small companies need to stop debuting girl groups

  • I believe that many of these tiny businesses misjudge the expense of everything that goes into forming a group, but there is a distinction to be made between being able to spend money and being able to afford it. You'll need a lot of additional cash to sustain this organisation, and you're not even paying them, putting them in serious debt. All of the proceeds go to the song, music video, publicity, and personnel, and they don't make much money to begin with.


    It's becoming increasingly clear that these businesses underestimate or miscalculate the amount of money required to finance a female group. Let's be honest: Kpop, especially for girl groups, is a double-edged blade. They're EXTREMELY hit-or-miss, whereas boy bands are a safer bet, and that's the unfortunate fact. So, clearly, funding a lady group would be more expensive than funding a masculine group. To get even the tiniest bit of attention, they'll need a lot of stage costumes, regular advertising, and a high-quality MV with a catchy high-quality song. They are also under the pressure of sticking out. Boy bands with these qualities tend to gain a basic following fast, even if it isn't a large one. There's still some cash in the bank. It's just not the same when it comes to girl groups. Even after five comebacks, they sometimes just don't attract any attention.


    So, unless these tiny businesses have a lot of money and at least another three or four comebacks to test the waters, they should really evaluate if training and launching a female group is a smart idea in the first place.


    I just want to clarify that I'm not suggesting or insinuating that businesses should debut more guy groups; I'm simply stating that it all comes down to finance, and girl groups demand far more funding than these organisations can afford. So, why would you do that just to have the girl group split after their first song or comeback due to a lack of funding? Before you started casting ladies to train, you should have assessed and evaluated what you were getting yourself into.

  • well it's all well and good in hindsight but that's the entire jist of supply and demand no?


    a company thinks they have the next big thing so they debut a group and sometimes it succeeds - sometimes they don't...


    the free market and the consumer (us fans) will dictate who succeeds and doesn't from the demand side but every company is free to debut idols (boys and/or girls) from a supply side...

  • well it's all well and good in hindsight but that's the entire jist of supply and demand no?


    a company thinks they have the next big thing so they debut a group and sometimes it succeeds - sometimes they don't...


    the free market and the consumer (us fans) will dictate who succeeds and doesn't from the demand side but every company is free to debut idols (boys and/or girls) from a supply side...

    Preach

  • It's funny to say something like this with Oh My girl badge. The real problem are the people & success stan who don't even try to listen other groups.


    Look at this


    People are more interested in a girl who did nothing cause she's from BIG3 than some GG with actual song and get less than 5 replies if you make a thread about them.

    If you really love something, you have to know how to let go.


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  • If they want to take the risk, let them. If smaller agencies are creative enough though, I think holding out on a lady group idea for any existing guy group ideas isn't a bad play. It could give those agencies additional time, and money, to put more thought into MV concepts, stories, and song market testing. I don't think a lot of lady groups are packged in a compelling way to attract broad appeal outside of looks.

  • It's a risk I guess.


    Sistar came from Starship which was a small company. Same for Mamamoo with RBW. You never know

    You’re right. It’s a risk.

    Because for every Sistar and Mamamoo, there have been hundreds of groups that came and went and barely made a ripple. I feel bad for all those wasted years and dashed dreams, but you will never know if you don’t try, so groups just keep popping up - with their company and their idols hoping that they will somehow get lucky.

  • well it's all well and good in hindsight but that's the entire jist of supply and demand no?


    a company thinks they have the next big thing so they debut a group and sometimes it succeeds - sometimes they don't...


    the free market and the consumer (us fans) will dictate who succeeds and doesn't from the demand side but every company is free to debut idols (boys and/or girls) from a supply side...

    True and the demand is boy groups. Simple facts about life in general the vast majority of kpop fans are girls and they like guys sooooo.

  • It's funny to say something like this with Oh My girl badge. The real problem are the people & success stan who don't even try to listen other groups.


    Look at this


    People are more interested in a girl who did nothing cause she's from BIG3 than some GG with actual song and get less than 5 replies if you make a thread about them.

    The problem is there are too many groups. Unless you don't mind spending your whole life listening to kpop there is no way to give a try to every group let alone try to Stan them (actively spending money to purchase their content)


    Oh My Girl is from WM, they already have a big successful group before (B1A4) and trainees on iZone. They could afford making OMG afloat until they could buy them a Queendom appearance. OMG by definition debuted in a top 20 kpop company


    If you think OMG is a example of a true small company than you have no idea of how many companies and girlgroups are debuting in kpop every year. For each Oh My Girl there are at least other 20 girl groups who train for years, debut, have a comeback and then just dissappear

  • True and the demand is boy groups. Simple facts about life in general the vast majority of kpop fans are girls and they like guys sooooo.

    and that is correct my friend but as they say it's better to have tried and failed then never have tried at all no?

  • Risks have to be made. I would rather most companies risk it and fail, than have no companies try it at all.


    If no small companies took those risks we'd have no Mamamoo, no Oh My Girl, no Gfriend.


    That's not a world I want to be part of.

    Easy and comfortable to say as consumers. Is not you the one who are losing your youth and making trainee debts


    Indeed, which risks are being made? The companies debut groups and then let the trainees themselves take a debt to pay their own promotions, music videos, outfits, etc. And when the trainee debt money goes out they stop coming back.


    I agree the market should stay free, however it needs to be regulated. If idols have actual working rights and trainees debits were forbidden I doubt so many companies would be willing to "Taking risks". The reason why SO MANY groups debuts is because there are few to no risks from a financial standpoint

  • It's not. High risk, little return. And most of them choose this when they are still minors

    no disagree? there's plenty of people around the world that chase their dreams of becoming the next holywood superstar, adele, michael jordan, usain bolt, lionel messi, etc etc no?

    isn't the same thing for kpop?


    i mean the high risk little return is what happens in practice but the goal or dream is obviously to be the next bp, bts, exo, twice right?

  • If you think OMG is a example of a true small company than you have no idea of how many companies and girlgroups are debuting in kpop every year. For each Oh My Girl there are at least other 20 girl groups who train for years, debut, have a comeback and then just dissappear

    An ExoL saying something like this to a Moomoos you got some nerves :eyebrowsr:


    More seriously, i just use OMG example cause i saw OP have an OMG badge that's all. And i find this ironic to say something like this, when you know the story of a group like OMG.


    The problem is there are too many groups. Unless you don't mind spending your whole life listening to kpop there is no way to git a try to every group let alone try to Stan them (actively spending money to purchase their content)

    The problem come from people who is satisfied with the ease of taking everything that BIG3 companies give them, when I see some people not liking a song but listened to it several times and giving it several chances (it seems that these people force themselves to love this music) when it comes from BIG3 and these same people don't even try to listen to new groups/soloist. It's just not fair and that's the biggest problem.


    And I find the excuse of too many groups really too much, in our time it's easy to launch playlists, sites like Youtube & Spotify have plenty of them and make you discover a lot of things. I personally discovered lots of songs and artists on this forum, the exchange and access to culture has never been easier than since the invention of the Internet.


    When we want small companies to stop starting new artists, it's extremely serious. You do not seem to understand that it is precisely these small companies that are the last bulwark in artistic creation and musical experimentation. The BIG3 companies they do marketing and their songs and bands are standardized. How many GGs from BIG3 have we been able to produce their own music? None, they are just there to be pretty unfortunately (that's the way of thinking of these companies). It also happens in small companies, there are also a lot of sordid stories around it, but there are also small companies that try to get started sincerely and do a really good job, and these companies also have the right to have a chance.

    If you really love something, you have to know how to let go.


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  • well it's all well and good in hindsight but that's the entire jist of supply and demand no?


    a company thinks they have the next big thing so they debut a group and sometimes it succeeds - sometimes they don't...


    the free market and the consumer (us fans) will dictate who succeeds and doesn't from the demand side but every company is free to debut idols (boys and/or girls) from a supply side...

    eugh business talk <X

    i really wanna drop economics

  • i was concerned about how this thread wasn't to but this sounds about right to me honestly

  • I have nerves thanks. Can't say the same about you, your last nerve must have died for quite a while


    I already answer why companies aren't actually taking any risks only sploiting minors and making them take debts. Most of kpop groups aren't a liability they are the source of income of the companies.


    Small companies don't expect their idols to be big except when they are really serious, and those are few. Source Music and Bighit were funded by businessman who worked in the industry and have a clear plan for their idols, but those companies are on the minority. If companies were actually obligated to spend their OWN money to debut groups instead of resorting in nasty trainees debts then I would have no problem with their existence, they would debut, flop and then close their doors because they lack financial liquidity.


    Remove trainee debts and give working rights to idols and the problem is solved. Small companies will just stop debuting groups, which is precisely what I want

  • there's actually pros of getting allkill

    the others well purely cosmetic...i mean i think you personally my friend probably could have bought a signed edition of gidle's final mini with soojin if you hadn't spent it on aesthetics lol

  • there's actually pros of getting allkill

    the others well purely cosmetic...i mean i think you personally my friend probably could have bought a signed edition of gidle's final mini with soojin if you hadn't spent it on aesthetics lol

    I thought about it honestly, but I think the delivery would have been way too complicated I preferred to abandon the idea :peperain:

    If you really love something, you have to know how to let go.


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  • I have nerves thanks. Can't say the same about you, your last nerve must have died for quite a while

    Sorry if I upset you, but I thought the joke was pretty clear since my next sentence started with "more seriously".



    I will stop the debate here, I fully understand your point of view which is based on the economy, but I believe that we must stop seeing the art world as a classic economic environment. It is an essential component of our world and our societies but it is also one of the greatest danger in world artistic production since art is transformed into a simple consumer product and also tends to mass standardization.

    If you really love something, you have to know how to let go.


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  • Sorry if I upset you, but I thought the joke was pretty clear since my next sentence started with "more seriously".



    I will stop the debate here, I fully understand your point of view which is based on the economy, but I believe that we must stop seeing the art world as a classic economic environment. It is an essential component of our world and our societies but it is also one of the greatest danger in world artistic production since art is transformed into a simple consumer product and also tends to mass standardization.

    Ok, thank you and sorry. I overstated myself, shouldn't take your post as offensive, I apologize for insulting your intelligence, it's wrong and shouldn't happen


    I do agree about your instance, however I'm not really talking about economics, I'm talking about sociology. We shouldn't sacrifice youth lives, even if they want to badly to become idols, the structure of the industry does not allow them to pursue their dreams without being backed up by companies, and companies in this context exist only to exploit their dreams. Some industries will require some level of investment, even if it's art


    For instance, to film a movie you need money to hire staff and equipment. Even if it's independent cinema. To make indie games, you need some fundraising to pay developers. The problem with kpop idols is they are using the idols themselves to start their business, it's like if a movie studio started asking their actors to fund their movies with with the aggravation that most actors would be underage teenagers that are sacrificing school classes to train


    If they want to pursue music artistry, there are far less expensive ways to do so, independent singers can release music by themselves without being exploit by companies

  • I somewhat agree. Majority of these companies can’t afford it and use sponsors, get loans and put the trainees under massive debts. There’s a lot of horrible stories about these things but then you have actual children out there wanting to be K-pop stars and pick random companies just to debut or are manipulated and don’t know any better.


    Elris Sohee is a good example of this. On K-pop star JYP asked her why did you signed a contract to a small label when you could’ve been in a better agency. She said that she signed to the first agency she auditioned for who gave her a contract. JYP said that she should have shopped around and chosen the best agency.

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  • I somewhat agree. Majority of these companies can’t afford it and use sponsors, get loans and put the trainees under massive debts. There’s a lot of horrible stories about these things but then you have actual children out there wanting to be K-pop stars and pick random companies just to debut or are manipulated and don’t know any better.


    Elris Sohee is a good example of this. On K-pop star JYP asked her why did you signed a contract to a small label when you could’ve been in a better agency. She said that she signed to the first agency she auditioned for who gave her a contract. JYP said that she should have shopped around and chosen the best agency.

    with Sohee’s talent and beauty she could’ve really made it big if she tried for a bigger company

  • It's a risk I guess.


    Sistar came from Starship which was a small company. Same for Mamamoo with RBW. You never know

    Starship, RBW and Source Music (Gfriend) had Founders that had contacts within the Industry, their Founders worked for either Big Hit, JYPE, Cube or SME.


    So the groups that those companies debut have a higher chance at getting on a Music Show over the majority that we will never see.


    I do agree, it is possible for a small company to make it, afterall the Big 3 were all small companies at one time

  • Easy and comfortable to say as consumers. Is not you the one who are losing your youth and making trainee debts


    Indeed, which risks are being made? The companies debut groups and then let the trainees themselves take a debt to pay their own promotions, music videos, outfits, etc. And when the trainee debt money goes out they stop coming back.


    I agree the market should stay free, however it needs to be regulated. If idols have actual working rights and trainees debits were forbidden I doubt so many companies would be willing to "Taking risks". The reason why SO MANY groups debuts is because there are few to no risks from a financial standpoint

    there are quite alot of risks, companies don't run on air, if the idols are unpopular/nugu and either don't debut or make no money's no amount of" trainee debt" will sustain them. The agency still has to pay for promos, filming, production etc, even if the trainee is paying that stuff out of pocket the agency is still footing part of that bill and others that people don't think about that a company has to pay for, all the admin costs etc, managers, staffing, security, flights,hotels, deal negotiations etc etc. If a idol or trainee proves to be unprofitable the agency Wil cut them loose after their contract ends, regardless of the person having the ability to pay whatever portion of the debt they're responsible for. Debuting idols were always a huge risk especially for small agencies. Now all the afformentioned rights and unions etc Would definitely make the job better for the idols, the only unfortunate downside is this would make the bar for success and failure even higher as the costs for debut etc would go up quite alot, this would cut out extremely small agencies

  • Starship, RBW and Source Music (Gfriend) had Founders that had contacts within the Industry, their Founders worked for either Big Hit, JYPE, Cube or SME.


    So the groups that those companies debut have a higher chance at getting on a Music Show over the majority that we will never see.


    I do agree, it is possible for a small company to make it, afterall the Big 3 were all small companies at one time

    Thats false narrative today. History time😎 okay here in Korea kpop is was used as the culture arm of the government, its still used today albeit a lesser role than used to for spreading the nations soft power. As a result of this the big 3 you mentioned were some of the very first so some of their finances was supplied by the government our taxes went into them, this Kickstarted the industry, so these agencies could afford to have a no debt policy, even more so being the first kpop pretty much they debuts the equivalent of BTS every generation so they had massive success and popularity. Fast forward to today and now the market is packed with idols and lots of competition and no government handouts. You'd be hard pressed to start a new agency without a debt model and expect to not go bankrupt, unless you had a BTS to debut in the next few months and you knew your group was at that level before the risk

  • It's not. High risk, little return. And most of them choose this when they are still minors

    there's plenty of people around the world that chase their dreams of becoming the next holywood superstar, adele, michael jordan, usain bolt, lionel messi, etc etc no?

    This pretty much. People who have the tenacity and optimism (or less kindly, naivety) to pursue a career in K-Pop won't just stop when the specific opportunity to join a smaller company becomes less accessible to them. Especially when you consider the majority join K-Pop (at least at first), to pursue other entertainment-related career paths, they would just pursue other "high risk, little return" options, because that's what their personalities are tailored towards.

  • More regulations are needed that protect contract workers.


    Like a maximum debt allowed or minimum wages regardless of income.

  • A kpop world with even more hegemony of the big labels, particularly the big 4?


    No thanks, god that sounds awful. Big 4 already have fallen into the stultifying routine of foreign songwriters, songwriting by committee, songs designed not for any artistic sake but just hoovering maximum profit from teenages and young people.


    This year alone, some of the better girl groups and songs have been by nugus or relative nugus, and the big 4 have put out practically nothing but garbage. The best and most creative ideas will always come from the the small labels, because they cannot afford to do anything else but swing for the rafters.


    They'll be the ones taking a chance on say, Hwasa, or a Soyeon, or even an RM (when Bighit was small) - people that don't always fit the specific "kpop" cookie-cutter mold, but who are proper artists and have bold and colourful careers. You wouldn't have cases like Exid, following the OP's example. You wouldn't have Brave Girls going viral after years of struggling for success.


    Those are the types of people who would never get a look in at SM, or JYP, or YG, and to me, a diet of just their idols would be like being flogged with a warm lettuce.


    If you take away any chance of disrupting the status quo, then the GG landscape would be very bleak indeed. Give the world a Hot Issue - Icons, or a Pink Fantasy - Poison, or a Bvndit - Dumb over almost any mid-tier and big group release in the last 3 years.

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