Is it time to hold accountable Idols for messing up at their work ?

Most of idols spent most of their trainees period learning to dancing and then after debut they practice... more dancing

Your premise is wrong. Singing is not their primary job, and has been that way for at least 15 years

I'm not sure

Why would I hold people I don't listen to accountable?

I just ignore whoever is not pleasing to my ears and listen to people I like their singing.

Quote from SooYoung

wrong because most idols get vocal lesson in the morning and then spent the rest of the day training in dancing

so when you train pretty much everyday for 365 days doing decently should be the minimal

Most of idol barely have vocal training, watching a survival show that is mostly focused on trainees makes this quite clear. We can easily see trainees with 1 or even 2 years of training with no proper vocal training or basic singing technique knowledge

Companies do not care, if you're handsome and not lanky you will get dancing training and is likely to debut

Kpop shifted whatever they think about performances to becoming basically dancing.

The examples you gave in your thread are laughable. Aespa spent 2 years without singing live a single time in their lives. I can also count on my hand the times NCT performed live since the pandemic started, which was a group who used to perform live quite often during their rookies years. Now they are restricting live signing to concerts and closed events where only fans who already know and follow the groups can attend, disingenuous much?

It's quite clear singing is no longer idols primary jobs. It sucks? Hard time, I want live signing as well, but it's how the industry operates now. You'll be forever bounded to be disappointed if you expected otherwise

Aren't they hold accountable enough with being bullied online for years for one encore stage?

I disagree, dancing is the most important thing for idols, having a nice voice second actually. Good dancing = good stage presence is often equated. Unfortunately, the ability to sing alone is not enough for idols. If you look at the most popular groups, they are not the best singers, but they have unique voice tone, their dance choreography is good or their rap is strong.

Quote from Icaro_Ribeiro

The examples you gave in your thread are laughable. Aespa spent 2 years without singing live a single time in their lives.

Tell me you just follow twitter/kpop stans narrative without telling me you just follow it. Coachella is one of the most clean lives we got from a 4thgen group, the backtrack was very low, and aespa have sung live plenty times last year. Weekly music shows are another thing, but aespa didn't even perform a lot in them to begin with.

Tbh people keep saying the dance is more important, but I'm falling to see stand out dancers in most groups who lacks vocal skills. Yes, they're better in average than 2nd gen idols, but the main dancers aren't really interesting. If a group is average in every area (rap, vocals and dance) I can't stan, I think they have to stand out in at least one of these things.

Quote from Baeggi

Tell me you just follow twitter/kpop stans narrative without telling me will just follow it. Coachella is one of the most clean lives we got from a 4thgen group, the backtrack was very low, and aespa have sung live plenty times last year. Weekly music shows are another thing, but aespa didn't even perform a lot in them to begin with.

Coachella was precisely the moment they sang live. The quality of the singer don't matter, I'm not questioning wether Aespa has good vocalists or not: If their public appearances and performances are all lypsinced, it's clear the focus of SM is not selling their vocals. For all purposes, Aespa could have 4 Momos in the group and we would only discover when watching a concert

That's why OP promise is wrong: It's not their primary job to sing (as singing live)

Quote from Icaro_Ribeiro

Most of idol barely have vocal training, watching a survival show that is mostly focused on trainees makes this quite clear. We can easily see trainees with 1 or even 2 years of training with no proper vocal training or basic singing technique knowledge

Companies do not care, if you're handsome and not lanky you will get dancing training and is likely to debut

Kpop shifted whatever they think about performances to becoming basically dancing.

The examples you gave in your thread are laughable. Aespa spent 2 years without singing live a single time in their lives. I can also count on my hand the times NCT performed live since the pandemic started, which was a group who used to perform live quite often during their rookies years. Now they are restricting live signing to concerts and closed events where only fans who already know and follow the groups can attend, disingenuous much?

It's quite clear singing is no longer idols primary jobs. It sucks? Hard time, I want live signing as well, but it's how the industry operates now. You'll be forever bounded to be disappointed if you expected otherwise

Display More

What a complete response. Tbh, I don't really care about the lip syncing issues in kpop. It's a tool and technology to help the idols to improve their stage performance because it's not easy to sing live while dancing.

Kpop selling point itself is about its image. That's why kpop companies put a lot of effort in term of their groups' visual, choreography and concept more than care to give their idols proper vocal training.

No. Kpop doesn't need to be that serious. It's entertainment.

Quote from Baeggi

Tbh people keep saying the dance is more important, but I'm falling to see stand out dancers in most groups who lacks vocal skills. Yes, they're better in average than 2nd gen idols, but the main dancers aren't really interesting. If a group is average in every area (rap, vocals and dance) I can't stan, I think they have to stand out in at least one of these things.

Which is totally fine. I'm an EXO fan after all, their vocals is what sparked my attention many years ago. I like good dancing, but I'm completely ok with weaker dancing if this means performing live. Itzy sing live very often, but when they sing live their dancing start to get messy and sloppy, it's a trade-of

The point is what me, you or OP think doesn't matter. Companies do not give their idols proper singing training unless the idol is specifically scorted to sing. 4th gen male idols make this obvious, most of groups has just one singer (I can think some exceptions like Cravity and Treasure). The ones can sound fine, but they are not vocalists we can see them straining and sounding airing even on their confort range. This imply their singing skills are raw, they sing intuitively rather than technically

Quote from SooYoung

not necessarily people you don't listen to

your favs can messed up a performance to, then would you hold them accountable or just shield them with childish excuses ?

despite best intentions, I too sometimes mess up at work

Its not right to assume every single mess up is due to lack of work ethics

Not every company works like SM. There are idols who have primarily trained in rapping and dancing only. You don't need to technically be a good singer, if you are a legit rapper but it's very rare to see idols like that in kpop.

Quote from SooYoung

tbh i'm actually not seeing any groups who got praise for their dance skills and stage presence, but got bad feedback for their vocals being successfull right now

so i don't see where people are searching this stupid narrative

I have few groups from 3rd gen in my mind where people love to nitpicking on them about their vocals but they all have great stage presence. And they're very successful too, so... A lot of 4th gen groups also are like this where people praising their stage presence and dance skills but criticize their vocal skills.

I actually like all these groups and I think they're all great and didn't really find them lacking. But at least from what I see this is quite a popular opinions among kpop fans. Idk whether it's just a hate train or something tho.

Quote from thelightoftruth

No. Kpop doesn't need to be that serious. It's entertainment.

Sometimes I want to write a post about "being serious and seriousness in kpop"

But too lazy for that

Quote from SooYoung

tbh i'm actually not seeing any groups who got praise for their dance skills and stage presence, but got bad feedback for their vocals being successfull right now

so i don't see where people are searching this stupid narrative

IU and Taeyeon are currently the most dominant soloist in korea because they are super talented in vocals

other soloist like Sunmi or chungah etc... who focus more on performance than vocal, had a good run for 2-3 music and then had a free fall in popularity

and i can find much more example like this

Display More

I do think weak vocally groups do well too, but that's the same about dance. We have example of vocal groups who aren't at the top5 (Nmixx, Weeekly) and top dance groups who aren't in top5 too (Kep1er and Itzy). If anything, kpop success relies in visuals and concept. I'm annoyed too how weak dancers are called out more than weak vocalists, even in records weak vocalists lower the quality of a song, but I just don't listen to them a lot and that's it.

For a long-term career is better to have a good voice (and do slower and emotional songs). That's the reason I think Winter is capable to be the most famous soloists this gem. My bias is Karina and she's vocally capable too, but Winter is kinda similar do IU and Taeyeon.

i dont think they arent held accountable?

popular groups always get a lot of backlash for messing up their stages especially singing

but there's a lot of fans who take every criticism of their faves very personally and those will continue to shield them no matter what

idol is about the package (visual, dance, singing, personality, etc), the talent seeker for idol never focus heavily on singing talent, that why they named idol, its for difference with singer which focus heavily on singing talent

but yeah surely everyone will happy if idol can singing well, but dont hoping too much

Singing isn't the most important thing for an idol. Charisma is.

Whether that's being super hot, or cool, or funny, or interesting -- an idol who can stand out and make people interested in them is gonna be the most successful.

At this point, idols are rarely gonna be singing live anyway.

While the best & most succinct job title for a Kpop idol is indeed "singer," all I'm going to say is if vocals were actually the most important thing for a Kpop idol, they would not be a Kpop idol in the first place. Contrary to what all the self-important fighting in places like this would have you believe, Koreans don't even take (most) Kpop idols seriously as singers. They're also not the huge domestic celebrities foreign fans like to think they are. They're mostly considered fodder for teenagers. And you're over here obsessing over music show encores.

Their actual job duties, in order of importance:

1. Be charming & charismatic and have the "it factor" that makes people want to obsess over you & buy your crap

2. Look pretty (if you don't already have an "it factor," Dr. Kim will try his best to give you one)

3. Record your vocals, trying to minimize the amount of work needed by the producers to make you sound decent in post

4. Competently memorize & perform choreographed routines while lip-syncing to your recordings

5. Not sound like a dying cat on the rare occasion you have to sing live

That's it. Anyone who disagrees is wrong.

If you are a stanning a group for their vocals... why are you wasting your life? There are hundreds and hundreds of better professional singers in Korea.

For example

(5) 빅마마(Big Mama)의 킬링보이스를 라이브로! - break away,배반, 여자, 체념,거부,Never mind, 소리,이별, 그 후, 하루만 더ㅣ딩고뮤직 - YouTube

no female idol comes even close, and they are group not soloists.

i think in your mind, you think it's as easy as just practicing singing every day for a few years and you should be a highly skilled vocalist. but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. you can practice and practice and practice if you have no natural talent, but if you're someone like momo, you're never going to be a taeyeon and it doesn't matter how much work you put into it

add to that that most companies have terrible voice coaches, often ones that force a specific stylized way of singing that don't focus on technical skill, and a lot of these idols straight up don't have a chance. their company isn't focused on giving them healthy, strong vocals or proper training. they want them to look pretty and sound ok in songs. although in the newest gen it seems like groups are expected to have it all, vocals and dance and charisma and fun personalities, it wasn't always like that.

Quote from K-PL

If you are a stanning a group for their vocals... why are you wasting your life? There are hundreds and hundreds of better professional singers in Korea.

For example

(5) 빅마마(Big Mama)의 킬링보이스를 라이브로! - break away,배반, 여자, 체념,거부,Never mind, 소리,이별, 그 후, 하루만 더ㅣ딩고뮤직 - YouTube

no female idol comes even close, and they are group not soloists.

You can like kpop as a genre and still want to hear nice vocals. I'm the kind of person who listens to (almost) all kind of music, isn't a crime to try to find nice vocalists in those genres. Actually, I find even disrespectful when people try to act like the best kpop vocalists are mid just to justify their faves lack of vocal abilities. Uji, Taeyeon, Hyorin, Kyuhyun and others aren't good vocalists compared to other kpop idols, they're good vocalists and that's it.

Quote from Baeggi

You can like kpop as a genre and still want to hear nice vocals. I'm the kind of person who listens to (almost) all kind of music, isn't a crime to try to find nice vocalists in those genres. Actually, I find even disrespectful when people try to act like the best kpop vocalists are mid just to justify their faves lack of vocal abilities. Uji, Taeyeon, Hyorin, Kyuhyun and others aren't good vocalists compared to other kpop idols, they're good vocalists and that's it.

fyi When there used to be a site that had professionals doing vocal analysis of Korean idols and singers and the consensus was: IU was below average. All Mamamoo members were average. Taeyeon was above average. They stopped because kpop fans didn't like seeing the truth and plus most idols rarely improved which they can if they train.

Idol industry is for the most part an entertainment industry, not sports..... Why bother asking people to be held accountable? To brag? To talk shit and name dropping groups?

Quote from desdesdes

Sometimes I want to write a post about "being serious and seriousness in kpop"

But too lazy for that

I just think the standards pushed on to these idols are unnecessarily high.

Not every basketball player needs to be a Jordan or LeBron, or every soccer player like Messi or Ronaldo.

Why does every idol then need to be a Jennie, Seulgi, Karina or Jihyo?

It's okay to be a specialist, or a role player, or a developing rookie, or a wise old head that bring maturity to the locker room.

Just saying.

Quote from K-PL

fyi When there used to be a site that had professionals doing vocal analysis of Korean idols and singers and the consensus was: IU was below average. All Mamamoo members were average. Taeyeon was above average. They stopped because kpop fans didn't like seeing the truth and plus most idols rarely improved which they can if they train.

I know this kind of analysis, and a lot of famous west pop singers who are known for their vocals are in that average category. But you're wrong even in this take, IU is an average, Solar and Wheein are above average (if I remember well) and Taeyeon decent (or a similar term). Average is the category I consider a good vocalist, and good enough to be a main vocal.

Eh,I just really don't care enough for that lmao

They do their job as entertainers,and we all know that being an idol is far from easy.Let these people,or in recent years I should say KIDS,live and make their money.

Watching kpop survival shows, it's obvious how singing is like the least important when it comes to being a popular idol. Good vocalists always give the most to the performances, they are still the least liked by fans. (Totally shocked me in gp999 and boys planet as well) Expect when they are handsome enough (I love Taerae's voice/vocals, but lets be honest: he gained fans because of his visual not because of his vocal talent - which is sad -, otherwise Hui would be in his place).

And ofc when kpop companies see how is it in these shows , they gonna debut charismatic, visual dancers, instead of great singers.

Tbh, it's kinda sad and even undair but this is the kpop industry. It's pointless to search for something in it which is not there in the first place.

I think that's not fair. They don't get paid to be perfect every time, they get paid to entertain. They're human, and humans make mistakes and humans want to have fun every now and then. They shouldn't have to hate their job. Also, think of the standards that would be set for young kids who hope to be an idol. Being an idol would be so much more stressful when the expectation is that you have to be a performing robot.

Besides, I like it when idols mess up and are a little off. It's easier to remember that they're people too when they're not perfect. If their errors are due to laziness or lack of effort then that's a different story. They should be held accountable for laziness just like anyone else would.

I think the specialized roles of group members makes a group better. You shouldn't have to be a knockout singer to be the main dancer. I'd prefer that they do one thing extremely well. To be honest, I couldn't care less if a group was terrible at singing as long as I enjoy their music and they're fun to watch. Everyone has different strengths and we shouldn't make it so that only an all-rounder can be successful.

since when has kpop ever been all about vocals. For that matter, since when has pop music ever been about vocals. Plenty of super successful pop music artists are okay-ish at best at singing and still extremely successful, why? cause pop stardom is about the full package, looks, performance, vocal tone, songs, an image. Look at 1D, nobody could dance to save their life, 3 could sing well to okay, the other 2 were also there, yet a super successful act. The same goes for kpop groups.