Do you think a group can have zero hits, be near nugu level in Korea and still be the UNQUESTIONED top group?

    If a group has 0 hit songs and no significant general popularity in Korea, can you still call them the unquestioned top group? 59

    1. Yes (32) 54%
    2. No (27) 46%

    This isn't shade at any particular group, so any overly defensive stan rage sessions can be left at the door.


    I genuinely want to see what the AKP Forum sentiments are.


    I hold you all generally in a higher esteem than other discussion platforms, such as reddit or x, when it comes to your understanding of the K-Pop machine.


    Okay, enough preamble.


    Let's take a group; we'll call them Group A.


    If Group A doesn't have a single hit song, which we will define as a chart topping single; ideally a National Level hit, nor do they have any presence in Korea, would you still call them the unquestioned top group in the industry?


    This will be a PUBLIC poll.


    Everyone knows my opinion at this point. I don't plan on debating. Feel free to if you wish.


    I need DATA :pepe-notes:

  • Yama-Chan

    Changed the title of the thread from “Do you think a group can have zero hits, be near nugu level in Korea and still be THE top group?” to “Do you think a group can have zero hits, be near nugu level in Korea and still be the UNQUESTIONED top group?”.

    Not really tbh but it's undeniable they're one of the most successful if not the most in the current gen. But I always associate top groups with groups that everyone knows their songs and names. And I can only remember Chan, Felix and Hyunjin and only know 2 of their songs

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  • AllKill VIP

    Traitor

    For example:


    A.C.E has no song that charted well in Korea, are almost unknown by most Koreans and originaly debuted in a very broke company, nobody would think they are still top


    If you are from a top label there is almost no chance of you to not have at least 1 hit song out there that even charts well, unless your label hates you and dosn't pushes you till people forget you exist


    But let's say a group like Kickflip would be the one you mean, mainly cause they are new, I doubt that they would be like this, cause due to being from a top label they might have their first hit, if they hadn't gotten one yet in no time if their agency would push it ...


    You can't have a top group who is almost underrated and not making hit music

    What about British style self saucing pudding?

    Kpop grew out of Korea a long time ago. Ofc it’s very much possible to be a top group what sort of a dumb question is this lol.


    Like why would any logical person even ask this question.


    If you are making millions of dollars overseas why won’t you be a a top group 😭


    Only Yama will be stupid enough to ask this question. As usual.

    I don't think they should be excluded from the conversation entirely just because they don't have hits, in the same way that NJs should not be excluded just because they don't have touring numbers. I mean, SKZ can sell out arena's in SK, so clearly they aren't nugu there even if the charts don't show it.


    But obviously it is not "unquestionable". My reasoning being that a group without hits is one lacking in overall impact, and can we really call a group with questionable impact the unquestionable top group? nah

  • AllKill VIP

    When your posts don't read like you smashed the keyboard across your face in a blind rage to type them, I'll grant you the favor of receiving my attention. I can see the foam oozing from your mouth, dripping down from each message.

    Quote from Tru-Multistan

    I don't think they should be excluded from the conversation entirely just because they don't have hits, in the same way that NJs should not be excluded just because they don't have touring numbers. I mean, SKZ can sell out arena's in SK, so clearly they aren't nugu there even if the charts don't show it.


    But obviously it is not "unquestionable". My reasoning being that a group without hits is one lacking in overall impact, and can we really call a group with questionable impact the unquestionable top group? nah

    Well, as I've been saying this whole week, I want people to address the arguments and statements I'm actually making, not the misconstrued and misinterpreted versions that end up being strawmen.


    I never said anything about being excluded entirely. The parameters are clear.


    Can a group with zero hit songs and zero interest from the general public be considered the unquestioned, irrefutable top group in the industry?


    I say absolutely not.

    Well theyre a top group in Kpop because theyre able to capture viral moments outside of the Naver chart. They have so many viral tiktok moments (from songs) internationally. They arent going to domestically do as well because theyre able appeal of these things are international, but theyre just the first group of this nature.



    I have a feeling that Katseye will replicate this in a girl group way

    Quote from doesitneedsaying

    Who is a group who has worldwide success but has absolutely no presence/is nugu in korea?


    And to answer, yes. Every group that's making a lots of money all over the world is a top group. Kpop doesn't focus only on korean market anymore, but global. Korean audience don't worth more than Brazilian, Thai or German.

    I completely disagree.


    And I honestly think you're all lying. Blatantly so.


    Let's do a hypothetical.


    We'll use girl groups, so everyone doesn't think this is just SKZ slander, and also because nobody knows girl group stan behavior better than me.


    There is Girl Group A and Girl Group B


    Girl Group A does the following:


    • Gets a Perfect All-Kill with every title track they released in the calendar year
    • Is the top artist on the year end Gallup Survey by a huge margin
    • Wins every daesang at every year end show
    • Secures the most lucrative and exclusive brand ambassadorships, with their images all over Korea
    • Has the best Billboard charting of any peer by a mile

    Girl Group B does the following:


    • Sells the most albums
    • Has a wildly successful tour like Twice

    I know for a damn fact that the fans of Group A would absolutely never in a million years say that Group B is ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT QUESTION the top girl group in the industry.


    And honestly, if ANY of your favorite groups were Group A, all of you would be singing a very, very, very different tune.


    Remember, this isn't about whether B can be considered a top group, but whether B can be considered BY FAR the top group with no room for argument.

    Quote from Yama-Chan

    Well, as I've been saying this whole week, I want people to address the arguments and statements I'm actually making, not the misconstrued and misinterpreted versions that end up being strawmen.


    I never said anything about being excluded entirely. The parameters are clear.


    Can a group with zero hit songs and zero interest from the general public be considered the unquestioned, irrefutable top group in the industry?


    I say absolutely not.

    I never disagreed with you, people are free to dispute whatever they want lol. The fact is that plenty of k-pop fans like yourself do arbitrarily weight Korean success more than international success and I'm sure plenty would be willing to argue that IVE or Aespa deserve that top spot, so no it's not irrefutable.


    But you can see quite clearly from the comments and split on the poll here that not every thinks this way, and if you just look at raw numbers and ignore "# of hits", then saying SKZ is the irrefutable top group doesn't sound so crazy because they do have HUGEEE touring numbers and pretty huge streams/following across the big platforms.


    I think at the very least SKZ is irrefutably A top group, but not THE top group.

    Quote from OopsEncoreMoi

    A top group isn't defined by a single country.


    If we want to define a top group, we have to consider all countries without that, they're just called top K-pop group.

    I disagree. I think you need to at least be significantly relevant in your home country to be a top group. It baffles me that this is so hard for people to understand. Korea is not the largest market, but K-Pop is NICHE outside of it.


    This entire year I've seen many of the same names in this thread doomposting K-Pop's growth in the West, claiming interest is waning and America's home grown pop stars have crowded the market and pushed K-Pop out.


    That is the reason why being a star in YOUR country has significant value. No need to worry about a Sabrina or a Chapelle in Seoul. You achieve great things and you're the pride of your country. You achieve great things in the West and you're a novelty for a couple years tops.


    It's not that I think no other country but Korea matters; it's the fact Korea is being minimized and trivialized by outsiders way, way too much.


    For an easy comparison, basketball is a global sport now. Arguably China is its biggest consumer by sheer numbers. But even if it isn't, I guarantee any baller would be frustrated if they were popular all over the world but completely irrelevant in the states, their home.

    Quote from Tru-Multistan

    I never disagreed with you, people are free to dispute whatever they want lol. The fact is that plenty of k-pop fans like yourself do arbitrarily weight Korean success more than international success and I'm sure plenty would be willing to argue that IVE or Aespa deserve that top spot, so no it's not irrefutable.


    But you can see quite clearly from the comments and split on the poll here that not every thinks this way, and if you just look at raw numbers and ignore "# of hits", then saying SKZ is the irrefutable top group doesn't sound so crazy because they do have HUGEEE touring numbers and pretty huge streams/following across the big platforms.


    I think at the very least SKZ is irrefutably A top group, but not THE top group.

    But it's not arbitrary is the thing. Read what I just posted. There is significant value to being beloved and adored in your home country. When groups aren't touring, where are they? America? Japan? China? Mexico? No, they go back home to Seoul, the literal birthplace of K-Pop, and it will always be the hottest market for K-Pop even if it's not the biggest.


    In the past, I've asked this forum if K-Pop is now mainstream in the West, and the overwhelming response was "absolutely not", so why would I put the biggest weight on a market where K-Pop makes up such a tiny segment of the market share, overshadowed by the home grown stars and native talents, compared to their home turf, Korea, where K-Pop will ALWAYS be center stage in some way.


    I JUST saw GD and 2NE1 last weekend. Before I was even on my plane back home, they were ALREADY in Seoul being received by their fans and media.


    People are disrespecting and devaluing Korea PURELY because their favorite groups aren't dominant there. I would bet my entire life savings that their opinions would flip 180 if those same groups were putting up BTS, Big Bang, BP, NJ, IVE, IDLE and aespa numbers in Korea.

    I'm not lying, what would i gain from it?


    I don't care about charts, i honest to god don't know what allkill means (i know it's something about charts). Billboard charts are manipulated by labels, artists can't have longevity without radio support. Kpop acts debut thanks to their fans' passion, then next week or week later, they are out.


    Like i said before, i don't believe in charts and rarely posted in such threads about my faves (paradis posted about their achievements when she was active).



    Group B who sells albums well and have great touring numbers is a top group. It might not be a top group in korea but it's still a top kpop group. Kpop doesn't have audience only in korea, other countries matter too.

    Quote from Yama-Chan

    That is the reason why being a star in YOUR country has significant value. No need to worry about a Sabrina or a Chapelle in Seoul. You achieve great things and you're the pride of your country. You achieve great things in the West and you're a novelty for a couple years tops.

    As if GGs groups stay significant after the next fresh group comes along. What's going on with StayC? They wasted time on just Korea and got banished to nugudom. Beautiful monster is arguably their best but it flopped. Koreans clearly adore things on vibes vs what's actually good.

    Quote from Yama-Chan
    • Gets a Perfect All-Kill with every title track they released in the calendar year
    • Is the top artist on the year end Gallup Survey by a huge margin
    • Wins every daesang at every year end show
    • Secures the most lucrative and exclusive brand ambassadorships, with their images all over Korea
    • Has the best Billboard charting of any peer by a mile

    If there was an active 4th gen boy group like that that Stray Kids was up against sure, but there ain't. Someone still has to be top, even if it means being first of a comnparatively less impressive gen compared to the general public impact of the groups of previous gens.

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