Is it time to admit that "talentless" idols aren't as common in the industry as some fans like to make it seem?

    It's time to admit "talentless" idols aren't common in the industry? 27

    1. Yes. (17) 63%
    2. No. (10) 37%

    Like, yes, I know most of the time its just meant as shade but it really frustrates me how often "talentless" get thrown around by fans just because an idol isn't singing like Olivia Rodrigo after a heartbreak.


    Face it: some of y'all need to stop acting like "talentless" idols are such a common phenomenon in the industry when they, in fact, are not. Talent comes in all shapes and forms and its important to remember that before saying stupid shit and trashing people that are basically stranger to us.

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  • CaraFIMIE

    Changed the title of the thread from “Is it time to admit that "talentless" idols are as common in the industry as some fans like to make it seem?” to “Is it time to admit that "talentless" idols aren't as common in the industry as some fans like to make it seem?”.
  • AllKill VIP

    Go to J-Pop stan an idol who PERFORMS, ACTS, DJ'S, AND SINGS...also has great looks to boot

    that's talent

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  • AllKill VIP

    I voted wrong😭


    A lot of idols are talentless and go through the motions. Even some of my own faves


    After being in the industry for so many years and either being 1. utterly useless or 2. glorified lowtier backup dancers, I don't see what's wrong with calling them such. At that point it's obvious they're fine with their inability, don't care about getting better and simply want to be influencers with a check.


    Performance skills are the priority. Skills like acting, variety etc are supplemental features, being good at that does not excuse being subpar at the main skills. Ofc they can still be likeable and there's nothing wrong with liking them, but they are unskilled

  • AllKill VIP

    There's more to being an idol than singing and dancing imo. Being able to have charisma and stage presence is a talent that many idols don't have. People will usually point to idols that are below average singers as talentless, but they most likely shine in other areas.


    IMO you have to have some talent to debut, and most idols that debut is at least good in certain areas. Most idols usually don't have the opportunity to shine because groups aren't popular. That's a whole different topic imo

    Idol's first job is to look pretty. They're not there for the talent. An ugly idol could be the best performer in the world and they'd still never be successful.

    The Kpop industry is too manufactured and oversold on the idea of "perfect idol"


    On the Japanese and China side, they have a different take on idol groups. The fans accept the imperfection of the groups and willing to grow together with them. Withnessing their idol growth is very precious memory and create that fan stickiness & loyalty.


    And this is why, Kpop fans lack that loyalty. Because they stan whichever group that is in the trend / looks good, and then switch to another rising star and the vicious cycle goes on

    No, that's not true at all. Being able to string 2 words together or follow a choreography isn't talent by any means. I don't want to seem like I'm especially picking on her, she's just an example, but what kind of talent does someone like Sakura have exactly? She isn't a skilled dancer, she can't sing at all and she always looks like she has stage fright even after a long career in showbiz. Same thing for the maknae of her group. There are also blackpink Jisoo and bts' Jin. Both are stiff, don't have any charisma and still sing like amateurs even after a decade as idols. There's also exo's Sehun who isn't even average in any area or Jaemin and Jeno from NCT dream, both can follow a choreography to a T but no one would call them talented dancers, Johnny and Jungwoo from NCT 127, Red Velvet's Yeri. And many others whose names escape me right now. These idols don't even have decent stage presence to make up for the lack of technical skills.

    Heck even many idols with solid positions like main and lead vocalist aren't necessarily talented, like being better than a bunch of other group mates who can't hold a tune isn't talent.

    there needs to be a bare min amount of skill involved in dance and singing beyond that bare min everything else is fair game


    maybe they have talent in other areas such as rapping, production, acting, mcing, modelling, being pretty, charisma, charm, stage presence etc etc


    all of the non-performance aspects of talent

    Well, my answer is obvious, because I said this in the other thread. My answer is NO, and it's going to be a "no" for a long time, because Kpop not gonna change any time soon.


    What Kpop fans should do, is accept valid criticism, and also accept that the Idol industry is not about talent.


    The Korean Industry itself said this about Kpop many times. It's manufactured, a lot of lip-syncing, and it's robotic, and most groups are not great performers.



    This is what Kim Kyungho said in 2015!


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    Also, Lee Hyori too:


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    What does it mean to be talented in K-pop? Being technically good at singing? How good are we talking about? At a prominent level, very few idols are. What happens is that in K-pop, everything becomes an argument for fans to brag about their favorite idols. If my favorite dances a little better than the others or can sing a run, he's an 'incredible performer.' If he makes faces and sticks his tongue out at the camera, he has 'amazing stage presence.' When in reality, we know that it's an industry totally focused on appearance (because let's be honest, that's what sells), and companies couldn't care less whether the idols are truly talented or not.

    I have sometimes had the thoughts that not just anyone can be an idol.

    Or at least imagined that have thoughts like "I just want to be famous and rich" can't become idols unless they have talents.


    Or at least had the mindset when I was younger that if people want to become famous on TV and are good at singing or other things, then they can go on X-Factor or ______'s Got Talent.

    And that the "talentless" ones can go on dating shows, Big Brother or other reality shows.

    Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

    I voted wrong😭

    :pepe-tongue:

    Quote from Bottles

    Talent is overrated in my opinion.

    Oh? Well, that's a new take. In what way do you feel talent is overrated?

    Quote from chounim

    No, that's not true at all. Being able to string 2 words together or follow a choreography isn't talent by any means. I don't want to seem like I'm especially picking on her, she's just an example, but what kind of talent does someone like Sakura have exactly? She isn't a skilled dancer, she can't sing at all and she always looks like she has stage fright even after a long career in showbiz. Same thing for the maknae of her group. There are also blackpink Jisoo and bts' Jin. Both are stiff, don't have any charisma and still sing like amateurs even after a decade as idols. There's also exo's Sehun who isn't even average in any area or Jaemin and Jeno from NCT dream, both can follow a choreography to a T but no one would call them talented dancers, Johnny and Jungwoo from NCT 127, Red Velvet's Yeri. And many others whose names escape me right now. These idols don't even have decent stage presence to make up for the lack of technical skills.

    Heck even many idols with solid positions like main and lead vocalist aren't necessarily talented, like being better than a bunch of other group mates who can't hold a tune isn't talent.

    I disagree with all of this.


    But I'll mainly comment on Eunchae and Sakura to save you the trouble of reading an essay.


    Sakura has very rarely looked like "she has stage fright" unless it was during the encores. And I don't see how that's her fault when going on that encore stage is basically reliving the trauma of having people harrass and bully her online as a result of her encore performance. She may not be an average singer but she is nearly an average dancer + she's a songwriter.


    And I don't know why Eunchae is even in this discussion. She is a good technical dancer and has the potential to become an average idol rapper, aka, she's constantly improving in both. As for singing, she's underdeveloped for the time being but that's fine because she doesn't hold any major vocal position. If you compare 2022 Eunchae's ability to sing, dance, or rap. There is a major gap between 2025 Eunchae. She IS talented.

    Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

    After being in the industry for so many years and either being 1. utterly useless or 2. glorified lowtier backup dancers, I don't see what's wrong with calling them such. At that point it's obvious they're fine with their inability, don't care about getting better and simply want to be influencers with a check.

    I think you overestimate how much the time spent in the industry matters.

    It's also the fact that some of y'all act so bothered about it.


    Like, y'all itch so bad to shade and shit on specific idols for being "talentless" but the main question is why you care. Like, you don't stan the idol and those who do stan the idol aren't complaining about that idol's ability to do their job, aka, entertain. So...why do you get to complain when you're not even a fan and that idol's perceived lack of talent reflects back on you in absolutely no way.

  • AllKill VIP

    Some are less talented, some more. Some improved, some stagnated which essentially mean they got worse.


    First idol that comes to my mind is jisoo. She a terrible dancer, it's actually fascinating how after than many years in the business she is that awful. She's bellow average singer and has no charisma on stage presence. Nothing would change if she wasn't in the group.

    Quote from CaraFIMIE

    Oh? Well, that's a new take. In what way do you feel talent is overrated?

    It’s hard to articulate. Bear with me.


    For vocals I always choose timbre over talent/range. That’s why I always vote for Rosé when the threads pop-up (like I did in your recent one of Rosé vs Lilly). I would even choose Lee Hyori over Lilly. Lee Hyori has a very limited range, but a lush tone to her voice. Lilly sounds so shrill (to me personally), I can’t bear to listen to her, even if everyone says she is very talented.


    For dance/choreo, I will always choose something where the members look like they are vibing and having fun over something difficult or technically proficient. For me, NewJeans Supernatural is one of the best choreos because of how much fun they look like they’re having as they dance, and that aura is just unmatchable with other teams (I don’t care that they’re not doing any difficult moves).


    Lastly, at its heart, I think kpop is about story telling. And often having the most talented members doing the hardest stuff doesn’t always make for the best story. I love watching Lisa dance with Blackpink, but Jisoo’s stiff movements also have a certain charm and help make her the loveable goofball of the group. Together it gives the group a human touch that might be lacking if they were all dancing perfectly in sync all the time.


    Overall, I agree with your take that idols get called talentless too often, but talent (or lack of) is also really far down my list of concerns when listening to kpop, where all I really want is charming members to put on a compelling performance.

    Quote from Bottles

    For vocals I always choose timbre over talent/range. That’s why I always vote for Rosé when the threads pop-up (like I did in your recent one of Rosé vs Lilly). I would even choose Lee Hyori over Lilly. Lee Hyori has a very limited range, but a lush tone to her voice. Lilly sounds so shrill (to me personally), I can’t bear to listen to her, even if everyone says she is very talented.


    Lastly, at its heart, I think kpop is about story telling. And often having the most talented members doing the hardest stuff doesn’t always make for the best story. I love watching Lisa dance with Blackpink, but Jisoo’s stiff movements also have a certain charm and help make her the loveable goofball of the group. Together it gives the group a human touch that might be lacking if they were all dancing perfectly in sync all the time.

    I get that you prefer tone/timbre over skills, but then we could argue that there's no need for a singer, because even with AI you can generate a nice tone. Okay, this is obv an overexaggeration, but still, if a singer is not even average, it doesn't matter how nice their tone is. Rose for me is in the middle, she's not average, but not bad either. To be honest, her skills developed the most out of all the BP girls.


    BTW, she doesn't sing the same way as she did in BP, so I wonder what's your take on that.


    You probably prefer a light "cute" tone, for me a dark, lower tone is what I love the most, like Hwasa, Moonbyul or Yuqi for example, or a honey voice like Wheein. Byul, Wheein, and Hwasa are the examples when timbre meets with skills.


    I disagree about the 2nd part. I mean, it's not only just Kpop! Music in general is a story telling.


    Sure, it can be funny watching a certain Idol making mistakes on stage, but if I'm paying for a concert, I want top-tier performance, and I'm not talking about dancing, and most groups lacks energy and charisma on stage. BP isn't really that group, but their overall performance is not top-tier for me, and not only because of Jisoo.


    You said, "Talent is overrated", but I want to rephrase that: Dancing is overrated in Kpop! They have many backup dancers, they should focus on singing and rap if it's needed!

  • AllKill VIP

    I’ve had some time to really think about this, and I wanted to answer seriously.


    I do believe that most idols debut for a reason, usually because they possess a certain level of talent or potential that their company sees as valuable. Not every member is going to be the main vocal or lead dancer, and sometimes the strengths of other members can unintentionally overshadow someone else. But that doesn’t mean that person is “talentless.” If they truly had nothing to offer, I doubt a company would invest in debuting them, training isn’t cheap, and idol groups are strategic.


    The one major exception I see is survival shows, where public votes can push someone through more for popularity than for skill (assuming the voting isn’t rigged). In those cases, a less talented contestant might debut just because they have a strong fanbase, but even then, once they’re in a group, they still have to keep up and grow, or they risk falling behind.


    I also think it's important to look beyond just vocals or dancing. For example, early on in Ateez's career, Yeosang was quiet and shy, he chose to have fewer lines because he lacked confidence. But over time, we’ve seen him come out of his shell: he’s hit the gym, gotten more solo lines, and become a stronger, more visible performer. That kind of growth is talent. And honestly, I don’t believe that just being “the visual” or “the center” is a talent on its own, but those roles aren’t handed out just for looks. There’s usually something else they bring to the team, whether it’s charisma, stage presence, or personality.


    As someone who spent five years in K-pop and then transitioned into J-pop, I’ve noticed stark differences. J-pop doesn’t lean as hard into beauty standards, and it's honestly refreshing. Watching a 16-member group with diverse personalities, looks, and skillsets come together and create real synergy feels more natural and engaging. I use my ults as an example, I’ll be the first to admit that some of them wouldn’t be considered “conventionally attractive” by K-pop standards, but their talent is undeniable.


    So yeah, it frustrates me when people throw the word “talentless” around so casually. You can dislike an idol or not vibe with their group, but to dismiss their entire existence as lacking talent is unfair and often just misinformed.

    Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

    More experience should mean more growth and development of skills. Depends on attitude tbh

    Not necessarily.


    You would expect that for any other career field like, a teacher, doctor, therapist, etc. But thats because they undergo extensive training and often ONLY focus on that area.


    Idols have to cover different areas and are also very often busy.

    I 100% agree and I feel like this is the most thoughtful response.


    I think it's also important to note that most of these fans that all of a sudden because a prominent judge of the talents of anyone not their faves, have zero experience when it comes to that area.


    That's why I never take any vocal rankings seriously because a lot of fans judge based on high notes + preference and I've seen a lot of idols where, when they sing, they use very often unhealthy techniques that don't suit their voice at all but I still see them get ranked above those who are actually well-rounded in singing and can sing in a healthy manner.


    And for me personally, I will always place a priority on dancing/overall performing ability because it is in that area that I have actual experience in. So I think fans really need to just stop to think "Do I actually possess the credentials to claim/enforce that this idol can't sing/can't dance"?

    Being "nearly average" at something after decade of doing it isn't a talent lol. It's alright, I don't think you need to be particularly talented to debut and succeed as a kpop idol, but please let's not over exaggerate. Calling these meagre skills "talent" is an insult to actual talented artists.

    Quote from chounim

    Being "nearly average" at something after decade of doing it isn't a talent lol.

    Respectfully, you don't know what you're talking about.


    Neither KHT48 nor AKB48 were ever known for their dance skills so precisely how much training do you think any of them would've received in that area? Especially when they are training a lot of girls?


    And yes, Sakura DID receive a lot of vocal training in her years of being an idol in Japan but how do you expect her to improve substantially if she is consistently taught using the wrong methods?


    Do you think "puncture the high note" is good vocal direction for someone who is learning to sing?


    Are you even taking any of that into account?

    Edited 2 times, last by CaraFIMIE ().

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from CaraFIMIE

    Not necessarily.


    You would expect that for any other career field like, a teacher, doctor, therapist, etc. But thats because they undergo extensive training and often ONLY focus on that area.


    Idols have to cover different areas and are also very often busy

    Mind you, most of these fields are far more difficult and require way more versatility than being an idol😭


    Like I said, it's about attitude and mindset. There are plenty of idols that have been around for a long time and still make a conscious effort to maintain or improve their skills.

    The ones that want to get better, often do end up getting better or even to passable skills. The ones that don't, don't.


    When you get paid well regardless of whether you're competent or not, and ofc fans making excuses for anything you do, some won't see any reason to be more than what they are.

    I mean, I agree with your take because I can understand where you're coming from, but I dislike that you're simply dumbing it down to "Those who want to get better do and those who don't, don't" while overlooking the fact that it is very often never that simple.


    You say that like you know these idols personally and you know their work ethic when you in fact don't, so I feel it's very unfair that you're saying that in a way that dismisses all their efforts by saying "they are not very good at what they do even after so long, so they must obviously not want to get better" and mind you, some of these idols spend literal hours in the training room each day.

    Stop infantalising and victimising these professional adults. As a working woman I find you attitude simply ridiculous. When I first started working I had to use a software that I never learned how to use in university, now I'm an expert at it and I never even took any courses. Why? Because I NEED TO excel at it, because I would have been fired otherwise, because my job can't be done without it. That's how the real world works, that's what you do when you want to improve and learn. These people have the means and channels to learn and get trained and taught and yet you keep blaming everyone else except for them? They don't feel the urgency to improve because there's no risk to lose their livelihood, because they make tons of money anyway and because they have tons of fans defending them and insisting that breathing in a mic while standing still should now be considered a talent.

    Sakura is not a child, Sakura is someone who debuted as a mediocre idol and is still mediocre a decade and a half later, it's because she is talentless and doesn't work hard enough to improve, despite having access to the means to do so. I'm sorry the truth makes you uncomfortable.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from CaraFIMIE

    I mean, I agree with your take because I can understand where you're coming from, but I dislike that you're simply dumbing it down to "Those who want to get better do and those who don't, don't" while overlooking the fact that it is very often never that simple.


    You say that like you know these idols personally and you know their work ethic when you in fact don't, so I feel it's very unfair that you're saying that in a way that dismisses all their efforts by saying "they are not very good at what they do even after so long, so they must obviously not want to get better" and mind you, some of these idols spend literal hours in the training room each day.

    You are overly defensive.


    Given the way some idols act, carry themselves and how they react to criticism and their own flaws being pointed, it's not hard to recognize why some them simply don't get better.


    Of course there are those that have physical barriers from seeing massive improvements, but I don't think that's all that common as you want it to be

    I feel idols aren't as untalented as people claim in the sense of they have to do more than people give them credit for.


    like singing/ dancing/modeling/ acting/ interacting with fans, being good at interviews and learn how to handle pressure they have to go through. Being an idol isn't easy. Having to do world tours and performing for a long time. it's stressful. Having to deal with criticism and haters you have to develop a thick skin and certain maturity.


    in order to debut an idol you should know the basics as a performer and all of them do. There is a lot more that go unnoticed. Obviously there are more talented idols than others. Some idols are way more talented than some but that doesn't meant idols are necessary untalented. Maybe the right word would be that they have limited skills in comparison to more talented idols.


    it's just that people have certain standards when it comes to performances and there is nothing wrong with that but calling them untalented feels a bit unfair

    Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

    You are overly defensive.


    Given the way some idols act, carry themselves and how they react to criticism and their own flaws being pointed, it's not hard to recognize why some them simply don't get better.


    Of course there are those that have physical barriers from seeing massive improvements, but I don't think that's all that common as you want it to be

    I am not overly defensive, you are overly critical of people you don't know.


    Don't think I missed the shade that you think you are slick with and yes, physical barriers from improvement aren't very common..just like the "talentless" idols that you are so keen to recognize.

    Quote from chounim

    Stop infantalising and victimising these professional adults. As a working woman I find you attitude simply ridiculous. When I first started working I had to use a software that I never learned how to use in university, now I'm an expert at it and I never even took any courses. Why? Because I NEED TO excel at it, because I would have been fired otherwise, because my job can't be done without it. That's how the real world works, that's what you do when you want to improve and learn. These people have the means and channels to learn and get trained and taught and yet you keep blaming everyone else except for them? They don't feel the urgency to improve because there's no risk to lose their livelihood, because they make tons of money anyway and because they have tons of fans defending them and insisting that breathing in a mic while standing still should now be considered a talent.

    Sakura is not a child, Sakura is someone who debuted as a mediocre idol and is still mediocre a decade and a half later, it's because she is talentless and doesn't work hard enough to improve, despite having access to the means to do so. I'm sorry the truth makes you uncomfortable.

    And just like that, you missed the entire essence of this thread.


    Infantilizing and victimizing is not stating that her training isn't all you make it to be. You are quite literally holding her years in the industry against her while entirely ignoring the fact that someone cannot get better at something when they don't receive proper training. She debuted as a mediocre idol and is "still a mediocre idol a decade and a half later" not because she is talentless but because she received mediocre training in that amount of time. It's not that hard to comprehend seeing as no one can even last THAT long in the industry without hard work and effort.


    You don't know her well enough to be so sure that she "doesn't work hard enough to improve" and as a matter of fact, you're being unreasonable in your criticisms of these idols. There is zero need for you to trash more than a decade's worth of her hard work just because YOU don't think she works hard enough. Mind you, I doubt you even care that much about Sakura.


    I can assure you that all of what you think you know about her is what has been consistently rehashed by bitter haters who have used this exact same logic.


    I'm sorry the truth makes YOU so uncomfortable that you can become so triggered regarding an idol whose role and job as an idol impacts you in no way whatsoever.


    Jaemin has been an idol for nearly a decade and Jeno has been an idol for almost 8 years now. Neither of them are average singers (despite debuting under a company that is known to train the industry's best vocalists) and rappers yet but do you see anyone who isn't a bitter kpop fan claiming they are talentless and don't "work hard enough to improve"? No.

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