Do you agree with Karina? Female Idols have no future in Kpop?

Yes. Female idols/groups generally have less longevity.

They mostly succeed based on GP support. At least historically.

There's more active boy groups from earlier gens kicking around with some form of fandom that can continue to support them.

I think most aren't solo material or they haven't been provided the resources to flourish as a soloist. Even if you look at other industries only a few breakthrough from boy and girl groups. If you look at the western music industry it's rare for a soloist to be bigger than the group they came from. Rarely do you get artist like Beyonce, Justin Timberlake, Gwen Stefani, Michael Jackson and a few others that are bigger than the group they came from and a top artist for a long period. Most that attempt to go solo flame out because they just aren't solo material and a bit unlucky.

I don't think Karina was talking about just music and was talking about in general. Idols needs to look at ways they can prolong their careers like getting into acting, variety, MC, working behind the scenes as an advisor or producer, songwriter, etc. There's ways to have a long career outside of music and it's not realistic to rely just on your group activities and need to find ways to have a career after the 7 years is up. Most groups don't renew, so it's up to the idol to have things lined up if they want to stay in the entertainment industry.

I 100% agree with Karina

GG as a group have an expiration date

to date only 6 GG have all members renew with the same company that they started with (SNSD, Dreamcatcher, Mamamoo*, Twice, BP*, RV*) the * is some members with different companies for their individual activities...

female idols may want to do different things other than being a kpop singer (I use the term singer as oppose to idol since idol activities encompass a much broader array of activities beyond singing) such as acting, MCing, variety shows, musicals, cfs, modelling, Youtuber, start a family - hell some may even want out of the industry all together

Lots of kpop idols merely see being a kpop singer as a stepping stone to those different things

Furthermore for the majority of kpop groups being a kpop idols is just not bloody profitable and worthwhile - the average kpop idol makes a pittance and probably their group doesn't even make money at all so therefore of course they have to consider the future

BUT and I will say BUT times are slowly shifting????? GG are lasting longer and have more fandom support in modern times compared to GG in the first and second and 3rd generations???? the big three of the third - BP, RV and Twice have all renewed their initial contracts and continue being idols in one form or another. GG these days are selling more albums compared to the past and thus have greater fandom support - whether that support will last in the long term (post 7/10/15???) years is to be seen

if you take a look at the ratio of 2nd gen by boy groups versus girl groups who are still able to get significant sales and touring today, I think she is right

She is right. In SNSD just Taeyeon was able to keep a good success enough to tour in arenas while in BB as you gave them as examples while GD is way above the others members, Taeyang and Daesung are big enough to tour and they are doing great actually.

just see how many 2nd gen bgs are still touring, releasing music, promoting and compare it to the ggs. It's not about chart success, I'm talking about longevity and in kpop bgs have it way easier.

Historically GGs have had worse longevity than BGs.

But luckily this does seem to changing slowly. GGs nowadays have way bigger fanbases, so now they're more comparable to BGs in terms of loyal support, and not just relying on the fickle public. Hopefully we'll see longer careers among GGs and female idols from newer generations than we did older.

It depends. Is the discussion about charts or success in general? If it's about success, many boy group members with a large individual fandom can survive for a long time, while girl group members have a much harder time because they usually depend on the interest of the general public.

We give too much importance to charts and the opinion of the general public, when the most important thing for the artist is building a loyal fandom. Take Stray Kids and the members of BTS for example. They sell millions of albums and have major world tours without making it into the Melon TOP100, while girl groups can't sell out a stadium in Korea even when they're at their peak.

Just recently it was revealed itzy is the only gg that debut in 2019 that HASN’T disbanded

I don’t know enough about BG to say if this is just a problem for girls in the kpop industry

Tbh kpop never came across as a career with good longevity for anyone! And it seems to be getting worse! Idols seem to be getting younger and younger and now 21 plus is considered old

I read articles of knets comparing Karina to Ian and how old Karina has gotten? She’s literally 25 They said the same thing with aespa and Irene/Rv! I don’t know if male idols are discriminated over their ages as much as female idols but it certainly looks like once you hit a certain age the Korean public turns on you

I think she know best than all the people here. She is there and the rest are just people behind a computer.

As I said in the other thread, Karina is being very thoughtful and very modest in my opinion. It’s true, most female idols have limited careers as idols and so many diversify into other areas, but of the few idols who could make it, I think Karina has a good chance. I also think times are changing and in the future female idols will be able to support themselves as singers if they want to due to the big fan bases they are building.

Quote from David33

Yes, it's not just Kpop, it's the whole music industry.

I think Karina should've made this more clear, because it's not obvious if she's talking about girl groups or female Idols in general. Female Idols can have a long career, even in the Kpop industry. Remain relevant in the MAINSTREAM media is another story. If someone want a long career, they can do it, it's not about gender. If you care about your job, and you're talented enough, you can do it. The industry is sexist, that's not even a question, but I'm sure, most female Idols don't want to be Idols for longer than 7-10 years.

Some of it could be mistranslation but I understand where she's going with it. Overall, if it's about music then not everybody is soloist material. You need a different skillset to succeed as a soloist and many don't have the qualities needed to have a long career from it.

I don't follow enough BGs to know what their landscape is like. However, I do find there's more longevity for male soloist that originated from a group. I think with girl groups fans are quicker to move on than for boy groups. That causes an issue when thinking long-term for the kpop industry. I think it's easier to name male soloist that originated from boy groups than female soloist that originated from girl groups.

Talent doesn't always mean you can have a long career. It's all about building a loyal fan base and female idols might have a harder time doing that than males. I think the kpop industry is tougher for women when they're older than men. That's part of the reason for the Karina statement imo. Overall, I think idols need to have things lined up and make sure skills are up to par, so they can transition to other areas in the korean entertainment industry

This was true for older groups. But female idols are very much able to build long lasting fandom now a days.

However for this to work though the groups need to appeal to the international audience. JYP had the right idea in that he doesn’t care if his groups appeal to the GP or Korea and yet all of them have extremely successful careers touring and being active.

ChatGPT also agrees with Karina. She is a wise woman.

In the K-pop industry, career longevity differs notably between female and male idols, influenced by factors such as societal expectations, industry practices, and individual choices.

📉 Female Idols: Shorter Career Trajectories

• Early Peak and Transition: Female idols often experience a rapid rise to fame in their late teens or early twenties. However, their careers frequently plateau or decline as they approach their mid-20s. This trend is partly due to the industry's preference for younger idols and the societal emphasis on youth and beauty.

• Contractual Dynamics: Many K-pop groups operate under seven-year contracts, leading to disbandment or member departures around the age of 25. This phenomenon, known as the "seven-year curse," is particularly pronounced among girl groups. Seoulbeats

• Limited Solo Opportunities: While some female idols transition into solo careers or other entertainment sectors, opportunities are often limited, and the industry's focus remains on newer, younger talent.

📈 Male Idols: Extended Career Paths

• Late Debuts and Sustained Activity: Male idols often debut slightly later than their female counterparts, sometimes in their early twenties. This delayed start can contribute to longer careers, with many male idols remaining active into their 30s.

• Established Fanbases: Successful male idols often build dedicated fanbases that support their careers over time, facilitating transitions into solo projects, acting, or other entertainment ventures.

• Industry Support: The industry tends to offer more support for male idols pursuing diverse career paths, allowing for sustained activity and visibility.

⚖️ Comparative Overview

🧠 Underlying Factors

Societal Expectations: Cultural norms place a higher premium on the youth and appearance of female idols, leading to earlier career transitions.

Industry Practices: The emphasis on new talent and the "seven-year curse" contribute to shorter careers for female idols.allkpop forums+2Seoulbeats+2KBizoom+2

Support Systems: Male idols often receive more encouragement and resources to pursue extended careers within the entertainment industry.

In summary, while both female and male K-pop idols face intense pressures and challenges, the structural dynamics of the industry and societal expectations often result in shorter career trajectories for female idols compared to their male counterparts.

I don't think she's "right" in the sense that a female idol can't have a long career, because they certainly can, it's more a matter of how long they can stay in the limelight, or how long their group can remain active without them having to go solo. In Korea it really comes down to sexism, with ageism being a large part of that. Koreans rapidly lose interest in older female idols, in a way that they don't for male idols. The older female idols who will have the most success going forward are the ones who can successfully break through to other markets and shed some of their idol trappings.

It also has to be mentioned that a female idol is voluntarily sacrificing much more than a male idol by continuing her career past a certain age. A male idol can do certain things, such as starting a family, that a female idol simply can't if she wants to remain active. That's another key aspect of it.

You need to have something that will keep your fans around even when you're 40-50. And that is talent. It can be as a singer or as a vatiety host/personality. But when it comes to selling out concerts, you must be talented or someone who is as big as the genre itself like BIGBANG members and at one point TVXQ and in the future BTS.

As an example, Kim Jaejoong and XIA Junsu would not have survived as well as they have during their 15+ years that they have been blacklisted if it wasn't for their great vocals. You also have SUJU members like Heechul who's a social butterfly and does great in variety.

Just looking at how many girl groups disbanded last year compared to boy groups, yes I 100% agree with Karina.

the shelf life of female idols is kpop's worst kept secret

Quote from David33

Yes, that was my guess too, I'm not sure where is this interview comes from, probably from Lee Sooman's docu, so maybe they edited out some parts or something, because saying "female Idols don't have a long career" is a bit of an overexaggeration.

I mentioned talent, because as a soloist it's more important than as a group member. Also, if you're a talented singer, writer etc you have a much bigger chance to survive, because you don't have to rely on others. Especially these days when we have internet. Many people release their songs on Youtube, or other platforms, and they're not signed with any label. Obviously, talent is not enough, you need to work hard, and you need a LOT of luck as well.

The entertainment industry is tougher for women in general, not just Kpop. America says hi with their "equal payment" system.

There are many ways to prolong your career in the industry. Exy from WJSN for example seemed to extend her career by working behind the scenes as a songwriter/producer. There are other stuff idols can get involved in if they want to stay in the industry but unsure if most of them are skilled enough to do that because it's something that goes beyond training. If you look at the credits for most projects you rarely see the idols heavily involved. There's only a handful of idols that are heavily invovled in the process and the ones that are will have a long career if they want to because they're valuable to the music creation process.

As an artist if an idol wants to purse that there's different levels to this topic. Are we talking about being able to release music and being signed to a company or are we talking about charting, touring, and moving a lot of units? If it's the latter, then it's much tougher for female idols to have that type of career because it's usually harder for girl groups to build a strong fanbase. However, it's becoming easier for them now due to kpop going global which is why we're seeing groups extend after 7th anniversary, soloist from girl groups selling a lot of units, and many female artist being able to tour due to kpop going global. I do feel it's more common for male idols to have that type of success if that's what they're striving for. However, a female artist can still continue to be an artist but they might not have a strong enough fanbase to move a lot of units, tour, and have less opportunities. I feel we do have to be realistic if they're unable to get that stuff, then it's most likely not meant to be but they can most likely still get gigs in Korea which is still important. There are more opportunities for women today than there was 5-10 years ago. I think it will continue to improve as the industry goes more global.

Quote from Atroce

You need to have something that will keep your fans around even when you're 40-50. And that is talent. It can be as a singer or as a vatiety host/personality. But when it comes to selling out concerts, you must be talented or someone who is as big as the genre itself like BIGBANG members and at one point TVXQ and in the future BTS.

As an example, Kim Jaejoong and XIA Junsu would not have survived as well as they have during their 15+ years that they have been blacklisted if it wasn't for their great vocals. You also have SUJU members like Heechul who's a social butterfly and does great in variety.

I agree with this one.

1. Talent plays a major role in longevity. A talented idol will also be motivated to push on because they have the ability to provide what fans want. Take Taeyeon and Jessica Jung or even TVXQ, Super Junior and now Exo for example who get better with every comeback and have managed to keep their fans for long regardless of all the hardships they've gone through.

2. Beauty/visuals. Yoona is hella talented but her beauty plays a big role in her longevity. Krystal Jung too and others. I've noticed that visuals are well received even among actors.

About Karina, Aespa must be touched by what's happening to RV right now. Members left which means the group won't be active probably forever. That hits differently if you are a GG member too knowing that you have 2-5 years and you'll be in the same exact spot with your Members.

No future is an exaggeration

She has a bright future ahead of her if she plays her cards right. Already famous in S. K and K-pop circle, all that’s left is for her to go solo while the hype is at its peak.

Creativity and buzz can outperform talent — this has been proven time and time again.

Quote from David33

Yes, exactly my point. This is more complex than to just say: "Female Idols don't have long careers."

That's why I think it's not about gender. For example, I don't really see Karina as a soloist for long-term, but I can see her as an actress. I always thought Winter is more suited for the soloist career, especially in SK. To be honest, neither of them will have a long solo career at SME, that's for sure. That company can't handle soloists, or more like don't care about them, and they don't do a good job in the acting industry either.

I wouldn't count out Karina because out of the Aespa singles only hers charted in the top 50. I think she can have a career as a soloist due to her popularity, but her and SM would need to move smart. SM would be smart to give her a solo next year to test waters while the iron is hot. I think as a soloist she has potential to be similar to Jennie in Korea. I just don't think she would have the global appeal because SM's not the best company at appealing to markets outside of Asia.

That's the tricky part because this is a very loaded argument and very case by case. I think most are talking about the commercial aspect rather than the art. If we're talking about earning potential then it's most likely tougher for women imo. I think the key like in all music industries is maintaining a fanbase. I think that aspect is tougher for women because people are quicker to move on from girl groups and it's rare for most to maintain their fanbases which is why most don't renew after the 7th anniversary.

Quote from David33

The only group members whom are still popular after a decade are Taeyeon and Gdragon. That's the whole list.

I’ve been thinking about this line, as I don’t think it’s true. How are you defining popular? If it’s solely about chart topping. Lee Hyori had her second biggest hit a decade after she debuted (U-go-girl), and Sunmi had her biggest (Gashina).