Would you rather idols pay for their own training rather than accrue trainee debt?

It's a good system in theory. If may I add something, maybe:

1. More transparency.

2. Trainees should be allowed to have certain amount of control towards their spending.

3. If the trainees make it to debut, there's need to be some kind of way for the artist to have some earnings while they still paying their debt.

I would prefer it if companies don't charge for training at all. But I get not all companies are as rich as SM, JYP, YG, or HYBE. Still, I feel like if you can't afford to train trainees or debut them you shouldn't be operating an idol business. There are tons of other business ventures out their you can try instead of building your wealth off the backs of young people with dreams that will cost them all that they have. Doesn't seem ethical.

JYP impersonation lessons

Quote from MissBehave

I do think that the contracts should be heavily regulated though, the amount trainees are responsible for should be limited, and they should be able to wipe away the debt in certain circumstances.

Trainees that make it to debut only responsible for their own training fee, at least in theory. That's why I said in earlier post that there should be more transparency because this system is very prone to predatory behavior.

1. You have zero debt until you debut. Trainees that don't make it basically debt free when their trainee contracts ended.
2. You are debt free when your artist contract ended.

It’s only done by smaller companies showing how much of a scam it is. IMO if you can’t pay for your trainees you shouldn’t be a kpop company.

The entire trainee model is flawed to begin with. Trainee's should be viewed as an investment and should incur NONE of the costs of training. You don't make your investments pay for your investment in them. If a CEO doesn't have the kind of judgment to invest (deciding which trainee's are worth investing in), they should NOT be CEO of a K-pop company. Also, a child should NEVER have the ability to create debt they can carry in to adult hood. They lack the understanding of the consequences that entails. The trainee model is worse than the the depty slaver introduced in to the deep south of the US after the civil war because it involves CHILDREN.

Quote from MissBehave

gross.

History has happened, can not be changed, and the truth often hurts.

yeah

my favs were not going to debut if they had to pay for it

most of them were very poor

Maybe Onew and Minho could have afford it and thats a big IF

Jonghyun, Key and Taemin's family could have never afforded it

Quote from ApexApinkPanda

The entire trainee model is flawed to begin with. Trainee's should be viewed as an investment and should incur NONE of the costs of training. You don't make your investments pay for your investment in them. If a CEO doesn't have the kind of judgment to invest (deciding which trainee's are worth investing in), they should NOT be CEO of a K-pop company. Also, a child should NEVER have the ability to create debt they can carry in to adult hood. They lack the understanding of the consequences that entails. The trainee model is worse than the the depty slaver introduced in to the deep south of the US after the civil war because it involves CHILDREN.

please

every time someone in akp tries to make historical references, I end up fucking shaking my head

Quote from Lulu_Key

please

every time someone in akp tries to make historical references, I end up fucking shaking my head

If my history is incorrect, then correct me. Shaking your head doesn't do anything but give you shaken adult syndrome.

Quote from ApexApinkPanda

If my history is incorrect, then correct me. Shaking your head doesn't do anything but give you shaken adult syndrome.

we are not talking about historical accuracy here but drawing a line at where historical comparisons are acceptable.

In this case its nopped

I've never understood how trainee debt ends up being as expensive as it is. Vocal coaches don't have to be expensive and considering how many of those idols can't even sing when they debut, it doesn't look like they're worth much anyway.

I really think most of these idols would be better off sticking to school dance and choir than relying on their company

Trainee debt shouldn't exist. Companies are making an investment and the cost and risk should lie with them.

The only way that trainees should "pay" the company back is by having a smaller proportion of the revenue earned in their early days that scales up based on success and time.

I mentioned it in another thread, but debuted idols should have no debt, and a salary + bonus percentage of profit system of pay. The salary would go up over time and the bonus percentage would go up depending on a combination of success and time.

Quote from MissBehave

I wasn't referring to the history. I was referring to your assertion that the freaking kpop trainee debt is worse than the sharecropping system that black people suffered under in the deep south in the 1800s.

Life during that time was hard but the children could grow up and leave the plantation with out carrying their parents dept with them. In the trainee system, a trainee might not ever debut but still be strapped with a dept they began accruing at an age where they could not have understood what they were getting in to. The example may be extreme but it does get your mind working. I often use shock from historical events to get the point across. From the bit I've read, Korean courts almost always side with the companies. I honestly think Chuu had a lot of luck on her side. How is what she went through any different from a sharecropper. Only Chuu and the girls of Loona accrued a lot of that dept before they were even adults. How many of these children are trapped by trainee dept? How many get abused because that dept gets held over them. Chuu was making less than minimum wage in the US during the 2000's and she was the one in Loona that made money because she had all the extra activities.

Quote from ApexApinkPanda

In the trainee system, a trainee might not ever debut but still be strapped with a dept

It's not student loan, you are debt free when you're not making it to debut. Trainee contract is short, 1 to 3 years, and companies usually are the one that more eager to let their trainees go to reduce the cost.

Quote from ApexApinkPanda

Chuu and the girls of Loona accrued a lot of that dept before they were even adults. How many of these children are trapped by trainee dept? How many get abused because that dept gets held over them. Chuu was making less than minimum wage in the US during the 2000's and she was the one in Loona that made money because she had all the extra activities.

Loona don't have that much trainee debt, the members only trained for very short amount of time. The reason they don't earn money is because of that wicked ARTIST contract and the expensive cost of their releases.

------------
I think we need to differentiate between artist don't earn money because of their trainee debt and they don't earn money because they don't find any success. It's possible for JYPE or HYBE artist that don't have trainee debt to not earn any money in the span of their entire career.

Quote from MissBehave

I'm not even going to get into the sharecropping system because I'm on this site to have fun and trying to compare it to the system above will just infuriate me.

Fair point, It wasn't actually in intent to infuriate, maybe shock, but I am a random collection of explosive information. I often relate things normal people never would. I admit this, and sometimes it gets away from me. My filters are faulty and sometimes things slip out. Sorry for upsetting you or anyone else I did.

Probably pay themselves. It's best to not be in debt.

Quote from ApexApinkPanda

The entire trainee model is flawed to begin with. Trainee's should be viewed as an investment and should incur NONE of the costs of training. You don't make your investments pay for your investment in them. If a CEO doesn't have the kind of judgment to invest (deciding which trainee's are worth investing in), they should NOT be CEO of a K-pop company. Also, a child should NEVER have the ability to create debt they can carry in to adult hood. They lack the understanding of the consequences that entails. The trainee model is worse than the the depty slaver introduced in to the deep south of the US after the civil war because it involves CHILDREN.

Delete wtf. I didn’t read your full post. This is disgusting.

Quote from ApexApinkPanda

Fair point, It wasn't actually in intent to infuriate, maybe shock, but I am a random collection of explosive information. I often relate things normal people never would. I admit this, and sometimes it gets away from me. My filters are faulty and sometimes things slip out. Sorry for upsetting you or anyone else I did.

Stfu oh my god.

Banning trainee debt could make Kpop extremely exclusive. Only the wealthiest companies with enough excess cash to absorb the losses from failed groups, or entrepreneurs willing and able to take 7 figure risks, would be likely to start up a new group.

Since most seem to believe we've reached peak saturation in Kpop, this might actually be good news, as it reduces competition and allows existing groups more room to expand their fanbase and a better chance at remaining or becoming financially successful. The bad news of course is that only like 5-10 companies might end up being able to start up new groups. Big 4, Kakao, CJENM, and a few rando midtiers like Cube.

Trainees paying for their idol training would like students paying out of pocket for their entire tuition instead of using grants or loans. The numbers are too much.

I read somewhere a SNSD member on average cost $3million to train from 1st to debut day from their pools of thousands of potential trainees receiving thousands of hours of training in various fields. If an a 10, 11, or whatever year old is expected to pay that much for the course of their training with zero guarantee of debut or success post debut then their family wasted a fuck ton money. A fraction of that could’ve instead been spent elsewhere like university tuition fee which would likely give them a better and stable career path.

So I think I company should pick the costs and reclaim it as debt later on. Otherwise kpop simply wouldn’t be a financially sensible route for anyone unless their family is loaded.

Quote from harambelives

Trainees paying for their idol training would like students paying out of pocket for their entire tuition instead of using grants or loans. The numbers are too much.

I read somewhere a SNSD member on average cost $3million to train from 1st to debut day from their pools of thousands of potential trainees receiving thousands of hours of training in various fields. If an a 10, 11, or whatever year old is expected to pay that much for the course of their training with zero guarantee of debut or success post debut then their family wasted a fuck ton money. A fraction of that could’ve instead been spent elsewhere like university tuition fee which would likely give them a better and stable career path.

So I think I company should pick the costs and reclaim it as debt later on. Otherwise kpop simply wouldn’t be a financially sensible route for anyone unless their family is loaded.

No not that much, it's around $50.000~$110.000 a year per trainee (confirmed by mid agencies CEO and Bang Shi Hyuk). And that's for mid to big agency, it cost much less for smaller agencies.

Quote from nenen-kim

No not that much, it's around $50.000~$110.000 a year per trainee (confirmed by mid agencies CEO and Bang Shi Hyuk). And that's for mid to big agency, it cost much less for smaller agencies.

I found the article. Straight from Sm former ceo Kim young min mouth.

https://www.buttface.com/article/368430wpp/one-snsd-member-costs-3-million-to-find-and-train

(replace buttface with s00mpi because akp is donkey brained when it comes to that stuff)

I also remember around $2m being flung around at the time.

The cost comes from auditioning a shit ton of auditionees and the training a large number of them. SM has a massive pool of trainees and extensive training in all aspects like acting, language etc so that’s a lot of headway already. The potential ones are put into project groups and receive further and intensive training. At one point the SNSD project had 12 members with a few rotating in and out so the costs would rise.

So yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if cost that much to create SNSD especially seeing how extremely talented they were at debut even compared to modern debutees.

Quote from harambelives

I found the article. Straight from Sm former ceo Kim young min mouth.

https://www.buttface.com/artic…million-to-find-and-train

(replace buttface with s00mpi because akp is donkey brained when it comes to that stuff)

I also remember around $2m being flung around at the time.

The cost comes from auditioning a shit ton of auditionees and the training a large number of them. SM has a massive pool of trainees and extensive training in all aspects like acting, language etc so that’s a lot of headway already. The potential ones are put into project groups and receive further and intensive training. At one point the SNSD project had 12 members with a few rotating in and out so the costs would rise.

So yeah I wouldn’t be surprised if cost that much to create SNSD especially seeing how extremely talented they were at debut even compared to modern debutees.

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"He also explained that finding and training each SNSD member cost around $3 Million dollars per member. There are about 30,000 individuals who take SM auditions and only about 100 end up receiving training. The costs of doing an audition and training reaches nearly $3~5 Million."

He inflates all the cost of the audition and training all trainees that lead to SNSD formations and subtract it by 9. It's impossible to spent 18 million USD to train 9 people.

Nope to both and I want parents to wake their kids up from this unrealistic dreams of being an idol if they end up being under really small company with no money. How actually parents let their kids to make this dumb decision tbh.

Quote from nenen-kim

"He also explained that finding and training each SNSD member cost around $3 Million dollars per member. There are about 30,000 individuals who take SM auditions and only about 100 end up receiving training. The costs of doing an audition and training reaches nearly $3~5 Million."

He inflates all the cost of the audition and training all trainees that lead to SNSD formations and subtract it by 9. It's impossible to spent 18 million USD to train 9 people.

I know it’s all the cost, that’s what said earlier. Of course the members weren’t worth 3m each as kids that’s crazy, it’s the total cost to find and train them from 30k pool so in essence it cost 3m per member to go from 30k wannabes to final 9. So technically SNSD did cost $18m (or whatver the true figure is) to create.

An individual kid would probably still pay ludicrous money to join and train (like you said 100k) but companies do it on a much larger scale and costs ramp up with more people (more dorm rooms, more teachers, more equipment etc). If SM spent $3m per ember then each member paying 100k per year still wouldn’t close to cut it. 900k per year for 9 and if an average of 5 years training that’s $4.5m total, that only covers 1 members training according to SM costs. That’s why I think it’s the labels job to pay for everything then recoup their debts when the group starts making profit otherwise a ton of kids would have keep paying a ton of money over a number years to never be in debt at debut.

Quote from eunchaepower

option to eradicate trainee debt is to make trainees pay the company for the company training them, sothat no debt accrues.

Problem with this proposal is it would eliminate kpop overnight. If not severely drop it's quality. The debt trainees get is not just the idol training of singing dancing rap and music theory. it's also how to act and learn the idol image not including other things like school and being shuttled around be it idol schedule or personal stuff like going to school. Plus the company supplied housing. Idols often get top notch training even sent overseas for months to get the best dancing instructor for their image etc.

This stuff tens of thousands of dollars and in some cases millions of dollars. So making training an upfront cost would turn away the vast majority of people interested in becoming an idol, and to combat this lose, agencies will start trying to make it as cheap as possible by trying to find the cheapest quality training and cut corners, in the end you will have horrible idols to look forward to.