RE: Groups that self-produce music: Gidle, Ateez, Stray Kids, Seventeen. Do they make better music or not?

  • OP



    Not better but more personal. For some songs we don't care whether it's personal or not but for some others it makes a lot more sense and reinforces the message of the song.


    For example a love breakup song, if the lyrics are written by the singer himself based on his own personal experience it will always be more personal than by someone who writes it in the studio. Yes the producer can also have a personal story that he himself also lived like the singer, but it is the singer who is in contact with the public so it's always better when the message comes from him it reinforces the connection between the artist and his audience.

  • There are some really great veteran song writers. Not everyone is made to perform and it’s an insult to those excellent producers and song writers.


    Whether a song is good or bad is judged independently of how it came to be.


    Song writing can be important more so for stanning or feeling connected to the artist some people like that connection and others don’t care. Both types of artists exist and it’s up to you to choose what’s important for you.


    I think the reason self produced imo isn’t as required in kpop to feel connected to the artists is because kpop groups give so much content that there are other ways people find to connect with them.

  • I think the reason self produced imo isn’t as required in kpop to feel connected to the artists is because kpop groups give so much content that there are other ways people find to connect with them.

    I'm not agree most of the content is completely scripted and therefore fake. Most of kpop fans are young and just don't care about all of this. Kpop above all sells aesthetics and visuals it has a cool and trendy side that appeals to young people, each generation has its own trendy musical genre before there was rock, hip-hop ...

  • Depends on the songs, as for every group. I won't like a song for the sake of being self produced.

    What's different is that it can connect a deeper connection between the song, the group and fans. Fan songs especially, do have to have members participating in it. Rap too, I prefer when it's written by the rapper himself.

    Also beyond producing, it can be interesting when they have a hand in the concept like i-dle's Soyeon with Tomboy and Nxde.

  • It makes no difference to me if it's self produced or not, if a kpop group has their own creative team going along with them on their journey which is true for most kpop groups. It says more about you than the group if u don't feel it's personal enough.

  • Most people don't listen to songs to relate to the singer themselves... They relate to the song. Like if I'm in a sad place and I listen to sad music idgaf if the singer is telling me a personal story because I'm already relating myself to the song outside of them.

  • Most people don't listen to songs to relate to the singer themselves... They relate to the song. Like if I'm in a sad place and I listen to sad music idgaf if the singer is telling me a personal story because I'm already relating myself to the song outside of them.

    That's an interesting take here.


    But if you personally know that the song was written with regard to the singer's experience or a personal experience, you don't think that can create a link between you and the artist or amplify the message of the song ?

  • That's an interesting take here.


    But if you personally know that the song was written with regard to the singer's experience or a personal experience, you don't think that can create a link between you and the artist or amplify the message of the song ?

    Not usually.


    Paul McCartney and John Lennon wrote a lot of songs about their moms dying but the song that hit me most when my mom died was a song George Harrison wrote about the Beatles breaking up.

  • Yes, generally speaking self-producing idols write better music for their groups.


    Because most of the time those songs are actually written with the group in mind. Their strengths, their variations., what they bring to the table. Parts crafted with those members in mind.


    All the "store-bought" songs feel so impersonal, not to mention by default if they idol has actually self composed or the song is classified as "self-produced", then we also avoid the song by by committee rubbish that makes songs so empty and soulless.


    Eye of the beholder etc..

  • The only "self produced" group that I "care" is BB and bc i love their songs so in my case i have to really love the song to think "oh, this is what self produced means" or something like this. But overall I don't see a difference in quality.

    About the ones mentioned in the title I do think Idle made a difference in their career. Their concepts, songs and hardwork are worth praising.

  • So if idols who self produce knows their teams strengths better, what's the difference between them and in house producers who work specifically for a certain group or often with them?

    Because none work for one group and one group alone, there's a difference between academic understanding and lived understanding (see below), and in-house producers are still guns for hire in the general sense, and they rarely if ever the creative lead.


    For my example about academic vs lived understanding - SKZ and SVT have many examples, but the best illustration of this is My Bag by Idle, their B-side that charted extremely well.


    The verses on that? That's not simply something an in-house producer can or will come up with. There's matters of understanding a group a in-house producer just doesn't have of the group, even working for the label.


    You'd have to be writing from a POV of the people in that group to come up with a song like My Bag, and the verses as they are. That's why the song absolutely popped off in Korea.


    Self-production songs are almost always superior to me, and generally reflect what I listen to in all genres. I want groups performing the music they wrote. That's true of all genres, Rap, Hip-Hop, Rock, Metal, Pop etc. Does quality matter? Of course it does, and I'm discerning as any. But there's simply too much music out to give my time deep diving groups that don't contribute musically.

  • Gidle has one of the best discographies of all time according to me and I like Seventeen’s music more than the average group. For Ateez I liked their earlier songs at but their recent releases aren’t as good. Skz music doesn’t fit my taste at all.


    So really, it depends on the group. Self-producing groups don’t necessarily have better or worse music, they’re just more involved in it. I do think their style can often be more consistent and personal. Even if their concept changes, like Seventeen slowly switching to a maturer concept, their music still has the same tone and base-sound. Sometimes groups that aren’t involved in their own music comeback with songs that sound like they don’t belong to them. Twice More & More for example doesn’t sound like a Twice song to me (tho Twice have steadily gotten more involved in their own albums). However, groups who mostly work with the same producer, like BP and StayC, have the same consistency as self-producing groups, tho not as personal.


    Also what “self-producing” means is kinda vague. None of the groups mentioned in the title really work the same way.

  • I'm not agree most of the content is completely scripted and therefore fake. Most of kpop fans are young and just don't care about all of this. Kpop above all sells aesthetics and visuals it has a cool and trendy side that appeals to young people, each generation has its own trendy musical genre before there was rock, hip-hop ...

    This not really a relevant point lol just because something is fake doesn’t mean people don’t connect to it. Kpop 100% relies on its para social relationships to form connections. I don’t believe it’s the song writing all that much.

  • This point doesn’t make any sense to me. Actually more than the other members the company producers and the creative directors at the company probably 100% know more about the members. Maybe your point would make sense for soloists. Certainly not group settings.

  • I think I can appreciate it when idols are deeply involved with their music, but that doesn't mean I need it to feel emotionally invested in the music. I listen to so much music in general without knowing the context or people behind it...

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  • This not really a relevant point lol just because something is fake doesn’t mean people don’t connect to it. Kpop 100% relies on its para social relationships to form connections. I don’t believe it’s the song writing all that much.

    I think it's an interesting take here.


    I could tell you connecting on something fake make us wrong about what we rely on, so are we relying on nothing or something fictionnal like a character of a book or a movie ?


    But at the same time it is said that it's often necessary to dissociate the person and the artist. So we could say in itself that an artist is also an imaginary character ? For me I think that's when it's interesting to have more personal songs, that's what makes the connection between the person and the artist that's why I think it connects with people in a way.

  • I think it's an interesting take here.


    I could tell you connecting on something fake make us wrong about what we rely on, so are we relying on nothing or something fictionnal like a character of a book or a movie ?


    But at the same time it is said that it's often necessary to dissociate the person and the artist. So we could say in itself that an artist is also an imaginary character ? For me I think that's when it's interesting to have more personal songs, that's what makes the connection between the person and the artist that's why I think it connects with people in a way.

    I mean you feel the songs are personal but like even songs are probably created at the direction of the company and to suit a specific image created for the group as opposed their own experiences.


    Kpop groups are heavily controlled whether it’s self composed or not. So for me it’s a moot point.

  • Realistically speaking only a professional could objectively judge the technical skill, depth and originality of a composition and the overall production quality in a song. For your average kpop stan, untrained ears and people who do not have the academic or musical background it's all about a matter of personal taste.


    Artistically speaking, those who are involved in the creative process will always have the upper hand mainly because they have a better grasp on their art and its meaning. There's no one who knows you and your experiences better than your own self.

    In the end it all comes down to what you're looking for in a song, some pay more attention to the lyrics and emotionally relate to them, some just want to have fun and vibe with it.

  • If I listen to a song that is not pop music, I don’t really care if the Artist wrote it themself or not? I should be able to relate to the lyrics, that’s how I feel connected.


    Is it better? It’s about the Song itself. At the end of the day someone wrote it and i either like it or not. Just because you produce your own music doesn’t necessarily mean it’s better, just like songs produced by others aren’t necessarily bad.


    Also there is a different between in-house producers and those who sell their songs to various artists. In-house producers create music that fits the Artist they are working with.

  • I for one agree on the fact, that songs written about something personal, sung by the person themselves catch me in the feels way more deeply. Altough, many times I do still like songs written and sung by different people, but in those cases the emotional deepness is often missing. In some cases however, when the singer and the writer get on the same page, and the singer or another writer shows great lyrical skill, then I do get chills. But many groups do these soulless catchy tunes with wathever trendy and swallow lyrics - I can't feel anything about those. On another note, if someone writes down something catchy but full of their own vibes, I do get excited... It's difficult, but still, I do enjoy songs better where singers at least take part in the progress and try to connect to their art. I dropped groups for just being all around products.

    Anyway, I try to not differenciate and I hope I never catch myself to outright hate on any kind of not self-producing idol, but I do think it has to be respected if someone is capable of self-producing with good results, cause that is a pinnacle of art: being able to do, both make and perform art. It is more than being able just do one or the other. Must not to shame, but do give respect!

    (And a little note about this: I for one like Ive's Eleven but was never crazy about the lyrics because it makes no sense at all, too vague and lacks real narrative, but when I found out the original lyrics! I was mindblown. I had such a wow moment!)

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  • Also there is a different between in-house producers and those who sell their songs to various artists. In-house producers create music that fits the Artist they are working with.

    This is an important point that people never mention on this blessed forum. An in-house team is not that different from self-producing performers IMHO, and are miles better than buying beats on the market place. Think of like, Elton John who never wrote lyrics but had Bernie Taupin for that. Taylor Swift and Jack Antonoff, BTS and PDogg/SlowRabbit, BP and Teddy - these forged artist-producer relationships make for much better results IMO


    and in the case of non self-producing idols, this doesn;t make me look down on the idol, it just makes me appreciate the producers more. They're real creatives too and they are trying to express themselves in their role just as much as the singers

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  • Also I'll say that genre plays a huge role in personal songs... for instance in country western music many songs are written to tell a fictional story.


    Reba McEntire is one of the most successful and beloved country singers out there and almost all of her biggest songs tell narrative fictional stories.

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    Garth Brooks doesn't have any of his stuff on streaming, but he's also an amazing narrative songwriter. The Beaches of Cheyenne and The Thunder Rolls are two of his best and while he wrote both of those songs, neither are based in reality.

  • Hmm, there’s is an obsession in the West, mostly stemming from rock music, about self-producing or self-written songs somehow being superior. I don’t understand that thinking. Songwriting and producing is a job and a skill set and I‘m not going to downplay that in preference of an idol or artist. When I think about legendary songs from Motown or Capitol, they are often songwriter’s songs, not necessarily artists or hell, even sometimes artists for writing other artists. Taylor Swift’s “We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together” does not magically become a better song than Beyoncé’s “Halo” or Rihanna’s “Take A Bow” or pick an amazing Motown song like “Neither One of Us” just because she is an artist who wrote the song.


    That’s not to say that artists cannot be creators of powerful and emotional music, but I don’t think you have to downplay one to uplift the other.


    I also think this diminishes the power of the artist’s interpretation of a song. Aretha Franklin’s empowering and legendary feminist anthem “Respect” was written by…a man. (A legendary artist himself - Otis Redding).


    But the point here is that Aretha infused her own experiences and perspectives into the song, even if she didn’t write it, so the idea that a song is somehow less personal because the artist didn’t write it does not give the artist any credit for their interpretation. I think of this often when I hear this argument because I have a deep love for old soul singers interpreting Beatles songs. I’m often rather lukewarm on Beatles songs performed by the Beatles, but when I heard other artist interpret them with their own personal feelings and experiences, they became very stunning and emotional to me.


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    (This is actually a disco artist with an amazing voice)

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    The irony, of course, is that every group on this list has songs with other songwriters on it - some as many as four or five. Even the groups I think are most actively involved and would definitely consider self-producing like GIDLE and SKZ have at least one other songwriter on their songs, which returns us to the original point that songwriting is a job for a reason and how songwriters play a hugely important role and should not be diminished.

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  • This is an important point that people never mention on this blessed forum. An in-house team is not that different from self-producing performers IMHO, and are miles better than buying beats on the market place. Think of like, Elton John who never wrote lyrics but had Bernie Taupin for that. Taylor Swift and Jack Antonoff, BTS and PDogg/SlowRabbit, BP and Teddy - these forged artist-producer relationships make for much better results IMO


    and in the case of non self-producing idols, this doesn;t make me look down on the idol, it just makes me appreciate the producers more. They're real creatives too and they are trying to express themselves in their role just as much as the singers

    I sort of disagree. Having a creative director who cohesively tailors music to the group from various music sources is much better than having one in-house producer in which case multiple groups in a company start feeling the same with no individuality. It all depends on how you look at it I guess.

  • The irony, of course, is that every group on this list has songs with other songwriters on it - some as many as four or five. Even the groups I think are most actively involved and would definitely consider self-producing like GIDLE and SKZ have at least one other songwriter on their songs, which returns us to the original point that songwriting is a job for a reason and how songwriters play a hugely important role and should not be diminished.

    Which songs from (G)I-DLE are you talking about? All their most listened-to songs, title tracks and My Bag, were solely credited to Soyeon as the songwriter. There's only one song produced by Soyeon that has a co-songwriter in the credits and it's a b-side.

  • in terms of making the song more personal in blackpink's case they have been vocal about always giving input to the creative process. One time Jisoo mentioned that when they get a song they made changes it never stays original and they start giving opinions and modifications to make it more their own aside for getting some writing credits (love sick girls, yeah yeah and Rosé's solo)


    I think once they renew they are gonna be able to be more involved so far it's has been limited unfortunately.


    also there really isn't a real self produced group in the sense of the word the closest it's G idle imo

  • Which songs from (G)I-DLE are you talking about? All their most listened-to songs, title tracks and My Bag, were solely credited to Soyeon as the songwriter. There's only one song produced by Soyeon that has a co-songwriter in the credits and it's a b-side.

    Someone needs to tell Spotify and Cube then. These are the songs on I Never Die.



    Tomboy

    5DE22473-C96C-4330-AF31-58C0C4D58266.jpeg


    Never Stop Me

    E2C1D7BF-D3C8-4ECD-9E8A-40936B1FD947.jpeg



    Villain Dies

    C8F5202F-43B5-4E06-8890-48751B8851A6.jpeg


    Already

    223F1920-7FE7-4D43-AB62-1CCC1B2F611F.jpeg


    Escape

    A9BF3D86-B551-4A74-B8E5-1CD706A15696.jpeg



    Polaroid

    5250DBB7-3F87-48F2-A364-7977B09D9D9F.jpeg


    Liar

    98FFD9DF-908D-44BE-8666-3CFC9405B4B5.jpeg


    My bag

    7F37007C-967F-4A65-BC2F-2693FF9E9FB9.jpeg


    Sorry i posted from my phone so this is a bit messy.

    EDIT: Unless you're saying that she has the sole credits for the lyrics? I'm taking songwriter to include lyrics, composing and arranging. Nonetheless, if you also still need someone to compose and arrange on your song, you are utilizing other songwriters and should be noted.

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