4th GG digital power is bigger than 3rd Gen...

  • I've just checked Circle mid year chart and we have now 24 GG songs in the top 100, with more to come to the year end. Last year the number was 25 and the trend will continue next year


    To put things in perspective, the peak of 3rd Gen was 2018 with 19 songs, 2015, 2016 and 2017 all had less songs than 2018



    4th gen top girlgroups are on 2nd gen level. They can chart their whole albums and have several hits charting high at the same time


    2nd gen of course still bigger, because they have not only top GGs but several mid tier GGs releasing hits occasionally, much more than 4th gen



    But overall 4th gen seems the second biggest generation in Korea and I believe they will keep dominating the next 2-3 years



    What do you think?

  • Well it's really hard to denote the shifts in music listening and purchasing habits.


    But from what I've noticed, it does generally seem that 4th gen has the strongest dominance of any of the generations digitally in Korea.


    Gen 3 was basically anemic in terms of the amount of girl groups. Like one can't deny the permeation of BP/Twice/RV internationally, but the entire era was basically just centered on them with nobody but Gfriend and Mamamoo ever showing up.


    And Gen 2 while being much more spread out in who could manage to hit, never really had the kinda prevailing stretches of time that gen 4 does.


    A hot song would be on the charts for maybe 3-4 months in gen 2, and nowadays, they'll be there upwards of a year or potentially more

  • I remember a lotta folks claiming Kpop was dead a couple years ago lol.


    Kpop will always survive, as long as folks keep having kids (which is actually something that shouldnt be taken for granted, birthrate numbers are kinda terrifying right now =O ).


    The top 3 acts in Korea right now are 4th gen GGs. Ive, NJ and Idle. I have a gut feeling not even IU could unseat them anymore, something just tells me that her mega concert in Seoul was her final last stand in terms of being at the top of the Korean music industry pyramid. There's a certain momentum that you can feel with each artist and i think with the hiatus and the news of her BF, i just feel it in my gut that she has relinquished her crown, just like Bigbang, the only digital act at her level, passed into history last year.


    And no one else stands a chance of unseating the top 4th gen GGs these days. Even the musty balladeers and trottists, even the SMTM rappers, all of the hodgepodge that makes up the Melon Chart where every genre gets thrown in, all of the old guard are falling away one by one. This is Father Time at work, and he is inexorable.


    And i think you're selling the mid tier in 4th gen a little short. LSRFM/Aespa/Stayc/NMIXX/Itzy have all charted in the top 10 of Melon, two of these at the very top. I wouldnt rule out any of these groups returning to the top 10, top 5 on Melon charts with bonafide hits.



  • Calling these the mid tier of Gen 4 is a fucking joke.


    They're top tiers.


    They are not the equivalents of an After School or a Brown Eyed Girls or a Secret. Be honest now.

  • there are more songs bc song a top of melon last longer there, the chart push them down way slower compared to when the chart was in 2018

    Then why specifically GGs are pushed?


    Why not soloists? They used to have a bigger presence


    BGs as well, they plummeted. From 2015 to 2018 they used to have 12 to 14 songs, very close to GGs actually. The number plummeted to 5-6 a year, more than half of that are BTS'



    GGs are just more popular. They are eating BGs market share in idol music


    OST songs popularity degraded as well, replaced by trot and GGs songs

  • nah nah korea never care really for bg beyond 2nd, I feel people overestimate that

    when yg was in their good years there was ikon and winner but aside from that other semi-popular bg were never steady top10 hitmakers


    exo was really driven by fandom after first days fall off, bts is the exception but the last few releases been...well


    ggs always been more popular, for every gen, from 2021 onward those new gg songs could stay way longer int top10 as the charts changed, before the longest song in top10 was some wonder girls song (22 weeks), now 20 weeks seem like just a standard and

  • nah nah korea never really for bg beyond 2nd, I feel people overstimate that

    Indeed, a good part of the BGs entries even during 3rd Gen were 2nd BGs (Block B, Highlight/Beast, Bigbang) as well as some 3rd Gen (EXO, BTS, Wanna One, ikon, Winner) but still they used to have some presence. Now we have BTS, Seventeen and once in a blue moon NCT and that's it. It's clear GGs now have the piece of the market that, in past, belong to BGs




    The rest of your point makes no sense. Soloists and non kpop duos/bands far far outdid girlgroups digitally since 2012. While soloists still releasing hits and have a good share of the yearly hits one just needs to take a look on the mid year chart to see 4th gen girlgroups are absolute beasts, 12 of the 20 biggest songs are GG songs

  • Yeah in 3rd gen GP did not care about GG’s overall music at all. Blackpink basically had way too few releases to even qualify but over all literally no one was listening to GG albums. Not even the promoted b sides. Just he TTs used to be hits.


    I think 3rd gen GG’s were the weakest GG’s have ever been in Korea which might be way too controversial to say lol.

  • Indeed, a good part of the BGs entries even during 3rd Gen were 2nd BGs (Block B, Highlight/Beast, Bigbang) as well as some 3rd Gen (EXO, BTS, Wanna One, ikon, Winner) but still they used to have some presence. Now we have BTS, Seventeen and once in a blue moon NCT and that's it. It's clear GGs now have the piece of the market that, in past, belong to BGs




    The rest of your point makes no sense. Soloists and non kpop duos/bands far far outdid girlgroups digitally since 2012. While soloists still releasing hits and have a good share of the yearly hits one just needs to take a look on the mid year chart to see 4th gen girlgroups are absolute beasts, 12 of the 20 biggest songs are GG songs

    I been there to see how it was

    everything has it phases, and we are in one where ggs are above others, but those existed before (2018,2012-3 etc), there was a time nobody come chart in top ten in nov/dec bc it was all of smtm and that didnt happen this year but novelty run out, people look for other things, its moves and then cmb when new groups debut, its a cycle that I have personally happen 2 see 2 times already

  • And like always i predicted


  • Yeah in 3rd gen GP did not care about GG’s overall music at all. Blackpink basically had way too few releases to even qualify but over all literally no one was listening to GG albums. Not even the promoted b sides. Just he TTs used to be hits.


    I think 3rd gen GG’s were the weakest GG’s have ever been in Korea which might be way too controversial to say lol.

    Mamamoo had some circunstancial mid hits with their pre releases too


    Oh I've ALWAYS stated 3rd gen GG digital power was overrated to say the least. To put things in perspective mid tier BGs with no fandom like Block B, ikon, Winner and BtoB used to have more listeners to their side tracks than allegedly bigger girlgroups like Twice and Gfriend


    In second gen whole albums could chart, at least in the first few days/weeks. During 3rd Gen the public consensus was GG music was just generic and they albums were not good enough to get a play


    I believe this was due to the fact the number of monthly downloads being limited, so people saved them to "true artists", mainly soloists. I don't know if guys here are aware, but mostly music services used to have subscriptions that allowed you to have a fixed number of downloads to buy every month. You could only listen to the songs you choose.


    With streaming there was no longer such need to save your precious downloads and people started to listen girlgroup music again. Occasionally some of them go viral and turn into hits

  • again the question is not who is bigger but rather the criteria and metrics used to determine "biggerness"


    1. there are more 4th gen groups promoting this year than 3rd gen (GG that is)

    like have even 25 3rd gen GG even cb within 1st half of 2023


    2. Op used absolute metrics which there is nothing wrong with that - the question is why?

    since there are other criteria one has to consider as well

    (I'm not saying any is the right metric but to merely consider them)


    for example what of all the 4th GG groups that failed to chart in the top 100

    maybe something like of the 3rd gen groups that have cb in 1st half 2023 how many of those charted in top 100 and compare the same for 4th gen groups that have cb in 1st half 2023 and those that charted in 2023


    if the question is the top 4th gen GG > the top 3rd gen GG then that's an entirely different question

  • I dont believe you understand what's I compared. I'm not saying 4th gen is stronger than 3rd gen right now, I'm saying 4th gen is outcharting 3rd gen on their peak

  • I dont believe you understand what's I compared. I'm not saying 4th gen is stronger than 3rd gen right now, I'm saying 4th gen is outcharting 3rd gen on their peak

    sorry my bad but my overall point stands

    why only use no. of songs charted in top 100 as the metric to determine charting at the peak

    why not use gaon or circle points or whatever they were called?

    ie. hypothetical - if in 2018 or whatever the 19 3rd gen songs have lets say 1b points but the 24 4th gen songs in 2023 only had say 500m points - one could argue that the 19 3rd gen songs are "bigger"


    also the other thing I mentioned was why not use the no. of cb the 3rd gen GG had in 1st half of 2018 vs the no. of cb the 4th gen GG had in 1st half of 2023 then see how many songs charted in the top 100 or whatever


    (again I'm not saying the two things I've said about are exhaustive just that they are some examples of differnet methodlody)

  • For a couple of reasons


    First, the number of points decreased a lot. Koreans shifted to streaming and for some reason Gaon/Circle never updated the methodology of how they count digital points but basically downloads counted more than stream counts nowadays


    Second, circle for some reason still not counting YouTube which is currently the biggest streaming service in Korea

  • I’m not so sure Nowadays songs chart longer. But I can say now they can chart their b-sides. The fact the only hit b-sides from 3rd gen are FY and dolphin


    And like always i predicted


    Charting well ≠ impact

  • For a couple of reasons


    First, the number of points decreased a lot. Koreans shifted to streaming and for some reason Gaon/Circle never updated the methodology of how they count digital points but basically downloads counted more than stream counts nowadays


    Second, circle for some reason still not counting YouTube which is currently the biggest streaming service in Korea

    so goan/circle changed their methodology from 2018 compared to 2023?

    does that mean that it isn't comparable to compare songs in 2018 to songs in 2023?


    doesn't that make it more comparable since if they didn't count YT then and they aren't counting it now? or are you implying they should count it now and thus by not counting it it makes it skewed?

  • so goan/circle changed their methodology from 2018 compared to 2023?

    does that mean that it isn't comparable to compare songs in 2018 to songs in 2023?


    doesn't that make it more comparable since if they didn't count YT then and they aren't counting it now? or are you implying they should count it now and thus by not counting it it makes it skewed?

    The opposite, they didn't changed the methodology when they should have. In 2018 there was no YT music in Korea. Nowadays they have and it counts for 30% of their market. Not counting YT skew the total market consumption

  • How many 2nd gen groups released top 10 songs?


    Let me see if I can think of some.


    SNSD

    Wonder girls

    2NE1

    KARA

    T-ara

    Apink

    Sistar

    Girls Day

    F(X)

    Miss A

    4 Minute



    Who am I forgetting?

  • For a couple of reasons


    First, the number of points decreased a lot. Koreans shifted to streaming and for some reason Gaon/Circle never updated the methodology of how they count digital points but basically downloads counted more than stream counts nowadays


    Second, circle for some reason still not counting YouTube which is currently the biggest streaming service in Korea

    Downloads make more money for companies/ groups (on a per unit/single stream basis), is a bigger commitment by the fan, I can see why they would count for more.


    The question is how much more should they be counted for.

  • Downloads make more money for companies/ groups (on a per unit/single stream basis), is a bigger commitment by the fan, I can see why they would count for more.


    The question is how much more should they be counted for.

    I agree, overall stream has slow incomr, while downlaods are quickly income


    Over time streaming might lead to higher revenue because you can stream the same songs year later, while a song you buy one time and never again



    However Circle charr give points the songs in the top 200. During the time a song charts in top 200 is more likely to have far higher points thanks to downloads than to streaming.

  • How could I forget BEG was 2nd Gen, I thought about them but I was thinking they were 1st gen, stupid of me.


    I do not think Rainbow or Dal Shabet had a top 10 song (I can't remember) [On Gaon]. All the others sure did.


    How could I forget Crayon pop, the momoland of the 2nd Gen.



    So for sure 17 2nd Gen Girl groups had at least 1 top 10 song, and possible 19 did (if Rainbow and Dal Shabet did).



    I guess one point of contention is when did 2nd Gen start?


    I have seen 2012 as the year used, but that may be for Boy groups.

  • Rainbow had 3. A, Sweet Dream and To Me


    Dal Shabet had 1, Bling Bling

  • Let me see if I can do 3rd Gen


    Twice

    Black Pink

    Red Velvet

    Momoland

    Mamamoo

    Oh My Girl

    I.O.I (do they count?)


    Lovelyz?


    That is all I can think off. so 7 or 8 total


    If we include those that debuted in 2012 it goes up to 10/11


    EXID

    AOA

    Crayon pop


    So at most 16 2nd Gen Girl groups vs 11 3rd Gen groups.


    if we say 2012 is Gen 2, then 19 vs 8.





    Then again, the debate can be if G-IDLE is 3.5 gen or 4th Gen.

  • IOI definitely count


    Lovelyz don't have a top 10 I'm afraid

  • IOI definitely count


    Lovelyz don't have a top 10 I'm afraid

    wikipedia claims destiny went to #7 on Gaon



    CIRCLE CHART - 써클차트
    New Circular Wave.
    circlechart.kr

  • I believe only Hybe? I mean SM released 1, YG none and while JYP released 2 Nmixx is such a non factor and Itzy is dying...


    I guess Produce has a lot do to with it too. iZone and its sisters groups Ive and Les Serafim increases the pool

    I think 3rd gen was generally too short to even compare with 4th gen. The First ggs debut in 2014 while the generation end 2017. That mean whole generation only last 4 years for girl groups and 2017 was pretty empty year if we are talking about impact in Korea. If 4th gen start 2018 and continue until now, we have already had almost 6 years and who knows how long it will still last.

    1592030135-1.jpg

  • I think 3rd gen was generally too short to even compare with 4th gen. The First ggs debut in 2014 while the generation end 2017. That mean whole generation only last 4 years for girl groups and 2017 was pretty empty year if we are talking about impact in Korea. If 4th gen start 2018 and continue until now, we have already had almost 6 years and who knows how long it will still last.

    1592030135-1.jpg

    I believe all the next big GGs will be marketed as 5th gen

  • I think 3rd gen was generally too short to even compare with 4th gen. The First ggs debut in 2014 while the generation end 2017. That mean whole generation only last 4 years for girl groups and 2017 was pretty empty year if we are talking about impact in Korea. If 4th gen start 2018 and continue until now, we have already had almost 6 years and who knows how long it will still last.

    1592030135-1.jpg

    True.


    3rd Gen should be 2012-2017 or 2014-2018

  • BtoB charted fine starting midway into their career (middle-late 3rd gen), I don't know if they classify as 2nd or 3rd Gen.

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