4th Gen started with aespa... therefore Illit/BM/KIOF are 4th gen ggs as well!

    Yes another of those generation debates :rolleyes:.


    ________


    I claim that 4th gen started with aespa and truly kicked of in 2022!


    I think 4th gen started with aespa & stayC. It specifically picked up with Next Level in 2021, the first 4th gen national hit song and overall more specifically with the debuts of most major 4th ggs in 2022.


    Therefore groups like Idle and Loona are 3.5 gen. And groups like Everglow and Itzy debuted at an awkward time right at the end of 3rd gen yet before 4th gen actually started. Bad timing really. Hence the confusion.


    Also I think many of the ggs who debuted in 2022 were meant to debut in 2021 but because of the covid many debuts were delayed. So covid kind of prolonged the start of 4th gen by a year, the period being late 2020/21 to late 2022.


    So the debut of this gen lasted 2 years instead of 1, like the 3rd gen which kicked of around 2015/2014 with groups like Red Velvet, Twice, Gfirend, OMG, Lovelyz.


    Like aespa, Red Velvet started the 3rd gen, but it only fully took of with the debut of most 3rd gen gg in 2015.


    But because of covid, those debuts who probably would have happened in 2021 were delayed into 2022. So 2022 is like the 2015 of 3rd gen and by all rational and raisonable metrics.


    Think about it, a gen last around 7 years right? So if 3rd gen started around 2014/2015. 4th gen shouldn't have started before 2020/2021. Right around aespa/stayC debut.


    Also aespa and stayc debuted at the end of 2020. So if i had to chose approximatively, 4th was meant to debut around 2021. And because of the covid, there were some delays so it actually really kicked of for the most part in 2022 with the debuts of Ive, Ssera, NewJeans, Nmix, Fifty Fifty and XG lead by national hit songs such as Love Dive and Hybe boy.


    And if a gen last around 6/7 years, it means this gen will end around 2026/27. 2027 is probably the most raisonable date since most of 4th gen was actually deleyed/extended by one year. So the end of gen 4 should be as well.


    Therefore we are still deep into the 4 gen and therefore all the groups that debuted this year and even next year are still 4th gen groups. 4.5 gen more specifically.


    And everyone who says that they are 5th gen are either mistaken of either using the term to amplify their groups success by only comparing them to their 5th pairs or just a promotional tactic to appear more new and fresh or whatever.


    But in reality, it's not true and it’s misguided.


    Why if so many people question weither Idle/Loona is 3rd or 4th gen, then why shouldn't people seriously question weither Kiof/Illit/BM/Meovv/Katseye are also 4th gen?? (4.5 more specifically).


    And how if 3rd gen started in 2015/14, how can it end just 5 years later in 2019?? Just for Itzy's sake? Lol. Not questioning their impact of course, dalla dalla was huge! But a group alone can't judt start a whole generation.


    Obviously the more early end of the 3rd gen didn’t happen before 2020. Therefore we're still in the 4th year of gen 4th still. So how can groups that debuted in this year be anything but 4th gen???


    Please answer those questions...

    Unpopular opinion but imo what kick started 4th generation is COVID and the resulting lockdown.

    This started a new shit,a completely new era for kpop with its unprecedented expansion to the west, the boom of album sales, the development of new ways of approaching fandom activities (fancalls, online performances, tiktok, growth of social media activities, etc).

    Even after the lockdown a lot of those practices are still in place and the effect of the kpop boom in the west are still felt.

    Edited once, last by h28 ().

    The gens have become so stupid and basically just a way to market the group and make stupid achievements like "first gen X group to do Y". The fact that people can't even decide when they start/end says enough.

    I think us judging what Generation a group belongs to by their debut date is the problem


    A Groups "Generation" should align with the period of time they were at their peak not the date they happened to debut


    (G)I-DLE debuted during the Peak of the 3rd Generation of Kpop, but should be remembered as more of a 4th Gen Group

    Quote from foreveraespaaa

    I thought it started with Itzy in 2019 and Dalla Dalla was a hit too :!: Technically 4th gens first hit but I’ve accepted 4th gen started with Gidle and Stray kids :melon_think: it doesn’t make any sense to start in 2020/2021 and have 5th gen start 2023/2024 :oops: They should just scrap generations tbh each gen heading becomes less serious

    No 4th gen really started around 2021 and it specially kicked of with next level the first 4th gen national hit song. (And to a lesser extent Asap from stayC.)


    the problem is that many 4th ggs debut were probably delayed to 2022 because of covid therefore the confusion.


    I don't think a group alone can start a whole generation regardless of how big that song was (in general) and specially when 3rd gen wasn't fully over yet like with Itzy's Dalla dalla.


    So no, i don’t think itzy is 4th gen. Jyp's only 4th gen gg is Nmix. Period.


    But after Next level there was also Love dive and Hybe boy. THIS is the true 4th gen debut. Around 2021/22.


    It's kind off the 3rd gen equivalent of Ice cream cake/Cheer up/Dududu...


    And all these 6 songs belonged to the the representative groups of their generation.

    Quote from SleepingGiant

    I think us judging what Generation a group belongs to by their debut date is the problem


    A Groups "Generation" should align with the period of time they were at their peak not the date they happened to debut


    (G)I-DLE debuted during the Peak of the 3rd Generation of Kpop, but should be remembered as more of a 4th Gen Group

    GIdle and even OMG cases are peculiar. They're are still to me 3rd gen groups but which happened to get popular in the 4th gen. A bit like Brave girls.


    I wouldn't call any of this groups 4th gen. But they definitly had a huge impact in this current generation :thumbup: .

  • Tatiana1820

    Changed the title of the thread from “4th Gen started with aespa” to “4th Gen started with aespa... therefore Illit/BM/KIOF are 4th gen ggs as well!”.

    Not that I completely disagree, but that would make 4 generation incredible short :melon_think: as now companies are marketing newer groups as 5th gen etc I think it was more 4th gen is split into the earlier half and the latter. Pre Covid being earlier half and Post Covid being the latter - end of 4th gen groups. I just can’t wrap my head around 4th gen being 2/3 years :?: ( and I agree the generations have become stupid and more for bragging rights than actually for clarity in structure :huuh: )

  • AllKill VIP

    It started with (G)I-DLE and IZ*ONE.


    I mean it's kinda weird to think Wonyoung Yujin Sakura Chaewon are 3rd gen idols


    5th gen is a whole mess though there isn't anything I feel special about them that separates them from the current groups who are still in their peak era like aespa IVE (G)IDLE NJs LSFM they just feel like last 4th gen that have yet to peak since they just started

    Quote from foreveraespaaa

    Not that I completely disagree, but that would make 4 generation incredible short :melon_think: as now companies are marketing newer groups as 5th gen etc I think it was more 4th gen is split into the earlier half and the latter. Pre Covid being earlier half and Post Covid being the latter - end of 4th gen groups. I just can’t wrap my head around 4th gen being 2/3 years :?: ( and I agree the generations have become stupid and more for bragging rights than actually for clarity in structure :huuh: )

    that's because this 5th gen crap when we're deep into the 4th gen is just a marketing lie!

  • AllKill VIP

    for me it's like this


    generations in the past usually meant 7 years of contract + sometimes longer


    but modern day K-POP shifted due to the fact that major agencies are debuting multiple groups in shorter amount of time


    the problem is that most of K-POP fans can't comprehend and understand it, and many just think "oh but in real life the generation is like 10 years so why it's different here? it shouldn't bla bla bla"

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    Quote from icyruios

    It started with (G)I-DLE and IZ*ONE.


    I mean it's kinda weird to think Wonyoung Yujin Sakura Chaewon are 3rd gen idols


    5th gen is a whole mess though there isn't anything I feel special about them that separates them from the current groups who are still in their peak era like aespa IVE (G)IDLE NJs LSFM they just feel like last 4th gen that have yet to peak since they just started

    so you're telling me 3rd gen only lasted for around 4/5 years?? that it ended in 2018? when most 3rd ggs debuted in 2015? lol.


    a generation last around 7 years. six year is the minimum. obviously those groups like idle, loona, izone are 3.5 gen. Duh. And clearly.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from selfmate

    but who are you to decide who is or isn't in the 4th gen?

    timelines, not mnet or yg or whatever.


    a gen lasts around 7 years. the 3rd gen debuted around 2015/2014 so 7 years later is around 2021.


    the debut of 4th gen has just been slightly delayed by covid. so instead of them debuting in 2021, they did it in 2022. 2022 is the year 80% of 4th gen ggs debuted if not more with groups such as ive, ssera, njs, nmix, fifty fifty, xg...


    and who are the top 3 4th gen ggs? njs/ive/aespa and they all debuted around 2021/2022.


    Just like in the 3rd gen it was RV/Twice/BP who debuted between 2014/2016. and most 3rd gen groups who debuted in 2015.


    here is 3rd gen:

    TWICE, Red Velvet, GFRIEND, I.O.I - Girl's Present (youtube.com)


    here is 4th gen:

    [2022 MAMA] IVE&Kep1er&NMIXX&LE SSERAFIM&NewJeans - CHEER UP | Mnet 221129 방송 (youtube.com)

    Quote from Tatiana1820

    a gen lasts around 7 years. the 3rd gen debuted around 2015/2014 so 7 years later is around 2021.

    It looks like it's time to bring out the chart again:


    1592030135-1.jpg


    According to this figure, the Third Generation started in 2012, but there was an odd scenario where t‍he cut-off year for girl groups was shifted by t‍wo years to 2014.


    Thus, if things return to normal and girl groups and boy groups are aligned once again, a 2018/2019 start for the Fourth Generation makes a lot more sense.

    but it's not tho. it's different for ggs and bgs. bgs gens last longer. hence 3rd for ggs being around 2014/2015 with all the debut of gg like rv, twice, gfriend, lovelys, omg ... and a bit later bp.


    a since a ggs contract and general length of survival being 7 years, a gg gen also last that long overall.

    Quote from wsoet

    If the chart above is to believed, that hasn't really been the case until the Third Generation though. In the First and Second Generations, boy groups and girl groups were aligned in terms of starting years.

    well the industry changed during that time so... if it did take place, there was a reason for that. the fact is that it did. so end of discussion :wellr: .

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from Tru-Multistan

    The gens have become so stupid and basically just a way to market the group and make stupid achievements like "first gen X group to do Y". The fact that people can't even decide when they start/end says enough.

    This. The only thing that they are useful for is grouping groups by debut year, but they are obviously used as more than that, which is why you have crazy claims like a group is gen X.5 instead of X.


    I don't like the use of gens as it currently stands. I believe that they need to be defined by looking back, but it needs to be years back. For instance, you can't mark 4th gen's boundaries until you're in 6th or 7th gen, giving you enough time to look back and make distinctions in groups to see what separates them from 3rd gen and 5th gen. That's because we don't yet know what 5th gen will be about, so there's no way to mark the chabge between 4th gen and 5th gen in real time.


    Further, what defines the boundaries of gens seem to be companies and the media, which is okay. That's not an issue as long as we recognize that the only utility the generation labels has is grouping idols by debut year. If we want to use generations to have more meaningful conversations, then the reasons for dividing them have to be more meaningful than "the companies said so." It can be by the dominance of notable groups, or technologocal trends, expansion, or a combination of things, but simoly labeling by debut date won't cut it since groups can adapt to changes if they choose to do so.


    But at that point, we may as well just start using the term Eras to describe times. Generations is perfectly valid as long as it's used to describe debuts and only debuts since it would just be for categorization. Anything would need a different type of categorization.

    Aespa debuted in 2020, so if OP claim is that 4th Gen started in 2022, then Aespa is not 4th Gen.

    IMO, you're correct.


    The generations change when a shift happens across the industry, not just because fans of groups want to claim accolades.


    The shift is around 7 years due to the standard contract rookie contract length. When you account for the fact that both RV and Aespa's debuts were rumoured to have been brought forward to cover scandals, it's very possibly they would have both debuted about 7 years after their relative previous gen groups which lines up.


    2nd gen started when the Big 3 of WG, Kara, SNSD arrived in 2007. If you want to swap out Kara for 2ne1 or WG for T-ara you could with both in 2009.


    3rd gen was when the Big 3 of RV, Twice, BP arrived between 2014-2016, and these were the years that the previous generation started to decline for many groups.


    And now 4th gen, from when the current Big 3 of Aespa, Ive, NJ arrived from late 2020-2022, and again, this is when the previous gen groups started to decline as well.


    The timeline and the narrative fits. 5th gen should really be starting around 2026/2027.


    I'll never understand how Gidle and Itzy debuted less than 2.5 years after BP did, and somehow that's the generational change, when the Big 3 of BP, Twice and RV were still in their peak.


    IMO they are the 3.5 groups, like Sistar/AOA etc.

    Crazy how for GGs, 3rd Generation was only 4 years long.


    Even 4th Gen lasted 1 year longer (2018-2022)

    Imo it's simple. It started with itzy and txt debuts, but g idle and skz although debuted earlier (and loona and some other groups etc) are 3.5 gen because they got to interact with both sides the most.

    And all of the current groups are still 4th gen. It will only stop being when there's a massive gap between the current top 4th gen groups and rookies.

    Like when bigbang and snsd were so high they could only go down now, similar to bts bp twice and exo. Not that these groups fell but they just reached a stable success and solified their careers in a way the next gens could start to dominate.

    narcissistic, my god i love it

    JCsIq3Q.gif

    Quote from wsoet

    If the chart above is to believed, that hasn't really been the case until the Third Generation though. In the First and Second Generations, boy groups and girl groups were aligned in terms of starting years.

    Going by the chart.


    1st Gen started 1 year earlier for BGs. Both BGs and GGs end in 2003, but the chart skips 2004 for GGs, so I am not sure of the GG's 1st Generation includes 2004, I think we all assume it does.



    So 1st Gen is 8 years for both.




    2nd Gen BGs start in 2004, but GGs it looks like it starts in 2005. For BGs it ends in 2011, for GGs it ends in 2013.


    So 2nd Gen lasts 8 years for Boys and 7 years for Girls.



    3rd Gen Starts 2012 for BGs and 2014 for GGS; They both end in 2017.


    So 3rd Gen lasted 6 years for Boys and only 4 years for Girls.

    Quote from Varenka

    I don't like the use of gens as it currently stands. I believe that they need to be defined by looking back, but it needs to be years back. For instance, you can't mark 4th gen's boundaries until you're in 6th or 7th gen, giving you enough time to look back and make distinctions in groups to see what separates them from 3rd gen and 5th gen. That's because we don't yet know what 5th gen will be about, so there's no way to mark the chabge between 4th gen and 5th gen in real time.

    I was going to pop back into this thread to further explain why gens are silly, and why there is no way we can really define them by some fixed amount of years. Determining the generations in retrospect is probably the best we can do, and typically how I've seen other fandoms approach "eras" or the like.


    I mean how can we possibly be transitioning to 5th gen when arguably the 2 largest 4th gen groups (NJ and LSF) are barely 2 years old. It's why I actually kinda agree with tatiananumbers on this. Media and such may say the 4th gen started in 2018 but many didn't really accept the transition til much later since groups like Twice, BP, and RV were still VERY active and as big as ever.

    Quote from BEG4DAWIN

    1st Gen started 1 year earlier for BGs. Both BGs and GGs end in 2003, but the chart skips 2004 for GGs, so I am not sure of the GG's 1st Generation includes 2004, I think we all assume it does.

    So 1st Gen is 8 years for both.

    The First Generation started in 1996. The reason that nothing is shown for girl groups in 1996 is that no girl groups of note debuted that year.

    Quote from BEG4DAWIN

    2nd Gen BGs start in 2004, but GGs it looks like it starts in 2005. For BGs it ends in 2011, for GGs it ends in 2013.


    So 2nd Gen lasts 8 years for Boys and 7 years for Girls.

    We have basically the same situation as above. The Second Generation started in 2004. The reason that nothing is shown for girl groups in 2004 is that no girl groups of note debuted that year.


    Thus, up to the Third Generation, the start years are the same for boy groups and girl groups. However, they're back in alignment for the Fourth Generation.

    I think the 4th gen start from the Izone debut from show and changes the kpop environment.. There must be something changes to be considered the switch between each gens.


    Like KGP considered the debut of TVXQ as start of 2rd gen and EXO as 3rd gen with strong battle of Exo x Bts x Bap. Now ZB1 for the 5th gen. Gens changes also may be affected by the overall groups popularity and influence towards the gp

    Quote from Tru-Multistan

    The gens have become so stupid and basically just a way to market the group and make stupid achievements like "first gen X group to do Y". The fact that people can't even decide when they start/end says enough.

    In my opinion, it starts whenever you want it to start. So it's very subjective decision. Most groups are successful anyway. You can start from whichever you want. I agree with you the marketing strategy thing. I also think dividing this into periods is a narrow way of thinking. There are groups or singers active in every period. Moreover, I personally started to think that most of the newly released songs were far from the quality of the old songs.

    I wanted to make fun of people Half what? Anyone can listen to any group they want, I think it is wrong to divide them into so many categories. It's obvious that you say 3.5 and 4.5 when they don't fit any pattern. I think there is no such thing as a generation phenomenon anymore. It's a marketing strategy completely made up by people. ^^

    Well I disagree when the reason why 4th gen started was because BTS/BP where the top groups and all the records were held by them add the fact TXT was BigHit first BG since debut, Itzy first GG since Twice nowadays Baemon is 5th gen ? when they’re their first GG since Blackpink making no sense. Ive never seen SKZ/ Gidle being labeled 4th gen until TXT/Itzy so.

    plus 5th gen they’re fighting for debuting at the bottom of the charts, you just have to look at their records pretty meaningless.

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