Is it time to admit that "talentless" idols aren't as common in the industry as some fans like to make it seem?

Talent is overrated in my opinion.

There's more to being an idol than singing and dancing imo. Being able to have charisma and stage presence is a talent that many idols don't have. People will usually point to idols that are below average singers as talentless, but they most likely shine in other areas.

IMO you have to have some talent to debut, and most idols that debut is at least good in certain areas. Most idols usually don't have the opportunity to shine because groups aren't popular. That's a whole different topic imo

I feel the opposite. Even the idols people call talented aren’t all that talented

Idols are idols and that’s alright.

Idol's first job is to look pretty. They're not there for the talent. An ugly idol could be the best performer in the world and they'd still never be successful.

The Kpop industry is too manufactured and oversold on the idea of "perfect idol"

On the Japanese and China side, they have a different take on idol groups. The fans accept the imperfection of the groups and willing to grow together with them. Withnessing their idol growth is very precious memory and create that fan stickiness & loyalty.

And this is why, Kpop fans lack that loyalty. Because they stan whichever group that is in the trend / looks good, and then switch to another rising star and the vicious cycle goes on

No, that's not true at all. Being able to string 2 words together or follow a choreography isn't talent by any means. I don't want to seem like I'm especially picking on her, she's just an example, but what kind of talent does someone like Sakura have exactly? She isn't a skilled dancer, she can't sing at all and she always looks like she has stage fright even after a long career in showbiz. Same thing for the maknae of her group. There are also blackpink Jisoo and bts' Jin. Both are stiff, don't have any charisma and still sing like amateurs even after a decade as idols. There's also exo's Sehun who isn't even average in any area or Jaemin and Jeno from NCT dream, both can follow a choreography to a T but no one would call them talented dancers, Johnny and Jungwoo from NCT 127, Red Velvet's Yeri. And many others whose names escape me right now. These idols don't even have decent stage presence to make up for the lack of technical skills.

Heck even many idols with solid positions like main and lead vocalist aren't necessarily talented, like being better than a bunch of other group mates who can't hold a tune isn't talent.

I voted no but I don't really have a clear opinion on this subject. Measuring talent is subjective and I can't say that that I am not biased sometimes. Let's say that a lot of idols who don't usually impress me manage to surprise me from time to time.

there needs to be a bare min amount of skill involved in dance and singing beyond that bare min everything else is fair game

maybe they have talent in other areas such as rapping, production, acting, mcing, modelling, being pretty, charisma, charm, stage presence etc etc

all of the non-performance aspects of talent

Well, my answer is obvious, because I said this in the other thread. My answer is NO, and it's going to be a "no" for a long time, because Kpop not gonna change any time soon.

What Kpop fans should do, is accept valid criticism, and also accept that the Idol industry is not about talent.

The Korean Industry itself said this about Kpop many times. It's manufactured, a lot of lip-syncing, and it's robotic, and most groups are not great performers.

This is what Kim Kyungho said in 2015!

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Also, Lee Hyori too:

What does it mean to be talented in K-pop? Being technically good at singing? How good are we talking about? At a prominent level, very few idols are. What happens is that in K-pop, everything becomes an argument for fans to brag about their favorite idols. If my favorite dances a little better than the others or can sing a run, he's an 'incredible performer.' If he makes faces and sticks his tongue out at the camera, he has 'amazing stage presence.' When in reality, we know that it's an industry totally focused on appearance (because let's be honest, that's what sells), and companies couldn't care less whether the idols are truly talented or not.

rare to find a talentless idol because most have at least one of 3 talents: singing, dancing, and visuals.

I have sometimes had the thoughts that not just anyone can be an idol.

Or at least imagined that have thoughts like "I just want to be famous and rich" can't become idols unless they have talents.

Or at least had the mindset when I was younger that if people want to become famous on TV and are good at singing or other things, then they can go on X-Factor or ______'s Got Talent.

And that the "talentless" ones can go on dating shows, Big Brother or other reality shows.

not every idols is that talented but like som that fall in that category at least put the effort

like, look like u wanna be there

if u wanna be an influencer doing nothing u can. its a job now

Some are less talented, some more. Some improved, some stagnated which essentially mean they got worse.

First idol that comes to my mind is jisoo. She a terrible dancer, it's actually fascinating how after than many years in the business she is that awful. She's bellow average singer and has no charisma on stage presence. Nothing would change if she wasn't in the group.

Quote from CaraFIMIE

Oh? Well, that's a new take. In what way do you feel talent is overrated?

It’s hard to articulate. Bear with me.

For vocals I always choose timbre over talent/range. That’s why I always vote for Rosé when the threads pop-up (like I did in your recent one of Rosé vs Lilly). I would even choose Lee Hyori over Lilly. Lee Hyori has a very limited range, but a lush tone to her voice. Lilly sounds so shrill (to me personally), I can’t bear to listen to her, even if everyone says she is very talented.

For dance/choreo, I will always choose something where the members look like they are vibing and having fun over something difficult or technically proficient. For me, NewJeans Supernatural is one of the best choreos because of how much fun they look like they’re having as they dance, and that aura is just unmatchable with other teams (I don’t care that they’re not doing any difficult moves).

Lastly, at its heart, I think kpop is about story telling. And often having the most talented members doing the hardest stuff doesn’t always make for the best story. I love watching Lisa dance with Blackpink, but Jisoo’s stiff movements also have a certain charm and help make her the loveable goofball of the group. Together it gives the group a human touch that might be lacking if they were all dancing perfectly in sync all the time.

Overall, I agree with your take that idols get called talentless too often, but talent (or lack of) is also really far down my list of concerns when listening to kpop, where all I really want is charming members to put on a compelling performance.

Quote from 0ppar

rare to find a talentless idol because most have at least one of 3 talents: singing, dancing, and visuals.

Visual is NOT a talent, you either born pretty or you paid for it, but it's not a skill!

Quote from David33

Visual is NOT a talent, you either born pretty or you paid for it, but it's not a skill!

Maybe finding a good surgeon is a skill they do wonders

Quote from Bottles

For vocals I always choose timbre over talent/range. That’s why I always vote for Rosé when the threads pop-up (like I did in your recent one of Rosé vs Lilly). I would even choose Lee Hyori over Lilly. Lee Hyori has a very limited range, but a lush tone to her voice. Lilly sounds so shrill (to me personally), I can’t bear to listen to her, even if everyone says she is very talented.

Lastly, at its heart, I think kpop is about story telling. And often having the most talented members doing the hardest stuff doesn’t always make for the best story. I love watching Lisa dance with Blackpink, but Jisoo’s stiff movements also have a certain charm and help make her the loveable goofball of the group. Together it gives the group a human touch that might be lacking if they were all dancing perfectly in sync all the time.

I get that you prefer tone/timbre over skills, but then we could argue that there's no need for a singer, because even with AI you can generate a nice tone. Okay, this is obv an overexaggeration, but still, if a singer is not even average, it doesn't matter how nice their tone is. Rose for me is in the middle, she's not average, but not bad either. To be honest, her skills developed the most out of all the BP girls.

BTW, she doesn't sing the same way as she did in BP, so I wonder what's your take on that.

You probably prefer a light "cute" tone, for me a dark, lower tone is what I love the most, like Hwasa, Moonbyul or Yuqi for example, or a honey voice like Wheein. Byul, Wheein, and Hwasa are the examples when timbre meets with skills.

I disagree about the 2nd part. I mean, it's not only just Kpop! Music in general is a story telling.

Sure, it can be funny watching a certain Idol making mistakes on stage, but if I'm paying for a concert, I want top-tier performance, and I'm not talking about dancing, and most groups lacks energy and charisma on stage. BP isn't really that group, but their overall performance is not top-tier for me, and not only because of Jisoo.

You said, "Talent is overrated", but I want to rephrase that: Dancing is overrated in Kpop! They have many backup dancers, they should focus on singing and rap if it's needed!

Talentless idols are the norm. They used to at least have engaging personalities. So many of the ones debuting recently are robotic and interchangeable.

*cough* shu-hua *cough*

Quote from CaraFIMIE

Oh? Well, that's a new take. In what way do you feel talent is overrated?

I disagree with all of this.

But I'll mainly comment on Eunchae and Sakura to save you the trouble of reading an essay.

Sakura has very rarely looked like "she has stage fright" unless it was during the encores. And I don't see how that's her fault when going on that encore stage is basically reliving the trauma of having people harrass and bully her online as a result of her encore performance. She may not be an average singer but she is nearly an average dancer + she's a songwriter.

And I don't know why Eunchae is even in this discussion. She is a good technical dancer and has the potential to become an average idol rapper, aka, she's constantly improving in both. As for singing, she's underdeveloped for the time being but that's fine because she doesn't hold any major vocal position. If you compare 2022 Eunchae's ability to sing, dance, or rap. There is a major gap between 2025 Eunchae. She IS talented.

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Being "nearly average" at something after decade of doing it isn't a talent lol. It's alright, I don't think you need to be particularly talented to debut and succeed as a kpop idol, but please let's not over exaggerate. Calling these meagre skills "talent" is an insult to actual talented artists.

Quote from CaraFIMIE

Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about.

Neither KHT48 nor AKB48 were ever known for their dance skills so precisely how much training do you think any of them would've received in that area? Especially when they are training a lot of girls?

And yes, Sakura DID receive a lot of vocal training in her years of being an idol in Japan but how do you expect her to improve substantially if she is consistently taught using the wrong methods?

Do you think "puncture the high note" is good vocal direction for someone who is learning to sing?

Are you even taking any of that into account?

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Stop infantalising and victimising these professional adults. As a working woman I find you attitude simply ridiculous. When I first started working I had to use a software that I never learned how to use in university, now I'm an expert at it and I never even took any courses. Why? Because I NEED TO excel at it, because I would have been fired otherwise, because my job can't be done without it. That's how the real world works, that's what you do when you want to improve and learn. These people have the means and channels to learn and get trained and taught and yet you keep blaming everyone else except for them? They don't feel the urgency to improve because there's no risk to lose their livelihood, because they make tons of money anyway and because they have tons of fans defending them and insisting that breathing in a mic while standing still should now be considered a talent.

Sakura is not a child, Sakura is someone who debuted as a mediocre idol and is still mediocre a decade and a half later, it's because she is talentless and doesn't work hard enough to improve, despite having access to the means to do so. I'm sorry the truth makes you uncomfortable.

I feel idols aren't as untalented as people claim in the sense of they have to do more than people give them credit for.

like singing/ dancing/modeling/ acting/ interacting with fans, being good at interviews and learn how to handle pressure they have to go through. Being an idol isn't easy. Having to do world tours and performing for a long time. it's stressful. Having to deal with criticism and haters you have to develop a thick skin and certain maturity.

in order to debut an idol you should know the basics as a performer and all of them do. There is a lot more that go unnoticed. Obviously there are more talented idols than others. Some idols are way more talented than some but that doesn't meant idols are necessary untalented. Maybe the right word would be that they have limited skills in comparison to more talented idols.

it's just that people have certain standards when it comes to performances and there is nothing wrong with that but calling them untalented feels a bit unfair