Anyone else feel like f(x) would've been huge if they debuted today?

It's true when they say that a lot of true talents aren't appreciated in their own era, because while f(x) still had a very successful run, they never really got as massive as their talents and music warranted.

If you ask me, they were way, way ahead of their time during 2nd generation, when the public couldn't appreciate their concepts and music as much as they would be today.

Now I know there would be a weird timeline paradox, since MHJ couldn't be at SM serving as f(x)'s creative director AND be CEO at ADOR managing NewJeans...but what if f(x) debuted under ADOR

That silly hypothetical aside, till this day, there hasn't been a group as unique or quirky or sonically brilliant as f(x), and I think they would be battling for top girl group status if they debuted today

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

Honestly f(x) benefitted the most from being a 2nd gen group, they just needed better management

Quote from QueenMaknae27

They have good music but really sucky management. And they also have krystal.

An f(x) ran by ador? Goodness!

Exactly! Imagine f(x) under ADOR? Provided their music and creative direction would be the same, since MHJ would be calling the shots, they'd be an unstoppable force.

Quote from ellenote

They'd stand no chance against New jeans

They wouldn't have to. Both groups could thrive at the same time with their completely different sounds and concepts.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

If MHJ was running things back then, they'd be A tier at least

But I fully believe f(x) would not have survived 4th or 5th gen.

Why?

Quote from nana18

Why do you guys like to downplay F(x)’s popularity ? They were very much loved and popular at their prime even Victoria was very popular in Korea as a foreigner idol, they had good sales for their time a big fandom and a good amount of awards.

Why do you think this thread is downplaying f(x)? I'm as close as a person can get to being a MeU without actually being one, but it's just facts that, even as popular as they were, they could've been MORE popular if SM pushed them like a top tier group.

Quote from Popper-of-Ks

They wouldn't be big today unless they made very different music. You say people couldn't appreciate their music, but their music is VERY 2nd gen. Very quirky & experimental in ways current groups aren't. So if they didn't make it big back then, I don't think they ever do.

They have arguably the best discography in K-Pop, and their best albums don't sound ANYTHING like what other groups were putting out during second generation. That's why their albums have aged like a fine wine and Pink Tape continues to top most all-time rankings I could find from any respected publication or critic.

I don't see how their music is any more over the top than "my boob and booty soft", "I'm a baddie b-b-baddie" or "unforgiven I'm a villain".

Come on now

Quote from fortuna

f(x) was treated like a side project and im still bitter about it today

debuted in 2009 and got their first solo concert in 2016 after a member left

and if I grab whoever was responsible for this tragedy...

Exactly. SM gave C tier treatment to a S tier quality group that capped out at right around A tier because their company didn't appreciate the diamond they had in their possession.

They obviously suffered somewhat from debuting right at the peak of SNSD, but f(x) getting paid dust and crumbs by SM is borderline sabotage

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

First half of their discography is very dated (but not as bad as 2ne1 because they avoided the autotune)

Luna and Amber would have gotten way fewer opportunities than they were allowed back then.

There's way less tolerance now for "attitudinal" female idols than before, so Krystal would have been crucified even more than she already was

The sentiment towards Chinese idols is worse (in large part because of Victoria but still) so Vic would have had less opportunities and would have rightfully run to China sooner

And neither Krystal nor Sulli would have been able to keep up with the schedules now

Eh, I respectfully disagree. Why would Luna and Amber get less opportunities today compared to second generation? Companies are a lot less shy about letting members have solo promotions compared to second generation. The restraints on that lifted during third generation even.

And it's not like Krystal had a bad attitude ever; she was just an ice queen. It's not like she went around disrespecting her seniors and showing zero appreciation for her fans.

And why would Victoria not succeed whole we're in a generation where NingNing, Shuhua and Yuqi are thriving?

If anything, the work life balance was WAY worse during second generation than it is during 4th.

Quote from Popper-of-Ks

I didn't say their music was over the top, but it wasn't people's cup of tea at a time where it did in fact follow the same trends as some of their contemporaries, so it's not going to be people's cup of tea now. You think it's aged well. I disagree. It still sounds very 2nd gen to me.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

From Pink Tape on, f(x) was sonically brilliant and different from their contemporaries, and there hasn't been anyone to bring that sound back to K-Pop since in my eyes.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

We are in a purely visual, deeply oversaturated generation where the main vocal role is undervalued and idols that dont fit the mold or arent traditional are ripped to shreds whereas they used to just be ignored. Nobody now would invite Amber on highly-coveted popular variety shows like Real Men, let alone give her a show of her own to host. Even when 2nd gen was far more supportive of good singers, Luna didn't really get anywhere either.

I think an incredible vocal like Luna would actually make f(x) stand out even more today, where people complain about mediocre vocals and rampant lipsync. It's all speculative, but that's just how I feel. And why wouldn't Amber be invited to variety shows? I feel like there isn't really a strong basis for that assumption. It's not like f(x) would debut from a nugu company. Basically, as long as the group is popular, which f(x) would be, and from a major label, which f(x) would be, they'll get opportunities to go on all the variety shows.

I feel like today's K-Pop is a lot more diverse than it was during second generation, and the concepts are less boxed in than they used to be (sometimes literally if we're talking the MVs from 2nd gen compared to now LOL). I think Amber would be celebrated.

Moonbyul doesn't fit any traditional idol mold, with tremendous tomboyish charm like Amber had, and she has been able to thrive and has the largest individual fandom of the Mamamoo members, and that was during third generation (and she'll be releasing her first full album this month). I just don't see the conflict.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

Except she did that. A lot. And got called out for it. A lot. She's matured greatly but Krystal was pretty much the definition of a stuck up teenager when she debuted, with a lack of media training on top.

Look at how Wonyoung gets berated for being calm during other people performances or when they speak and then imagine her sighing, rolling her eyes, picking at her nails, looking visibly bored or pissed off and not ever hiding that she didn't want to be there. And then add staff calling her out for being rude (not Irene level just rude) and her talking down to instructors on TV. It had nothing to do with being an "ice princess" because the original one never acted like that

There would protest trucks lining the street every week

Valid, but there is also a large segment of K-Pop fans who want idols, especially female idols, to be authentic, stop trying hard to look pretty for the cameras and maintain that "boss bitch" energy today too. I feel like this could go either way personally.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

*thriving as members of popular groups

Chinese idols do not have even a fraction of the gp recognition that the 2nd gen ones did (which is also sqaurely to blame on 2nd gen C-idols too)

Cao Lu, Fei and Victoria were genuinely popular with the public and had no issue getting cfs, variety gigs or casted on their shows. They made their own money away from their groups, sometimes outearning them altogether. NingNing and Yuqi don't anything in korea that isn't tied with their groups name

f(x) would be a popular group, so what's the issue with the comparison? Victoria herself wasn't super successful in Korea either. I still don't see how she would have no success whatsoever, when NingNing and Yuqi have no issues. Aren't they following the blueprint Victoria herself laid out?

As for the conversation about quality of life, while it's still absolutely a grind today, I still think companies are a little less careless about managing the health and well being of their idols. At the very least, there is just more public awareness and advocacy than there used to be, especially with former idols like Hani (EXID) speaking out on it regularly.

If f(x) debuted under ADOR like my hypothetical, I don't think Min Heejin would work them to the bone like SM did to all their groups during 2nd generation. Who knows? As demanding as touring is, that's also when artists feel the deepest connection to their fans and have the most fun. Hard to say how that would go for f(x), if they actually got to do some touring like present day idols.

Quote from David33

My long answer would've been something like what Daisy said. We saw the exact same thing with MAMAMOO. Probably the best vocal group in Korea of all-time, but most people looked down on them, because they didn't fit in the typical traditional, cute, sexy and other meaningless standards.

I think that's an overstatement. Mamamoo was never looked down upon by the general public. In fact, it was because they were so talented that Koreans coined the phrase "BeLisMaMoo", Believe and Listen to Mamamoo. Their vocal talent, charisma and performance skills are exactly what set them apart from their peers, and getting the opportunity to showcase that on a program like Immortal Song 2 is what catapulted their name and brand into the stratosphere.

Being atypical worked wonders for Mamamoo, and while they didn't get popular using the traditional methods, they got extremely popular by finding their own niche and doing it better than any girl group has ever done it, bar none.

It didn't come without its challenges obviously, and they did have to deal with ignorant haters from time to time, but all girl groups are subjected to that. Even NewJeans and IVE have to in today's era.

I think f(x) is also one of those atypical girl groups, with phenomenal music, and a creative direction that makes them stand out from their peers, even by today's standards. There isn't a single active group today that gives me that f(x) vibe or releases music similar to theirs. I think that would be a competitive edge in a landscape where oversaturation and trend chasing are endemic.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

Maybe I've been going around too much instead outright saying: there's no tolerance for "ugly" , "unfeminine" bodied, "fat" idols anymore regardless of talent. Groups in 2nd gen were supposed have a visual, groups now need to be fully visual groups and scrutiny is more intense.

Jihyo,, Liz, Wendy, Lily etc fit the visual standards far more than Luna did and still are the least popular, most ignored or have a chunk of kfans that straight up want them out of their groups.

And Moonbyul wearing suits is a bit of a laughable comparison to Amber lol

I'm honestly curious what success you think they have in korea

I never said anything about suits? You think I would reduce Moonbyul's personality, appeal and aesthetics to "she wears suits"? That's a little out of pocket, don't you think? I'm referring not just to the way Moonbyul dresses, but the way she carries herself, her "greasiness", and her preference for performance styles that are traditionally seen as more masculine. I promise you Moonbyul doesn't have a massive LGBTQ fanbase just because she wears suits. Speaking of, Moonbyul has even openly supported LGBTQ fans on multiple occasions, and she hasn't been canceled.

I decided to lead with this, because I don't see why Amber having a tomboy image or not being a "visual" would stop her from getting opportunities as a member of a really popular group from a big company.

As for Luna, I think she's gorgeous. I would certainly never dream of describing her as "ugly", even if beauty standards are largely cultural and subjective.

It's not like she's a visual hole. She'd be just fine in this era. One of the most popular idols of this generation doesn't fit the traditional Korean beauty standards at all, while also blowing away people with her talent and personality. You know who I'm talking about. She just released a song last year about loving her body.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

I'm honestly curious what success you think they have in korea

They seem popular enough to get brand deals and are generally well liked by everyone. That's good enough for a Chinese idol.

I never said Victoria would be super successful; I wondered why you thought she would struggle any more than Yuqi or Shuhua or NingNing.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

they aren't tho

Was the topic of conversation not about how f(x) would fare as a group in today's era?

And was this not what you said?

"The sentiment towards Chinese idols is worse (in large part because of Victoria but still) so Vic would have had less opportunities and would have rightfully run to China sooner"

My counter to that is that NingNing being in aespa, and Yuqi/Shuhua being in (G)I-DLE, didn't stop the groups from ascending and becoming two of the biggest girl groups today, so why would Victoria and f(x) be any more disadvantaged? With NingNing and aespa, we even have an example of a hoobae group from the same company.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

This optimistic to a level of trying not to get it tbh

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here, but you can just agree to disagree. I'm not forcing you to see things from my perspective, so why do you feel the need to accuse me of blind optimism and make a conspicuous implication about my comprehension skills?

I know better than probably anyone in this thread what idols who don't fit traditional beauty standards or the prototypical idol mold have to go through. I've been a MooMoo for a literal decade.

It's not optimism that I draw from but instead the experience of seeing idols overcome those barriers even in a generation that is supposedly all about visuals.

My not thinking Luna is ugly being spun as blind optimism is asinine.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

I've been talking about solo opportunities, particular domestic Korean ones.

But I'll somewhat concede because I double checked and didn't realize Yuqi was still getting hosting gigs in Korea. Still not as many opportunities as pre-Thaad

It's just that from my viewpoint, Mamamoo is more of an exception and a lot of factors that overcame that hurdle (variety skills, unique fanbase, confidence and group cohesion) dont really apply to most girl group members and certainly not Luna. There's just too many idols I've seen beaten down or even forced out of their groups to ignore that factor. I'm just saying it was already hard for her then and it's much, much harder now

Yeah, the plot got a little twisted mid convos. I don't know enough about the individual brands of the Chinese idols to speak with any confidence about how many individual brands each has secured. I just don't think Victoria would be any less privileged than the Chinese idols today.

As for the Mamamoo comparison, I see f(x) as a girl group that broke away from the traditional mold just like Mamamoo.

If someone asked me for a list of girl groups that went against the grain and had distinct, unique qualities, my list would literally start with:

Mamamoo

f(x)

and then probably Dreamcatcher.

I think that would be a tremendous factor in today's generation, where distinguishing yourself from the crowd is more important than it's ever been.

Quote from David33

Sure, but the public didn't really like them first, until they show up on Immortal Songs, and they still hate Hwasa for this day, and the others too. They're just typical trolls online, but still, they were (and still are) the loud minority. I'm sure you know how many years they fought with the industry, too. I mean, HIP came out in 2019, 5 years after their debut, but people still kept criticizing them. Most people knew that they're talented, but as human beings, or Idols, I don't think that everyone loved them. MMM members protected each other, but I didn't felt that with f(x).

As musicians, f(x) would stand out for sure, they did it in their own time too, but I don't think the public and average Kpop fans would love them today more than they loved them back in the day. People don't change.

I honestly feel sorry for the new generation, because they're MUCH younger now. I already saw videos on Insta where they said: "Kill yourself!" to Hyein, I think, or one of the NewJeans member. These so called Kpop "fans" are much worse than in the 2nd gen. They have too many platforms to be toxic, and basically no one protects the Idols. If they don't have a support system and not strong enough mentally, because they're only teens, they will either leave the group or do something worse. That's the main reason, I think f(x) wouldn't have a better chance now. Maybe with a better support system.

It's not that the public didn't like them; they just didn't know about them. Mamamoo wasn't nearly popular enough to have a lot of haters when they first got started. As usual, it wasn't until their huge surge in popularity that people on the outside started looking for cracks in their armor.

But they have had an image as the "talentdols" and "beagles" for years and years. The public loved them not just for their talents but for her approachable and authentic they were as female idols. In 2016, their adlib for their first chart topping hit, You're the Best, was to have a photo time at the bridge where 3 members made pretty faces and one member made a meme/ugly face. No girl group but Mamamoo would dare to do that

But going back to f(x), I mean, I can't really debate the relative mental toughness of individual idols. We can't get inside their heads nor can we truly empathize, as I doubt any of us have gone through anything close to what idols experience day to day. So I'm not going to speculate on how f(x) would hold up mentally today.