What do you think is ITZY's main problem?

They are old KPOP hates old people

I think it's a mixture of things.I think their title track selection hurts them the most. How do you select Cake as a title track instead of kill shot? They also did a similar thing in 2024 when they had Gold as a title track instead of Imaginary friend. think there's interest in Itzy but I feel title track selection is why they're not bigger than they should be. Also, their comebacks does not have a big event feel compared to their peers. Maybe it's marketing because I feel they do some interesting things but it might not be the right thing to get the attention of people outside of fandom.

i think their biggest hurdle at the moment is their reputation. I think most people outside of the fandom feel they're not worth checking due to questionable title tracks. Also, think how long they've been in the industry for means it's hard for growth domestically but they still have a shot to perform well outside of Korea

Lastly, I'm unsure how important it is for Itzy to chart well domestically when they sell a healthy amount of albums, and they have the ability to go on a world tour.

The general public does not think they're cool enough to listen to and thinks they're dated because they don't sound like Aespa or New jeans.

Quote from SooYoung

I've said it a million times, and even if people are delusional to disagree it's only because they live in an idealistic world

I voted none of the above but not because I think they are doing great

but because of the main problem of Itzy isn't their music or their vocals anybody can make this work

Their main problem is because Itzy have absolutely no branding or identity

they are just a girl group in the middle of hundred, thousands of other girlgroup

and I can see people come here saying " yeah but itty is a performance girl group that's what make them stand out"

Yeah their main focus is performance and ? what will make Itzy different when 5 other GG focus on performance like Lesserafim, Babymonster etc....debut ? Nothing will make them stand out among all the other GG focus on performance

A lot of Kpop fans are young or very delusional about the music industry and think that because you release a good song you'll find success

Give to Itzy any successful song like Whiplash, Hype Boy, ....and it'll flop and never reach the success that these song reached when they were released by the other groups

People need to understand that music is a product like any other product, like foods etc....

You don't go to your supermarket and think "oh I'll buy this new drink that I saw here"

In fact you'll never consume this new drink , because you'll never notice that this drink exist

and why ? Simply because you saw no marketing or branding around this product

it's the exact same thing in music nobody is going to listen to your music if you don't make them want to listen to your music by the way your marketed and branded

Music start by the eyes before the ears, when you go on the new releases playlist, most people when they want to discover a new music, will click on the album cover that interest them the most

now let's use some example in music to prove how important is marketing and branding in music

Charli XCX released her first music album 12 years ago and she really blew up 2 years ago, her music was good, most people knew her name, but nobody was really giving her a chance

until she decided to brand and marketed the whole Summer brat , and it make everybody curious to know what was behind this green flashy color etc...

I've been a fan of Troye Sivan Music since 2014 when nobody cared about him, and pretty much nobody knew his name,

and the day he started to dive deeper into the androgynous Twink aesthetic, it make him stand out from all the other male singer and he started to blew up with rush

same thing with Zara Larsson, she have been flopping for some years now, after pretty successful debut,

in fact her last tour had trouble to sell out

and she's currently having a revival in her career after diving into the Y2K aesthetic that have been used a lot

but what makes her stand out is that she took influence from this era that weren't explore by other artist yet

she mix the Frutiger aero aesthetic with the aesthetic of Lisa frank

In summary I feel like Itzy is trying to be too generic thinking that because they doesn't take any risk in term of branding and marketing they'll fit the taste of the most people

but because of their lack of risk they just end up drowning into the mass of Girlgroup who are currently promoting

if you look at all their latest release, teaser, photo etc.... it's giving nothing besides "they are a girl crush gg"

but this type of thing doesn't bring you far unless you're Blackpink and kinda cemented yourselves as THE GC GG

Itzy need to stop being afraid to stand out and accept it and not be afraid to not please to the majority of people

yes at first some people will might not like their brand (for example like aespa with the whole AI)

but it'll make people who aren't even fans but just curious to see what this new image will bring musically check out their music

Display More

Great post, and you're right that branding is everything. I also like your points about western popstars because the ones that experienced a new level of fame improved their branding and marketing which is why they're finding mainstream success. Charli is very interesting because she attempted mainstream success with Crash and created a more traditional pop album, but most people didn't check it out because there was no marketing hook for it. She then improved the branding and marketing for her next project Brat, and had one of the best promotional rollouts ever.The funny thing about Charli her latest project is the polar opposite of Brat and I'm unsure the new fans she gained are going to like her latest project

I find the current landscape of pop interesting because a lot of the artist that left their labels found success when they had more creative input. For example, I never thought Raye would find mainstream success but she left her label and started making better selection for songs to include in projects. She also changed her image and how people will perceive her music which is now paying off. Your Zara point is similar to that because she was more known as the edm pop singer but she tapped in to Y2K and humbled herself to tour with Tate McRae. I feel those 2 moves helped get her name out there again and have people check her music out because her image changed and people are now willing to check out content. Also, a similar thing can be said about Sabrina Carpenter because she improved her branding and image when she made the album emails i can't send.

The above is why it's a shame in kpop we can't really have rebrands or revival for groups and soloist because people are quick to move onto new acts. I think kpop would be a healthier environment if artist had the opportunity to bounce back. At the end of the day, branding and image matters a lot because you can give a group a song that is charting well but it won't matter if their image and branding isn't there. I fully agree that if Itzy had the song Bang Bang it wouldn't have anywhere near the success and recognition due to the Itzy brand.

ITZY's problem is not their "lack of identity"

Nothing. They are a fourth-generation group, and we’re in the fifth. Their push just ended.

Are we seriously using AI as a basis for debate now?

While they aren't a strong group vocally, I don't think that had anything to do with their apparent downfall. It's Kpop, no one cares about vocals except for a few discerning critics on the Internet. The problem is obviously the quality of the title tracks they were given, and also their inability to grow out of the same goofy style of song they've been doing for the past 7 years. Outside of a few experiments, such as Imaginary Friend, they haven't been allowed to mature over time, which is vital to retaining a fanbase that isn't frozen in time.

Kpop is generally not kind enough to "older" groups to allow for them to rebound and compete with their more popular contemporaries if they've faltered, so "what's wrong with Itzy" is actually a bit of a moot discussion at this point. They'll just continue doing what they do until either their contracts expire or JYPE loses interest, likely with no growth if past trends are any indication, and that is really all there is to it. They're considered a "mature" product, ironically enough.

JYP

Quote from Popper-of-Ks

Are we seriously using AI as a basis for debate now?

literally what i thought lmao

Quote from CaraFIMIE

literally what i thought lmao

like, i know damn well we're not flexing the fact that a group's branding/identity is based on AI

I didn't listen to the AI version of songs. I think their point is songs wouldn't have the same effect if performed by Itzy due to their reputation/brand. I believe they're right, but you can say that with most artist because a lot of the time the name is what sells a product.

I think their point remains valid because in pop music the branding and marketing of an artist is what gets people to listen. The major issue with kpop groups and soloist don't really get the luxury of rebranding or turning things around.

Anyway, at all doesn't matter much if they're charting well in Korea when group is performing well outside of Korea. They're doing well enough in Korea where they can have multiple dates in sold out venues.

Quote from StanGIDLE

I didn't listen to the AI version of songs. I think their point is songs wouldn't have the same effect if performed by Itzy due to their reputation/brand. I believe they're right, but you can say that with most artist because a lot of the time the name is what sells a product.

I think their point remains valid because in pop music the branding and marketing of an artist is what gets people to listen. The major issue with kpop groups and soloist don't really get the luxury of rebranding or turning things around.

Anyway, at all doesn't matter much if they're charting well in Korea when group is performing well outside of Korea. They're doing well enough in Korea where they can have multiple dates in sold out venues.

Branding does matter; I'm not denying that.

But that's not ITZY's problem and that's not what I meant by bringing up the AI point.

You can't tell me that branding is ITZY's problem when groups like LE SSERAFIM is trashed all-round the board for lacking an identity..yet they are still out-performing ITZY in most metrics.

Probably marketing

Even if we here didn't like some songs that wouldn't prevent them from charting

Many songs we hate chart well, all the time

they released the string of sneakers, boys like me and cheschire, and other girl groups were doing much cooler songs so they got dropped.

Quote from CaraFIMIE

Branding does matter; I'm not denying that.

But that's not ITZY's problem and that's not what I meant by bringing up the AI point.

You can't tell me that branding is ITZY's problem when groups like LE SSERAFIM is trashed all-round the board for lacking an identity..yet they are still out-performing ITZY in most metrics.

Marketing plays a big part into things and the marketing build up for every LSF project is top tier. Source Music knows how to create intrigue with every LSF comeback and that influences people to check out every LSF project. I like Itzy but their marketing has been shaky for many years which is why they're not generating anywhere close to the hype as the other top groups.

Even though there's negativity surrounding the LSF brand, it doesn't fully impact people checking out music. At the moment their reputation is known for fun songs and experimenting with different genres. Those facts doesn't harm LSF performance because people are expecting a fun song or a song that will improve when watching them perform. All of the negativity surrounding them with vocals and other things doesn't affect charting or sales.

On the other hand, Itzy brand and reputation is known for making polarizing music. Their music isn't always public friendly it's why they aren't charting that well these days. They're known as one of the best performers but that doesn't get people to check out music, but it will get people to attend their concerts because they know they're going to get their money worth. Anyway, it's why the negativity surrounding Itzy affects them because the stuff people are negative about are reasons to impact charting success.

Here's a question for you, what was the last memorable Itzy concept and challenge? I think this is a big reason why they're behind the other groups when it comes to charting. Again, it doesn't matter much imo because they most likely maximized Korea and they're having a lot of success outside of Korea. I don't think any group is having a problem if they're able to go on a world tour and sell out most venues. That is something Itzy is able to do and they should be proud of that because not many groups can do that.

Vocals for me. Yuna and Ryujin are some of the worst subvocalists in kpop, I know most subvocalists are usually bad but these two are just beyond saving. Yuna sounds like a 10 yo old kid, and Ryujin is always trying too hard.

Yeji's solo is arguably their best work to date and it's because it didn't involve the 2 non-singers. Lia and Chaeryeong have pleasant tones but the song selection combined with their lack of skills just renders it all useless. Itzy always had weak vocals but they used to be great until Sneakers. Idk what happened after that maybe its because of Nmixx (another JYPE GG) and other powerful vocal groups like aespa and BaeMon debuting that people have started noticing and calling out Itzy's terrible vocals more. And they are now at a point of no return.

Quote from StanGIDLE

Marketing plays a big part into things and the marketing build up for every LSF project is top tier. Source Music knows how to create intrigue with every LSF comeback and that influences people to check out every LSF project. I like Itzy but their marketing has been shaky for many years which is why they're not generating anywhere close to the hype as the other top groups.

Even though there's negativity surrounding the LSF brand, it doesn't fully impact people checking out music. At the moment their reputation is known for fun songs and experimenting with different genres. Those facts doesn't harm LSF performance because people are expecting a fun song or a song that will improve when watching them perform. All of the negativity surrounding them with vocals and other things doesn't affect charting or sales.

On the other hand, Itzy brand and reputation is known for making polarizing music. Their music isn't always public friendly it's why they aren't charting that well these days. They're known as one of the best performers but that doesn't get people to check out music, but it will get people to attend their concerts because they know they're going to get their money worth. Anyway, it's why the negativity surrounding Itzy affects them because the stuff people are negative about are reasons to impact charting success.

Here's a question for you, what was the last memorable Itzy concept and challenge? I think this is a big reason why they're behind the other groups when it comes to charting. Again, it doesn't matter much imo because they most likely maximized Korea and they're having a lot of success outside of Korea. I don't think any group is having a problem if they're able to go on a world tour and sell out most venues. That is something Itzy is able to do and they should be proud of that because not many groups can do that.

Display More

Then their problem IS marketing and song choice, not branding. Or even vocals.

ITZY has a good branding (or as a good as a kpop group's can get), but what consistently jeopardizes it is JYP's inability to market it properly.

ITZY last memorable concept was Imaginary Friend imo, and I remember it gaining some traction, but JYP did not take advantage of that properly.

IMO, this long and nonsensical conversation about musical identities and branding is something insufferable stans made up to make their faves sound more interesting. Does it matter? Sure, you can say that. However, it is as simple as: if the song is good, people will listen to it. As I was saying to monalisalove yesterday about title tracks, ITZY has good songs, even post-Sneakers era. What made people ignore that was JYP's choice for the title tracks because that is the only thing that piques people's interest in the release.

Most will skip the entire album if the title track is a nothingburger and it does not have to be awe-inspiring--it just has to be interesting enough to have people check out the rest of the album, which has not been the case for ITZY.

Quote from CaraFIMIE

Then their problem IS marketing and song choice, not branding. Or even vocals.

ITZY has a good branding (or as a good as a kpop group's can get), but what consistently jeopardizes it is JYP's inability to market it properly.

ITZY last memorable concept was Imaginary Friend imo, and I remember it gaining some traction, but JYP did not take advantage of that properly.

IMO, this long and nonsensical conversation about musical identities and branding is something insufferable stans made up to make their faves sound more interesting. Does it matter? Sure, you can say that. However, it is as simple as: if the song is good, people will listen to it. As I was saying to monalisalove yesterday about title tracks, ITZY has good songs, even post-Sneakers era. What made people ignore that was JYP's choice for the title tracks because that is the only thing that piques people's interest in the release.

Most will skip the entire album if the title track is a nothingburger and it does not have to be awe-inspiring--it just has to be interesting enough to have people check out the rest of the album, which has not been the case for ITZY.

Display More

I agree that most kpop fans only listen to title tracks and will skip b-sides and even the promoted b-sides. It's why title track is key. However, Itzy still doesn't create memorable concepts and challenges to get people talking. Their lead up to their title tracks is far behind other groups which is why it seems hard for them to turn things around domestically when talking about Itzy's reputation and chart performance.

I agree that imaginary friend is a wonderful song and they should've marketed that instead of Gold . However, as a concept it didn't really get people talking but it should've been something to help them build interest for the follow up. It could've been their High Horse where it got people talking about the song and performance but they didn't do much with it's limited hype.

I feel if we put Itzy against LSF, Aespa, NewJeans, IVE, and Idle we can see their concepts and ability to generate hype is behind the others. I know Idle seems to be on the decline regarding that but it feels they're better at creating concepts to get people interested.

Quote from SooYoung

And I disagree that Kpop act can't rebound that's wrong

the moment you able to market yourself and brand your group well it will make people expect and keep an eye on your comeback and it'll give you better result

Red velvet is a group that had a successful rebound because they were able to listen to their fans feedback

they were having mid success for 2 years (2018-2019) and when they start to listen to the fans asking for darker concept they comeback with Psycho and had the most successful release of the year

a recent example is Kiiikiii too, their debut made a lot of buzz with their aesthetic

but then starship decided to give them nothing for the teaser of Dancing alone and they released the song and everybody ignores it, most people didn't even know they released a new song

Display More

I was talking more about groups 5+ year out. I never really viewed RV as being down and just thought they had a misstep with Birthday. Maybe I view RV differently regarding that becuase I was just getting into kpop around that time, so I would have different views regarding that.

As for KiiiKiii I didn't really view them as down and I view a group as being down when it's multiple years of things working well rather than a comeback or 2. There's plenty of stories of groups having turnaround after polarizing comebacks

Quote from CaraFIMIE

Then their problem IS marketing and song choice, not branding. Or even vocals.

ITZY has a good branding (or as a good as a kpop group's can get), but what consistently jeopardizes it is JYP's inability to market it properly.

ITZY last memorable concept was Imaginary Friend imo, and I remember it gaining some traction, but JYP did not take advantage of that properly.

IMO, this long and nonsensical conversation about musical identities and branding is something insufferable stans made up to make their faves sound more interesting. Does it matter? Sure, you can say that. However, it is as simple as: if the song is good, people will listen to it. As I was saying to monalisalove yesterday about title tracks, ITZY has good songs, even post-Sneakers era. What made people ignore that was JYP's choice for the title tracks because that is the only thing that piques people's interest in the release.

Most will skip the entire album if the title track is a nothingburger and it does not have to be awe-inspiring--it just has to be interesting enough to have people check out the rest of the album, which has not been the case for ITZY.

Display More

Yes, I'm not saying Itzy doesn't have good tts anymore, but their quality went down in early years and they couldn't recover from it, now people just don't care enough to tune in for their cbs.

Their main problem is their damaged image, which is tied to some of their song selections.

A song most people deem great, Imaginary Friend, was also a title track with a promo cycle including performances, MV + performance video, dance practice, an English version, Tiktok challenges, etc. And what did that do? Not a lot other than some tweets that didn't translate much to other numbers.

People just don't care to listen to them, good or bad song, because their brand is permanently damaged after Sneakers (+ some other releases). They are widely considered "uncool" for a lack of better term, and to not have as good songs as other newer GGs. And a hurt image is hard to shake, even if they now release a good song or something similar to the music people liked from them before. Kpop fans moved on to other GGs a long time ago, and considering how influenced/trend focused kpop fans are, they are not likely going to look back and give a group with this image a chance no matter the song quality. They are not tuning in.

The thing is, itzy’s foundation was already weak from the start. The only thing that made their debut interesting was that they came from one of the big 4. Nothing really interesting about them. They are basically a generic girl crush group influenced by bp, and it just wasn’t obvious at first because they had no real competition and it blinded Jyp.

But when aespa debuted, the weaknesses jyp tried so hard to concealed started to crack. The rest is history. Wrong songs selection isn’t actually their biggest issue. Most of the time, people listen to a song because of the singer or in kpop, because of the company. Hardly bc of the quality itself. Even if they released a song like Wannabe or Dalla Dalla in 2022, the results will be same. Their last top 10 was Sneakers which released in 2022, on the first half of the year and it's not a coincidence that in just 4 months they fell quite hard in the same year the other 4th gen ggs thriving.

They were never the gp favourite, but when the industry offered no variety, people treasured them. They were built on a shaky foundation with lazy effort on creativity and once real competition showed up, they could not keep up. Itzy never had a strong foundation, image, marketing or concept from the start.

Quote from monalisalove

Yes, I'm not saying Itzy doesn't have good tts anymore, but their quality went down in early years and they couldn't recover from it, now people just don't care enough to tune in for their cbs.

No no, don't get me wrong lol.

I was just referring back to our conversation about comebacks in general to note what you said that the title track has to be interesting for a casual to be motivated enough to check out any other track in the album.

My tagging you wasn't meant as an attack lol

Quote from StanGIDLE

I agree that most kpop fans only listen to title tracks and will skip b-sides and even the promoted b-sides. It's why title track is key. However, Itzy still doesn't create memorable concepts and challenges to get people talking. Their lead up to their title tracks is far behind other groups which is why it seems hard for them to turn things around domestically when talking about Itzy's reputation and chart performance.

I can't even lie, I've liked every single ITZY tt following Sneakers, so people hit a sore spot every time they say those are bad. Like no... its just not strong enough

Quote from StanGIDLE

I agree that imaginary friend is a wonderful song and they should've marketed that instead of Gold . However, as a concept it didn't really get people talking but it should've been something to help them build interest for the follow up. It could've been their High Horse where it got people talking about the song and performance but they didn't do much with it's limited hype.

I agree but DON'T tell me you're a Gold hater too we cant be friends

Quote from CaraFIMIE

I can't even lie, I've liked every single ITZY tt following Sneakers, so people hit a sore spot every time they say those are bad. Like no... its just not strong enough

I agree but DON'T tell me you're a Gold hater too we cant be friends

Gold is not good and it's the weakest song in the EP. Imaginary friend as the title track with a more focused concept would've been the move for the group.

I think Itzy discography is overhated. Their title tracks aren't that bad except for stuff like Cake, Sneakers, and Gold . Their other tracks are much better but JYPE doesn't market their group and concepts well. Theoretically, a group's brand and reputation can sell a mediocre song. Not going to throw any groups or song under the bus but the right concept and marketing can make most songs chart in the top 10 and have great sales. JYPE not being able to market them and create interesting concept is why their songs struggle to chart in the top 100.

I just find it so odd because I feel they have popular members because many talk about the members and they go viral, but as a group it just doesn't happen often.

Quote from StanGIDLE

Gold is not good

Quote from StanGIDLE

I think Itzy discography is overhated. Their title tracks aren't that bad except for stuff like Cake, Sneakers, and Gold . Their other tracks are much better but JYPE doesn't market their group and concepts well. Theoretically, a group's brand and reputation can sell a mediocre song. Not going to throw any groups or song under the bus but the right concept and marketing can make most songs chart in the top 10 and have great sales. JYPE not being able to market them and create interesting concept is why their songs struggle to chart in the top 100.

I just find it so odd because I feel they have popular members because many talk about the members and they go viral, but as a group it just doesn't happen often.

I think they need to go all-out, performance wise.

Because a group like KATSEYE can sell Internet Girl and Gnarly with their ability to perform so I feel ITZY could do that if they put in the effort.

JYP wont let me and Chaeryeong be together

Quote from CaraFIMIE

No no, don't get me wrong lol.

I was just referring back to our conversation about comebacks in general to note what you said that the title track has to be interesting for a casual to be motivated enough to check out any other track in the album.

My tagging you wasn't meant as an attack lol

I know, I was agreeing with you

I like Itzy they are one of my fav groups but right now it will be hard to for them to overcome the likes of IVE and LSFM and Aespa

plus they seem to lack any sort of identity given that they are overshadowed by the legacy of Twice??? and also overtaken by their juniors Nmixx and thus the constant middle child

also I would argue that their peers have standard individual idols who might be what one considers IT girls such as IVE and WY and Aespa and Karina whereas JYPE hasn't really pushed any one to that level

Quote from CaraFIMIE

I think they need to go all-out, performance wise.

Because a group like KATSEYE can sell Internet Girl and Gnarly with their ability to perform so I feel ITZY could do that if they put in the effort.

Someone heard you.

It’s many things combined.

Their voices sound fine in their earlier tracks. But I feel like after sneakers their voices started regressing. Also JYP gives them songs that are too high for them. Like they could lower the key, but no rather they would sound like Chipmunks for JYP.

Also they wasted all the hype of Yeji and Ryujin. JYP didn’t push them and it was one of their biggest mistakes. These 2 girls were so popular and cool, they were constantly talked about at least in international space and some of their performances had well over 50m views. Like Ryujin going viral for shoulder move in wannabe, or Yeji going viral for covering “River” and many more moments, but JYP’s incompetent ass didn’t care.

Another thing is ofc song selection. Sneakers, Cake, Gold and more. They actually had great songs in between like Cheshire, Born to be, and Imaginary friends but inconsistency combined with the reasons above made them fade in eyes of GP.

The last thing is probably the concept. Like everyone excepted some luxury cool stuff for Sneakers but it went the opposite ways. And they switched concepts too much. Like going from too bright to to dark to too cute. They should’ve stocked to one concept. You only can survive if you don’t have the problems above, otherwise you should stick to your core concept. Like SNSD could switch however they wanted cuz they had the vocals, the visuals, the aesthetics, songs and individual star power(which itzy had at some point in 2020-2021).

And especially after debut of Aespa I’ve Njs people just dropped them, cuz they didn’t get what they wanted from Itzy….

I think 2023 is what killed them more than vocals or songs.

If you look at their sales, they were selling 1 Million+ in Korea, 20,000+ in US, charting in Japan. Even hated songs like Sneakers charted really well in Korea.

But in 2023, they released one mini-album, Kill My Doubt (which sold really well). Cake charted but did not do as well as previous songs and did not connect with international fans. Instead of focusing on coming back with an alternating sound like in the past (Sneakers/Cheshire, In The Morning/Loco), they literally disappeared until 2024. I know Lia was on hiatus but a subunit or any sort of Korean promotions would've helped them.

In that time, Aespa released Spicy and Drama, IVE released Off The Record, Le Sserafim released Perfect Night, NewJeans released Get Up, etc, etc, you see my point.

Then JYP gave them Untouchable, which was a lazy title track sorry, and very little promotion. It was almost like their entire creative team left for either NMIXX or TWICE, and they got stuck with the leftovers. It feels like the company doesn't really try with them anymore which is super frustrating to see as a midzy.