Some of my absolute faves that I'd recommend easily
Full metal alchemist (I know it's an anime but it's so well written and engaging it's better than a lot of TV shows)
It's always Sunny in Philadelphia
Doctor Who (though I haven't really liked it since Matt Smith left, Capaldi isn't really likeable and while I like Whittakker her stories are dog shit)
And there's more I'm forgetting lol
SNSD absolutely dominated Korea more than Twice. We all know SNSD as a music group but their bigger impact was outside music where they were seen as cultural icons rather than just another very popular music group. They were basically a mini entertainment industry by themselves
Japan is Twice (though SNSD, Kara and and everyone else careers in Japan was cut short because eof Japan essentially cutting back on kpop so who knows what could've happend)
Worldwide is tough. On the one hand Twice certainly has more exposure now due to better and more expansive tech and you could argue lots of even mid tier groups have more exposure than SNSD did for the same reasons (eg Momoland has a bigger viewed MV than any of SNSD's) but on the other SNSD were the biggest kpop group in the world at the time and directly responsible for expanding kpop globally in a time where kpop was almost non existent outside East Asia. It's a case of comparing different times which is very difficult but I think the popularity and impact SNSD had in their time was bigger than what Twice have in theirs currently.
Yay I can finally stay at home palying games in my underpants
Instead of currently working from home in my underpants
What's up with the coloured squares?
Also the pic needs more jpeg
I never called Taeyeon a weak leader. Let's not make assumptions. I said she didn't relish the leader position. It's exactly what she said. Numerous times she stated it was hard for her and said she's a timid person and all of the members are the same age and it was hard for her to do that. Later perhaps things were different. But initally, I do remember those exact words coming out of her mouth on quite a few occasions, Strong Heart being one I think.
Nor did I say that there was bullying within SNSD. I don't believe I ever stated that or intimated that there was ever bullying within SNSD yet most of your reply is centered around refuting that. Having disagreements and conflicts doesn't go straight to bullying. Don't assume please. I said that there was clearly conflict between Jessica and Taeyeon, which I also said I believed was unrelated to Jessica leaving. But I do not believe it was just SM pushing Jessica out and the other members not playing a part in it at all. Did I say bullying? Nope. I never said it was personal either.
I'm not sure what else to say because your reply is mostly all about how bullying could have never happened within SNSD and how their present relationship with each other proves that...yet I never stated that bullying ever happened within SNSD.
I simply said that Taeyeon didn't relish the leader position (initally atleast), how she didn't hide her dislike for Jessica between 2011-2013, and how it is of my opinion that Sunny would be better suited for the leader role. But did I ever say that Taeyeon did a bad job as a leader? Nope. But does that mean she did the best job anyone in the group could have done? I don't think so. Obviously, there's no way to prove since the oppurtunity was only given to one member. But you don't need a crystal ball to have insights into each member's personality. I do think Sunny is more oriented towards a leadership role or perhaps Tiffany. The thing Taeyeon has that they often don't though is that she seems calmer. Me saying that things might have been a tad different if Sunny had been the leader instead of Taeyeon doesn't in any way immediately translate to me saying that Taeyeon did a bad job. But I do think the leader of the group sets precedent for how a group should treat each other and if Taeyeon was openly ignoring Jessica on camera for close to 2 years. it sends the message that it's okay for a leader to treat a member in a very personal way above a professional way. Obviously Taeyeon didn't throw tantrums and say "I don't want to sing with her on stage". She was slightly professional but she didn't seem professional enough. And if this was happening between any 2 members besides Taeyeon it might seem different. A leader ignoring a member on camera just doesn't look the best, regardless of whoever is in the wrong.
It all just makes me curious as to what actually happened between them. Regardless of even if it was Jessica who was in the wrong and Taeyeon was simply reacting to her, after a few weeks one should collect themselves as a leader and go back to maintaining normal contact with the member she dislikes in front of fans. That's all I feel. It's simple. But you took it out of proportion and turned it into potential bullying within SNSD, how there could never have been any bullying based on the way they treat each other today and how close they are and so on and on.
Taeyeon isn't an example of a bad kpop leader nor is SNSD an example of a group that has been behaved poorly with each other. Atleast not compared to many other groups there. I never stated she or they are the worst. I stated that I don't think the leader should automatically be the oldest member. It's silly.
You can agree to disagree without jumping to conclusions about what I said. I don't think Taeyeon was the most fit to be a leader out of SNSD. I do think TWICE Jihyo is the most naturally fit to be a leader in TWICE.
Ok I agree you didn't explicitly say there was bullying in SNSD and whether Tae was part of in some way. But the thread is about bullying and you did say a strong leader should help prevent that. Then when you brought up Taeyeon and given then context of the thread I assumed you were trying to make a link a there. Apologies if I took the point and ran with it a bit too far.
But still I do have to disagree with most of your points. Sure Taeyeon and Jessica at times was hard to watch like at the same time they were still professional about it. We've seen recently how far idols behave BTS and how some have to suffer because of it but so far neither Taeyeon nor Jessica got up to any serious shit. And if anything did happen then surely one of them would've spoken up by now, particularly Jessica. But nothing. So other than pure speculation it's a moot point to assume they hated each and couldn't stand one another, maybe on camera they were awkward (Tae and Hyo are the self confessed awkward couple but you don't see any irritation between them for edample), maybe it's we just saw everything out of context or maybe they really did have problems. We simply don't know.
As for other members being leaders, like I said, there's no gauge for counts as a good leader. All the members like and respect Tae, she's a good speaker and a good entertainer (when she's feeling well). Imo that's hallmarks a of a good leader, I don't see what exactly someone else could bring to distguish themselves as being better.
You brought up Sunny. She's mentioned multiple times that she likes being on her own (she's more like a homebody with cats nowadays lol) and shes more hands off. On solo TV apps she's regularly been more mellow and less of the hectic SNSD member we've seen her as. Arguably you could say that this is Sunny true nature which would go against the usual strong leader types and is actually closer to Taeyeon in personality. Someone like Tiffany is more outspoken sure but let's not forget for years she was the weakest at Korean and often the but off jokes bceuase of it. Non fans looking on would simply see a person who can't even speak properly somehow attempt to take control of other strong willed girls and you can bet your house antis would have a field day with her, I mean they already think she's fake and puts on a happy go lucky personality and that's her being her. Having a leader be targeted that much would really affect her and maybe even affect peoples image of the group.
For all it's worth I think Taeyeon did and a fantastic job and Sones have seen SNSD dynamics enough that sure another member might bring something new to the table but there's no guarantee that it will anything radically different. After all like I said SNSD can function without a leader telling them exactly what to do so even if say Sunny was in change who's to say for example Hyo, Soo and Yuri don't get up to their usual mischief because if they do then nothing has fundamentally changed. It's still SNSD, they'll do things their way regardless of who the actual leader is.
I don't follow Twice so I don't know how Jihyo is but I could simply look for clips or whatever and find instances of other members doing better jobs or Jihyo herald not acting as expected of a true leader and then I could say X should be leader isntead. Imean from shows I've seen of them at times it seems like Nayeon is the more outspoken and out going character so I could argue she's more leader material in her than Jihyo. That is obviously an unfair of doing things and if people do that to Taeyeon then of course they'll have perceptions of hich may be out of context or be farther than the truth, which ignoring her role as leader has HEAVILY affected some casuals and Antis views on her and led to her to getting a shit toon of hate
That's of course true too but I was speaking in addition to that. The role of the company and managers has always seemed the most important to me. I was speaking of my newer discovery- recently, I've come to see that the leader plays a big role too. I never said the company isn't responsible or that the leader trumps the company.
The company is undoubtedly the most responsible. Knowing tensions can arise within a group, it's up to the managers to check on all the members and help anyone if they need help.
But I don't agree with saying that the problem isn't the leader. No, with Korea's age and power hierarchy I do believe that a kind, fair and caring leader is essential to a group.
"As we've seen leaders can be involved or passive in bullying. So even if there a strong leader who's to say they aren't part of the problem too?"
But that's exactly what I'm saying. The leaders who are involved or passive in bullying aren't strong leaders. To be a strong leader is not to be simply assertive.
It is to be kind, caring and have a high moral standard.
I would honestly doubt bullying in a group where the leader is the kind that I just described.
It helps set the tone for the group and establishes the group dynamic.
Twice have time and time again attributed one of the reasons for why they barely argue as a group to Jihyo's ability to gather all the girls' opinions on something, organize it and mediate discussions.
Unrelated, but I do feel if SNSD had a leader who really relished the role, the group dynamic might have been a bit different. As we know, Taeyeon offically stepped down from the leader role early on and didn't enjoy it much and didn't feel they really need one as most of the members are the same age. She said she's not overly assertive and it was hard for her.
Now, I really like Taeyeon and it's fine if she didn't want to be the leader. I think it's absolutely silly and rubbish that they give it to the person with the first birthday anyway. It should be given to the one who really wants the leader role and whom the other members vote for as well.
Taeyeon was never the enforcing type. She wasn't the kind to enforce things a certain way or establish rules. She's a bit more independent and free-spirited, along with being quite opinionated and stubborn I think.
The job of a leader is also to mediate between the other members and prevent arguments from getting out of hand.
Now, I don't believe that the weight of it all falls on Taeyeon (or any leader) alone. Obviously, it is up to everyone.
But I do think when a leader is more of an enforcer (in a good way), more likely to check on all of the members and set rules and organize opinions and basically, in short, someone who enjoys managing people, then it really can help the group.
All of SNSD is getting along fine except for Jessica.
And I don't believe that is Taeyeon's fault as a I said. I think things went on behind the scenes both from SNSD's side and Jessica's side.
But as we've seen, from 2011-2013 Taeyeon and Jessica had a bit of a fall-out. I do not think this fall out was directly related to Jessica's departure (the two had become friendlier with each other in 2014). But, it did say something about the group dynamic. Jessica would try to interact with Taeyeon in front of fans but Taeyeon would not reciprocate. We don't know what went on behind the scenes. Maybe Taeyeon was really hurt by something and could not fake her feelings. We can't say who was in the wrong. But for the sake of being a little professional and for the sake of the group dynamic (makes things a little awkward for the other members too), one could behave in a more friendly and polite manner even if something's going with their group member.
I do think the group dynamic of the other girls with Jessica might be just a tad different if Sunny had been the leader. But I can't say.
And I am a fan of all the members individually. I like Taeyeon and Jessica a lot especially. I just find it strange how they pretend they never had 9 members. It seems almost silly and immature.
Wait wait so letme get this straight. You think a strong leader would be one that strpops or prevents any bullying going and keeps them in line yet you single out Taeyeon as some sort of weak leader when all the evidence trough the years directly and categorically disputes your assumption of her.
Also need to clear up some misconceptions.
First Taeyeon never stepped down. She literally said onhee radio show that it was scripted or whatever and she will forever be SNSD leader. Nothing changed.
Second the SNSD v Jessica was never about the girls having problems with Jessica on a personal level, it was about her business and whatever issues SM had, that to this day no one outside the girls and Sm has any concrete idea on what went down. Everything is speculative. Jessica herself never bright up any mention of issues with the other members such as bullying as the reason why she was kicked out. Even if Taeyeon had some personal problems with Jessica, that never got in the way of the group (they were actually being all chummy and huggy in 2014 photos/events up to Jessica gate) as at the very least they were professional with each other in terms of the group as in they didn't publicly fight to or shit on each in the media. Otherwise you can bet Jessica would've certainly brought it up
Now SNSD as a group have gone though a ton. They're the most popular and successful gg in Korea ever, they changed kpop forever, helped put on the international stage and along the did a number of firsts and set records. They had the highest highs and at time she lowest lows. Yet through it all, even when half group is no longer in the same company they're still super close with each other (yesterday Tae, Soo and Hyo went to Tiff musical). As we've seen recently there are groups that don't last a quarter as long as SNSD and there is already bullying going on. Some from the beginning of their groups debut. But in 13 years SNSD never had a bullying issues. So by your own logic the should have a strong leader right?
Speaking of leader Tae herself has many times put the fans and group at the forefront. She always thanks fans, introduces herself as SNSD's Taeyeon and backs up SNSD and Sone, and even apologises to fans if she's in a scandal. She's regularly mentioned she loves her members to bits and epgets extremely lonely without them, one of the reasons why she doesn't promote as a solo. Her members have said she is always their leader and they follow what she says. In fact the members love and support Tae just as much (esp with her depression) as she does back. At times theyve taken care of her if she's getting unwell or taken the lead if there something they're better at (like sports or comedy).
BUT SNSD aren't a group of mindless drones who rely on their leader to do anything, they still know how to behave without relying on Tae to keep them in check. They don't need Tae to tell not to bully each other, they don't need her to tell them to hang out, they don't need her to live their own lives and son on. It's not like their all quiet and obedient either, SNSD has strong personality like Hyoyeon, Tiffany, Sooyoung, Sunny and they don't lord it up over the rest or undermine Taeyeon. Hell SNSD even forgoes the whole age seniority thing and just let the younger ones have a greater rule in the group because they're more of the trouble makers and the older members dote on them (even Seohyun can shit talk about her members, Seohyun who is super prim and proper).
I see the regular argument of if X was leader they would do a better job or if Y was. Imean how would you know? What criteria would you use to decide who makes a better leader compared to Tae? If under Taeyeon there hasn't been any bullying then if say under Sunny like you think should be leader there's also no bullying then what exactly was the reason to replace her? It's "fixing" a problem that wasn't there. If another member wanted to be leader then they certainly could try BTS, like I said they have strong personalities to do so but at the end of the day all members have always seen Tae as their leader so what would be the point of replacing her?
You say Jihyo of Twoce wouldnt stand for bullying but other than your own assumptions of her as fan there's no 100% guarantee that she wouldn't? Maybe there was an issue and she stood by doing nothing, maybe she was the instigator, maybe there never was an issue. How do you know if another member was in charge there wouldn't be any any problems? Simple, you dont. You can only judge on the past and now. Same as Tae and SNSD.
If you're eveidnce is simply your own assumptions and based on what you/fans have noticed within Twice then I don't see why you look at SNSD and immediately assume Taeyeon must be a weak leader even though like Jihyo and Twice there hasn't been any bullying scandals. If anything going through all the highs and lows, lasting soon to be 14 years and still regularly being close with each shows Tae, by your own idea what a leader should be is in fact a strong leader.
As we've seen leaders can be involved or passive in bullying. So even if there a strong leader who's to say they aren't part of the problem or even the root of it?
I think a bigger role should be on companies. If a idol says they're being bullied then they should look into it properly instead of handwave boys/girls will be boys/girls. That sort of scenario happens in schools where teachers are aware or told about bullying but they don't act on because of guidelines or some bullshit excuse and if they do often the punishments are very weak like a couple days suspension. That does nothing to sort the situation and only keeps the victim in pain. If companies have a zero tolerance policy then a lot these problems won't continue and the victim at least has a way out of their predicament instead of silently suffering for years and years
I'm a cancer but I don't have cancer. Checkmate atheists
Hyoyeon is probably potentially the best out of the lot. She's seen the very summit of kpop, highly experienced and knows how things work BTS. Personality wise she's really friendly and even a bit childish for lols but still extremely professional when she needs to be.
Others would be hyolyn, Hyuna and Jessi
A mixture of both but leaning towards diverse, like a 70:30 split for diverse to staying same. I want my faves to try new styles and concepts otherwise it would get boring but I also don't want them to lose their identity eg: they fully commit to anti chorus songs and don't sing anymore despite previously being well known for their singing ability.
You gotta be brain damaged and/or brain washed to go after tthe victims fans as some sort of crusade for oppa being a dickhead in the first place. Like actor like fans I guess lol.
That particular SNSD v 2ne1 moment was probably the most "heated" it got because everyone and their mum knew YG was using SNSD to build hype and obviously it would be them head to head for the first time. For the first time the was a some actual animosity going around because both fans wanted their faves to win on shows so everyone thought things will get a too serious this time...
Then that infamous 4 minute win out of nowhere became the highlight and both Sone and BJ had a good laugh about it lol.
Then the fan war ended because both groups had a shitty 2014
There was more continuous fighting pretty much all through both groups careers but the main difference compared to now was that back then overall it was much much more jokey and trash talking instead of the hate and vitriol nowadays.
Sone V Bj used to rely on memes to shit on each other. It was actually entertaining and kinda fun especially with creative ways ssome used (making YouTube videos, making shitty GIFs etc).. These days it's extremely toxic and even dangerous: fake rumours passed off as fact, cancel culture, death threats, doxing, bullying and so on.
UK. Our government is greedy as fuck and extremely out of touch with the normal everyday people (just look at brexit) so I guess we would do an equivalent of the Sokovia accords from Captain America civil war, either you follow the gov laws (which they no doubt will find a way to make money from heroes) or your an illegal vigilante that no one should look up to. Basically Boris Johnson would be J Jonah Jameson
I'm just trying to get a consensus because when Joy did it some people didn't like it
I see, In that case I personally think CA with hair idiotic because everyone has hair, everyone should be allowed to do whatever they want with it regardles of race or sex or even of looks good or not (I have acouple old embarrassing pics of me trying to copy Beckham's mohawk hair back in theday lol)
Do you want her to be cancelled?