What is stopping kpop groups from gaining mass appeal??

1st Official Post

    What do you think stops kpop groups from having mass appeal like BTS? And please, spare me the "they are the best" responses, lets be real for a second here. They knew what to do at the right time and had a great marketing campaign that propelled them to the global market, but they shared/share a lot of similarities with other groups, from image to music, kpop in general works in homogeneity.

    I know that luck plays a vital part in every success story, but kpop has such a constant output of content that I find it strange that no other group has managed to raise to the same heights. So what you guys think, will we ever get a BTS rival in numbers? What is stopping the general world public from following other groups?


    Edit: Look, after reading all these responses I have to say, a lot of you have a serious case of "my child is the only one that is special" and are not able to consume things and still be able to see it critically.


    1. I used BTS as a comparison because they are the exception, they not only had many number one songs in one of the biggest charts, Hot 100, but in many others globally. And that is not a one hit wonder scenario. What some of you clearly don't understand is that for any artist to gain and maintain that kind of success a lot of marketing effort is put in. Collaborations, appearances, events, merchandise, all of that is carefully prepared and thought out. And that is not a shot at your fave! BTS and Big Hit clearly were smart enough to capitalize on the opportunities and excel at them.


    2. Now, what some of you claim to be staples of BTS and therefore the reason for their success are not exclusive to them.

    2.1 Writing your own material. A lot of groups like SEVENTEEN, Winner, iKON, and many others have various members involved from writing to producing their songs.

    2.2 Philanthropy. It's also something very common for different artists to support a wide range of causes. And BTS can be vocal and donate so much now because of their success, that makes them able to have more freedom in their actions, something that was not always from their inception.

    2.3 Change in musical genres. That's basically the majority of kpop groups. Every comeback is used to test new concepts and sounds.

    2.4 Deep lyrics. BigBang, Day6, Sunmi, IU, TXT and even the new EPEX, have had works that deal with different, serious subjects.


    The point is, all of these artist I mentioned and many others had the potential to become huge globally, and by that, I mean appeal to people that are not usually plugged into the kpop genre. But even now with the success of BTS, the mainstream has not shown the same amount of interest in any other groups.

    Now, what I think BTS managed to do it differently, which other groups don't seem to be able to recreate, is foster a fan base truly devoted to them and in most cases, only them! Which helps propel their brand into the view of the mainstream.

    Since you believe bts are where they are all because of marketing, timing and luck only, it should not be hard to believe why no one's at their level. You can't create luck nor the perfect timing. Every popular group is marketed right so there's that.

    So every other group is unlucky and has bad timing.

    I hope dumb kpop fans stop with this "marketing campaign" excuse. They started promoting in US after WINGS got #25 on BB200. Till then the highest ranking kpop album was #95. WINGS was also the first ever kpop album to spend 2 weeks on BB200. Before that no literally no other kpop album had spent more than a week on BB200. 'Spring Day' had charted on BB Bubbling Under, first ever kpop song to do so. Even since then till now only Blackpink and SuperM have charted on that. This "marketing" started only because they had DEMAND. All these kpop groups who have promoted before BTS and after BTS still don't have as much demand for them that BTS had in 2017 but they're still doing "marketing". So stop with this "marketing" bs. Marketing and promotion only helps if there is demand. BTS had demand even before they started promoting.

    BTS has been the top for a long time. Some new people come in and they explore one group and stop there.


    And then theres this bias thinking that everyone else is not gonna be better than the group you currently stan. You cannot not be bias when you are a KPOP group fan. Theres gonna be at least a slight bias.


    And 1 more thing, its a must in KPOP nowadays. Achievements. You dont have that and people wont even look at you. What else can they brag about if theres none?


    Warning: Everything I said are said jokingly. Take them as such. :starec:

    Quote from onlyfacts

    I hope dumb kpop fans stop with this "marketing campaign" excuse. They started promoting in US after WINGS got #25 on BB200. Till then the highest ranking kpop album was #95. WINGS was also the first ever kpop album to spend 2 weeks on BB200. Before that no literally no other kpop album had spent more than a week on BB200. 'Spring Day' had charted on BB Bubbling Under, first ever kpop song to do so. Even since then till now only Blackpink and SuperM have charted on that. This "marketing" started only because they had DEMAND. All these kpop groups who have promoted before BTS and after BTS still don't have as much demand for them that BTS had in 2017 but they're still doing "marketing". So stop with this "marketing" bs. Marketing and promotion only helps if there is demand. BTS had demand even before they started promoting.

    I don't think OP meant appeal from the Western GP. They meant appeal from the Korean GP.

    I think this is the best / right answer

    So nothing is setting BTS apart from the rest of the groups according to you ? New fans keep showing up only because they are jumping on the success bandwagon ? A lot of ARMYs do check others groups, it's just not what they are looking for.



    The reason why others groups don't succeed like BTS is because their stans just like OP convinced themselves that it's all about marketing and nothing else. It's easier to accept BTS success that way.


    Here the reasons why BTS became so successful according to me :


    BTS members are really relatable and are all boys next door. ARMY love their chemistry, their humour and their accessibility. They spend a lot of time interacting with theirs fans.

    . The biggest of these is the artistic control they have over their music. Many of the songs are written in part or whole and produced in part or whole by them. Much of their music is unique, is not your tradtional love song and holds a lot of meaning. Many ARMY talk about how BTS' message caught their eye and brought them into the fandom.

    They deal with social/political issues in theirs songs and they are mainly talking about theirs personal struggles. That’s why their music holds a strong emotional connection with the fans. Their discography conveys a tragic yet comforting view of human existence : everything is ephemeral and never last. Happiness don’t exist only moments of joy. Yet, BTS never fail to comfort their audience and give them hope. For example in the same album, Butterfly is about the fear of loosing a loved one and Run is about the acceptance of the end of a relationship.

    BTS depict a lot of relatable struggles and share a cure at the same time. In a way, they are the cure.
    So their message is universal and for a lot of ARMY, theirs songs are our home.

    Their biggest strength is theirs performances. Even people who aren’t ARMYs say it. They never perform twice the same way. They are versatile performers, charismastic with a different charm for a lot of them and they are very energetic sometimes wild.

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    I would have thought the same if B.A.P wouldn’t have fallen so deeply after 2014. They also had everything in them and were different than the rest, but somehow it was not enough to survive in Korea, while BTS conquered the whole music world… meaning, it can’t be only that.

    I’m going to assume you are talking about Korean gp.

    Well just as someone said idols are not respected much or taken seriously. I’ve noticed the idols who are actually popular and respected especially from 2nd gen is because they take other roles including acting which boosted their careers.


    Most idols are just using it as a stepping stone for a long lasting career in the entertainment industry. So obviously in the entertainment circles they are at the bottom of the hierarchy.


    If you compare Seo Taiji and BTS popularity, there are some stark similarities. They tackled the same issues in their music and BTS draws inspiration from them. I think Seo Taiji, BTS and bigbang are the only groups the kgp have preferred calling artistes instead of idols

    Quote from Eldeweiss

    So nothing is setting BTS apart from the rest of the groups according to you ? New fans keep showing up only because they are jumping on the success bandwagon ? A lot of ARMYs do check others groups, it's just not what they are looking for.


    Thanks for this. Ngl every army I have asked about actually do end up checking out other groups. I think it’s just kpoppies who have built a bubble around themselves to not admit that sometimes people are just not interested in their faves.


    It’s funny how armys don’t even go around policing people who don’t listen to BTS lmaoo

    Quote from Korainism

    I would have thought the same if B.A.P wouldn’t have fallen so deeply after 2014. They also had everything in them and were different than the rest, but somehow it was not enough to survive in Korea, while BTS conquered the whole music world… meaning, it can’t be only that.

    B.A.P were screwed by their company whereas HYBE promoted BTS well. Everyone know that TS is terrible. And yeah B.A.P was in a good dynamic before their scandal with TS but no one know where they would be today with a good company supporting the group back then. It's the 100th episode of people using B.A.P to invalidate BTS uniqueness anyways. I am tired of it. See, I don't stan BigBang or SNSD but I can recognize their uniqueness and it factor because it exists and explains their success story.

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    To expand on my reply, a lot of people who don't like kpop likes BTS.


    Yeah, they play the idol part well enough that they will appeal to the usual kpop demographic, but the fact that they have a lot of freedom, both in their career and their music, the fact that they talk about politics or mental health, the fact that they are respected as musicians and not just idols is winning over a part of the population who don't care at all about idols in general.

    Again with this "marketing" bs. The big3 groups had way more marketing than BTS until 2018. So stop with this bs.


    What makes BTS different is that while others were singing about love, breakups and partying, BTS were singing about Korean education system, the job market, anxiety and social issues like that. Only BAP were doing the same but their company screwed them over.


    But the irony is that you first need a catchy "generic" title song about love and breakups etc in order to build a relevant fanbase who will then listen to the bsides which are true masterpieces of BTS. Boy in luv and I need you were those songs.

    Yup, achievements 👍 BTS made it look so easy..👍

    >>> 2022.06.10 <<<IMG-4283.jpg

    Quote from Afriyieau1

    Thanks for this. Ngl every army I have asked about actually do end up checking out other groups. I think it’s just kpoppies who have built a bubble around themselves to not admit that sometimes people are just not interested in their faves.


    It’s funny how armys don’t even go around policing people who don’t listen to BTS lmaoo

    I check out other groups' music from 3rd gen and 4th gen since some are touted to be national hits, but they pale in comparison to BTS, I dunno.🤷‍♀️

    >>> 2022.06.10 <<<IMG-4283.jpg

    this whole marketing I hear some people say about BTS is complete bs. I've been following them since late 2016 and they had no western promotion strategy that time. BH promoted them like every non big 3 group out there. In 2017, it was Billboard and AMA who called BTS to their award show bc of the demand. It was only after 2018 with the Fake Love performance debut in BBMAs, that they started real western promotion.


    As for Korea, I would say BTS are actually poor with their Korean promotions. Korean GP only took notice of them after their #1 on Billboard. They literally did nothing to stay relevant in Korea as they are today.


    To answer your question, BTS just has that appeal to attract different masses. They expressed their story from being high school teenagers to young adults, through their music and artistry. This makes every age group have something relate to. BTS never fears to explore different genres. Once again, this gives them a mass appeal around world, people belonging to different cultures. There's more to it but I don't want to make my post any longer.

    𝐁𝐓𝐒 ♡ 𝐁𝐥𝐚𝐜𝐤𝐩𝐢𝐧𝐤 ♡ 𝐀𝐞𝐬𝐩𝐚

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  • AllKill VIP

    Not everyone is going to be on the top, because there will always be someone at the top.


    I think the bigger picture is that for a lot of people looking at KPOP now, they only have the 'charts' to find out what are the kpop groups to look out for.


    Like just ask yourself let's say you are suddenly into Cpop, you will look out on the radio what are the top Chinese songs and then slowly branch off from there. And that is how people are checking out KPOP now, it's through charts and seeing what is popular.


    Hence this ends up with a lot of people only knowing the top popular groups who are doing well on the charts, and the other KPOP groups are not noticed. It's not a matter of whether or not other groups have the 'mass appeal', it's more of how much are the GP being exposed to. And as of now, they are only exposed to the top groups, thus KPOP in general is just BTS + BP + other top groups, rather than KPOP as a whole genre

    But isn't it backward ?


    The reason BTS is on top of the charts is because they are popular with the Korean GP, not the other way around :/ Yes it might help to stay on top, but that's basically it ? Why did they reach the top on the first place ?

    Quote from amalyas

    But isn't it backward ?


    The reason BTS is on top of the charts is because they are popular with the Korean GP, not the other way around :/ Yes it might help to stay on top, but that's basically it ? Why did they reach the top on the first place ?

    It's like a cycle. You gain appeal because of your music or talent or hype or luck, but once you get people attention then your music is guaranteed exposure because of that attention. When a song shoots to the top of a chart upon release, it's definitely because of the artist's brand name and not because of the song's quality (regardless of whether the song is good or not). Especially now that melon became dependent on ULs, this behaviour became more evident and obvious. You're guaranteed to have people check your song just because of your name and that alone will give your music more chance to be liked than artists whose names alone don't garner much attention. In contrast there are cases like Aespa where the song started very low and slow in the chart but then climbed its way to the top, that's a testament of people liking the song for itself and not just checking it out because they like or no Aespa. Aespa might continue to become like BTS or BP or Bigbang and 2NE1 during their time where people buy their music upon release and then decide whether they like them or not (evident in longevity) or become more like Red Velvet or EXO where the name of the group alone won't be enough and it will always depend on the song.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from amalyas

    But isn't it backward ?


    The reason BTS is on top of the charts is because they are popular with the Korean GP, not the other way around :/ Yes it might help to stay on top, but that's basically it ? Why did they reach the top on the first place ?

    Ok if we really want to give a real proper answer, we need to collect data and many other variables to determine the correlation between success across various groups.


    For example, why do some house prices in area A is higher (on top) compared to area B - Z? We need the price of the houses (success measure of KPOP groups), and many other variables such as distance to public transport/noise/amenities/crime rate of area etc.


    Same if we really want a real like a real answer not just an "opinion based" answer, we need first have a proper indicator of success level/mass appeal level. Lets just call it A, and we can measure A via I don't know ... chart success?


    Next we need many other variables that could be correlated to A. For example

    • Company size? Company funding?
    • Number of members? (yes this may be a determining factor we wouldn't know)
    • Number of albums? How many songs?
    • % of which songs are composed/written by members?
    • Year of which groups debut?
    • Marketing? (since it was brought up in one of the replies)
    • Looks of the members (somehow hard to measure)
    • xxxxxx

    Blah blah blah MANY MANY other factors that could be a determinant of A. There could be hundreds of these factors. And all these must somehow be measurable so that we can do a real analysis of it.


    Once we have these data, we can do a regression analysis to determine which one of those coefficient leads to A aka your success/mass appeal, and by how much.


    :pepelove2::pepelove2::pepelove2:


    This is how, we try to come up with something to determine "what is stopping" kpop groups from gaining mass appeal, by knowing what are the determinants that cause or could lead to it in the first place. Not just opinion based statements.


    Everyone could just come up with opinions on why they think they rose, but ultimately they are all just opinions. Not just for BTS or BP or whatever top group, but every single group in KPOP.


    Sorry .... inner nerd came out.

    If you ask me who didn't even know something called kpop exist in this world but found BTS & fall in love with their music.

    One small example. Survey has been done every year which BTS song is Army's favourite. Every year "Spring Day" wins the poll as a certified queen.

    But Spring Day is not the song that brought GP's attention to BTS, not top on streaming, sales, not a globally successful song, didn't send BTS to west.

    But, It is the song that connect GP to BTS & made them Army in most case. Again "Deep Lyrics"


    Deep lyrics, Healing tendency,The guts to portray sensitive issues, telling their life story Through their MUSIC. So, In conclusion, Because, BTS is the best.


    No matter what the day is, after discovering BTS there was not a single day in my life when I Didn't hear Spring Day at least for once.

    It is not like I didn't hear other groups song but those groups discovery failed to connect me with them. It is my case. May be this thing happens to other also.

    Some posters here seem to have a problem with others pointing out the importance of marketing and luck, but those are real things and there's no shame in admitting them and having them at all.

    There are dozens of idol groups that debut every year, most of them go unnoticed. People don't even check their music out to begin with, so it's wholly unfair to use their performance in the charts to decide upon the quality of their music and whether they have mass appeal or not. Just let me ask you all a question, do you think BTS songs that didn't do well in the charts before they became popular were bad songs? Is that why they were ignored? Were BTS untalented and lacking in stage presence and mass appeal then? I highly doubt many of you would say yes, then why not extend the same courtesy to others?


    A group needs both a strong foundation (talent and music) and marketing (and luck) to hit the jackpot. You could be the sharpest tool in the box and get paid dust simply because no one is checking on you, like you could have the best marketing plan around but still not gain people's favor simply because they don't like the content under all the glitter of marketing.


    Benefiting from international fame is also a real thing. Look at Gangnam Style for example, it was very controversial and received lots of backlash when it was released, because of its satirical lyrics that mocked certain aspects of Korean society. But then after it gain international fame, it reflected back on its Korean reception and suddenly it topped the charts and ended up the number 1 song of the year (call it hypocrisy if you might, but it's what it's). This is not a bad thing, it's the opposite so I don't understand why people hate to see it get pointed out.


    So, yep, in the midst of the current state of ridiculous oversaturation of kpop, you need any and every opportunity and bit of luck you can get to have people check your music and decide whether they like it or not. Look at Gfriend, they flopped up until that incident where Yuju kept slipping and falling down on stage and went viral, people gave them a chance out of pity and ended up liking their music. Exid and Brave Girls went viral because of strategically taken fancams and ended up having major hits after previously flopping for years.

    So, it's really not about groups at the top being automatically and necessarily better or nugus being unworthy. It's all about exposure and visibility. People can not like something they can't even see.

    I definitely agree that 'because they are talented' or 'because they are hard-working' is an insufficient answer anyway. Talent and hard work are absolutely necessary in this industry, but they are definitely not enough to give someone BTS' career.


    If there was a foolproof recipe to success and popularity, it would be incredibly easy. As much as Hollywood's propaganda is trying to convince us otherwise, believing in your dreams and working hard do not mean that you will end up on top of the world.

    And regarding marketing Marketing bullshit..

    Marketing Bullshit that many kpop stans have been barking to claim as the excuse of the group they stan "Not being on top" is nonsense. "Your fav went to promote in USA on the power of the money of their company. Money run out, they got door shut on their face, got out from west because they had no impact on the mass of west. Your fav's company spent huge money on them on west, still failed to gain visibility. ;(. It is not that their target was not West. It is West that is not interested in your fav" Better swallow the truth.


    BTS went to USA after DNA. The song which was huge on USA. Unlike those groups who was sent bcs of the money of their company & west didn't even know their existence.😂.

    West pays huge millions to BTS to get a single glimpse of BTS on their shows. And your fav's company gives millions to west to get their groups on west's shows. The difference!!! Lmao.


    If you guys want to pacify yourself that BTS is on top bcs of only promption, it is ok if hallucination gives you peace of mind why your fav failed.

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  • AllKill VIP

    It's not directed at BTS in case people try to spin it and say that I hate them.


    But the general analogy/example I like to use is, was Brave Girl's "Rollin" a shit tier song in 2017, and suddenly it miraculously become a god tier song in 2021? Like in this 4 years the quality of the song magically increase 100x that it became the GG song with most PAKs?


    If people can answer me yes then I have nothing to say

    Quote from amalyas

    I definitely agree that 'because they are talented' or 'because they are hard-working' is an insufficient answer anyway. Talent and hard work are absolutely necessary in this industry, but they are definitely not enough to give someone BTS' career.


    If there was a foolproof recipe to success and popularity, it would be incredibly easy. As much as Hollywood's propaganda is trying to convince us otherwise, believing in your dreams and working hard do not mean that you will end up on top of the world.


    Quote from icyruios

    It's not directed at BTS in case people try to spin it and say that I hate them.


    But the general analogy/example I like to use is, was Brave Girl's "Rollin" a shit tier song in 2017, and suddenly it miraculously become a god tier song in 2021? Like in this 4 years the quality of the song magically increase 100x that it became the GG song with most PAKs?


    If people can answer me yes then I have nothing to say

    The importance of marketing and branding is very evident even in our daily lives. As long as I can afford it financially then I'm not going to buy my electronics or clothes or even groceries from obscure brands with unknown names and whose products I haven't tired before or weren't at least highly regarded by others. You simply don't consume things you don't even know they exist to begin with.

    But like amalyas pointed out, the cycle has got to start somewhere, popular brands are popular for a reason, they earned their success and popularity one way or another, they earned the privilege of visibility they now have over others. But once they have that privilege, the power of the brand and the quality of the product become so entangled together that you can no longer tell which is selling exactly or how big a percentage each aspect is playing in selling the product. That's why when talking about things like quality and mass appeal of entities that are at opposite ends of the spectrum of brand name, we should never speak in absolute terms.

    One of my favourite personality in this world, "Sir A. P. J. Abdul.Kalam" said..

    SAVE_20201223_025558.jpeg


    Thankfully, BTS didn't take rest after their victory over silver spooning industry, keep working with their blood, sweat & tears till now.

    But still lips of stans of failure saying it is promotion & luck. ok. If hallucination keeps your mind in rest & forget the pain. Sorry to see, your fav couldn't earn visibility & brand name inspite their company spending millions on their promotion & they got get lost from west. ;(


    I realised, I stan Hard working people in all fields who can provide me life lessons, connectivity & rose to success on their own not by silver spooning.

    Another reason to stan BTS. :pepelove2:

    Beyond bts I would have said that kpop can't go further now because of rooted misogyny and its various consequences as well as xenophonia/unwillingness to listen to songs in other languages, especially in the US


    But as for why aren't other groups catching up to BTS, we'll they aren't BTS. They have a one of a kind story, if mo'eh and marketing can't bring you there, it's perhaps because it wasn't just that that pushed them to the top

    I'm not able to answer this question but from someone who got into BTS recently, he said that BTS was very relatable to him all their struggles and people being against them early in their career made him want to root for them


    and after that came the music and their skills - that's what he said so it might have some truth to it bc most armys have a special connection with BTS.


    so it might be reliability it definitely isn't marketing.

  • AllKill VIP


    This pattern doesn't apply to BTS or at least not completely. They never had one breakthrough moment but a steady rise to the top and several breakthrough moments with various audiences in different places. They are still growing in their eighth year which is very unusual for a musical act so they might be others reasons than marketing and their current exposure to explain their success. A lot of artists went to the top in an impressive way but they also quickly faded away soon after. Its maybe too early to tell but for now BTs are showing great signs of longevity.


    I am not denying the fact that marketing and luck played a rule in their success but people overexaggerate it when it's about BTS. I am a long time ARMY and I am tired of people saying that it's all the "BTS mythos", "The BTS sobbing strategy to manipulate their fans". It's ridiculous after a while. Others Kpop groups are marketed too.

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