achivements and stats discussion threads on akp these days in a nutshell

    which is why I've always said in literally every charting comparison thread


    metrics, data, weighting blah blah blah


    if you want to use numbers and charting and sales and touring and merch and cfs to support your group's achievements - that's great but state the reasons for using certain metrics and data over others...


    instead of starting with my group is no. 1 because of A and B and C etc etc

    state I think A and B and C are determinative of what makes a groups successful and then state how one's fav hit A and B and C (or didn't)

    I'm not around enough to know if it's true but goddammit that's one funny meme

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    LOL 1

    Lmao. Not you calling that low effort, obvious bait thread a chart discussion. Please. There's only one thread on AKP where civilized chart discussions happen and that's the Digital thread and none of us go there let alone start fights. If you're so pressed about us bringing touring then don't make threads or posts attacking Twice cuz we will obviously retaliate then. It's simple.

    Where's the metric, data and weighting supporting your comment ;judgingpepe:

    Quote from YamaChwan

    Funny how little touring mattered, relative to other measurements of success, circa 2016 through 2018.


    I wonder what changed.

    Because there was nothing to talk about before that. No group was pulling any significant tour numbers until after covid.


    Just like how people used to talk about YouTube views 2016-2018 and nobody talks about it now.


    Just like how Melon charting also matter less as groups start to shift focus outside of Korea. Though it's AKPs favorite criteria, tell a non kpop fan about how high a song charted in Melon and nobody would even care.


    And to be fair, I I'll even list gg criteria that Twice has that doesn't matter anymore. Most music show wins, most daesang,etc because these were local achievements.


    Criteria weight changed over time as the kpop scene evolved.


    Now that kpop is more global than ever, global touring number now holds a different significance.

    people only want to talk about stats that majority and their faves are doing well. When someone excel in particular area that no one is able to compete, everyone play down on that area.


    Previously it was Youtube views, then album sales and now touring. I wonder what's next.

    Dude, meme should have a tiny bit of truth or half truth to be funny. How is this funny?


    What do NJ stans talk about besides streaming apps? Their Youtube views are whack, album sales are top gg average, lower than Twice.

    Some users around here make fun of Onces but personally I'm glad that a group such as Twice, well past their prime, deep in their ajumma days, still find a supportive crowd wherever they go. It's quite formidable to keep drawing so many elderly people, considering all they have to go through to reach the venue, with their walking sticks and all. It warrants respect.

    Mmmm hmmmm.


    I'm calling cap on literally all of this. It sounds perfectly reasonable and innocuous enough at first glance, but a closer look with a discerning eye reveals the true reality.


    Twice was doing arena tours by 2018, with attendance numbers sharply increasing with each subsequent tour. By 2019, they already surpassed the touring numbers of any girl group in K-Pop history. Their dominant touring figures didn't happen overnight in 2022.


    "Criteria weight" shifting is a good way to frame the narrative to present as being unbiased and objective, but nobody is going to buy that. The criteria "shifts" based on whether Twice can still perform like a top group in said criteria, for Onces at least.


    Even as K-Pop began to surge in popularity in the West, when Twice was still digitally dominant, Onces wouldn't shut up about their Gaon/Circle #1s, streams, Gallup poll results and daesangs. Now that they're not competitive in literally any of those categories, suddenly and curiously, they don't matter anymore.


    Yeah, that's what we in the business call cope. We all know that Onces would be bragging about those achievements, like any other K-Pop fan, if Twice's numbers were even remotely competitive and comparable.


    Had your position simply been to acknowledge Twice is at a stage in their careers where they can just tour and be supported by the large fandom they've amassed around the world, there would be no valid counter argument to that, as it's just the truth. But the moment you start downplaying all the metrics Twice is no longer relevant in, to prop up the one category they still pull numbers in, you lose credibility.

    Quote from YamaChwan

    Twice was doing arena tours by 2018, with attendance numbers sharply increasing with each subsequent tour. By 2019, they already surpassed the touring numbers of any girl group in K-Pop history. Their dominant touring figures didn't happen overnight in 2022.

    Of course it didn't happen overnight, Nobody is arguing that people didn't tour before. That's why fans talk about it now instead of in the past, we bring it up in the present for the present. Just like nobody would bring up the number of f PAKs a song has until the song surpasses another.


    Quote

    Criteria weight" shifting is a good way to frame the narrative to present as being unbiased and objective, but nobody is going to buy that. The criteria "shifts" based on whether Twice can still perform like a top group in said criteria, for Onces at least.


    That's a strawman...whether or not Twice fall out of a metric doesn't change the fact that criterion shift happens, it has nothing to do with Twice. Again, nobody talks about Youtube views anymore (this wasn't a category that even belonged to Twice) and it used to be the highly talked about thing during the BTS vs Blackpink days.


    Quote

    Even as K-Pop began to surge in popularity in the West, when Twice was still digitally dominant, Onces wouldn't shut up about their Gaon/Circle #1s, streams, Gallup poll results and daesangs. Now that they're not competitive in literally any of those categories, suddenly and curiously, they don't matter anymore.

    The same principle applies the other way around you know. If a group doesn't hold one of the metrics, in this case touring, then sudden touring is not important but others are.


    Quote

    Yeah, that's what we in the business call cope. We all know that Onces would be bragging about those achievements, like any other K-Pop fan, if Twice's numbers were even remotely competitive and comparable.


    Every fans presents their group's strength. The only difference is I don't say anything when people talk about IVE's unique listeners, Blackpinks Spotify streams, or the number of PAKs New Jeans have. They're all just different metrics fans use to measure a group's success. But some reason if Onces choose to talk about touring numbers, it's the metric that has everyone pressed. Like I don't have an issue when you talk about how long the crane game line is for NewJeans, I don't see why Twice's touring is an issue for you or OP.


    Quote

    Had your position simply been to acknowledge Twice is at a stage in their careers where they can just tour and be supported by the large fandom they've amassed around the world, there would be no valid counter argument to that, as it's just the truth. But the moment you start downplaying all the metrics Twice is no longer relevant in, to prop up the one category they still pull numbers in, you lose credibility.


    The irony here is the single metric that is being downplayed by every other user of various fandoms here is touring. Heck, the whole purpose of the OP's message is to downplay it. You'll almost never see me in any achievement threads, there was no downplaying of the other metrics until this thread was made.


    At the end of the the day, there is no official standard metric of success, We can spend all day debating which one is most important but in the end, it's just your opinion against mine. And I have absolutely no issue with whatever metric you hold valuable, whether its Billboard duration, Spotify streams, largest first week sale.

    Now you're strawmanning me. This entire retort reads as if my position is that touring doesn't matter, and that Onces are being fools for boasting about Twice's touring power globally.


    I don't know how that's possible, when you quoted my stating that there is nothing wrong with that.


    Bragging about a metric is fine. I don't care. You've never seen me in Twice threads attacking Onces for doing that. Or any groups fans that like to brag.


    But "Twice's touring is world class and deserves recognition" is an entirely different position from "Twice's touring is world class and no other metrics of success matter", especially when those metrics stopped mattering only once Twice stopped pulling any kind of relevant numbers in them.


    As I said earlier, you can talk about industry and criteria shifts all day and night, but nobody wI'll be convinced that the people who fall into the second category wouldn't suddenly find those numbers relevant again if Twice returned to form.


    If they get a PAK with their next title track and suddenly become relevant digitally again, the same people calling those achievements irrelevant will be making thread after thread bragging about them, just like they used to when Twice did that regularly in their peak.


    If your issue is with people downplaying Twice's touring, your issue isn't with me. I've literally never done it



    I don't see it this way at all, respectfully.

    If they do, they're definitely in the minority.


    The majority of Onces doesnt exactly say other metrics don't matter, just that touring is one of the biggest and truest factors of showing success.


    Twice have had all the digital success in the world. You mentioned in your comment how Onces always used to brag about it. Why would Onces say this doesn't matter now? It doesn't make sense.


    It's just that now, Onces got a bigger thing to brag about. High digitals again would of course be great, but again, Twice been there already and did it all and then some with digitals. Nothing left to prove. All icing on a very beautiful cake going forward.


    So TLDR, of course other metrics are important, just not as important as touring power. And from what I usually see, most Onces kind of subscribe to that viewpoint also.

    It's very likely that the Onces I cross paths with are not the Onces you spend the most time around.


    But at the very least, when discussions and arguments about girl groups happen here, and sometimes on reddit, I have seen, more times than I care to recall, interactions where Onces didn't just boast about touring but also declared any other type of achievement irrelevant.


    Naturally, this question forms in my mind, and so many other people's, I'm sure: Are those achievements no longer relevant, or are they just saying that because Twice is no longer relevant enough outside of their fanbase to accomplish them?


    It's a harsh question, but it's a reality any aging group will face. My all-time favorite group has Perfect All-Kills, a bunch of #1 hit songs, and even now has the most cumulative listeners on Melon of any girl group in history, but it doesn't hurt me to admit they're no longer relevant in categories they were dominant in during third generation.


    What I'm about to quote is what we both agree on:


    "Twice been there already and did it all and then some with digitals. Nothing left to prove. All icing on a very beautiful cake going forward."


    That is my exact opinion on Mamamoo, so I won't criticize Onces who feel that way about Twice. I only take issue when they (and trust me, it isn't just Onces--another well-known fandom does this too) try to clown younger groups for not being able to tour like a near 10-year old veteran group paired with throwing shade at their achievements because suddenly only touring matters.


    Me and some Dives and Blinks fought a lot last year apparently over metrics none of us care about any more :boompepe:

    Quote from YamaChwan

    Funny how little touring mattered, relative to other measurements of success, circa 2016 through 2018.


    I wonder what changed.

    Funny how streaming didn’t matter 20 years ago. How many streams did Boa get at debut? How about Sechkies? Exactly. Why didn’t H.O.T do a stadium tour in America. Nobody talks about that

    Quote from Teudungi21

    Funny how streaming didn’t matter 20 years ago. How many streams did Boa get at debut? How about Sechkies? Exactly. Why didn’t H.O.T do a stadium tour in America. Nobody talks about that

    That's not remotely close to the gotcha moment you think it is, but considering the source, your reaction and response were both well within my expectations. Let me know if you need some more straw before throwing out your next one.

    Once’s did t clown any younger group for not matching twice touring now. It wasn’t until people started to compare twice to younger groups that people pointed out that twices seniority and touring ability still put them a step ahead. Not as a way to say that those groups should be matching it but saying that Twice has reached a level in their careers where it simply is dumb to compare them to younger groups in any metric.


    Also many Once’s, including me, have said Twice are clearly not as relevant in Korea as they used to be. That is natural to Kpop. Honestly if twice was still the top of Korea over the multitudes of new groups debuting I would be worried about the direction of Kpop as clearly it is not able to grow beyond what it already accomplished. Most once’s don’t give a fuck that new groups are more trendy and popular in Korea now. That natural. What most once’s push back against is idiots trying to downplay Twices career achievements due to the natural process of losing relevance.


    Also once’s get mad about the exaggeration that twice only has touring numbers now when they are still competitive with most 4th gen groups on Spotify and still match many groups in sales as well. Not mentioning their ability to still chart in Japan and sell decently there after nearly a decade. So again. The whole discussion is dumb as fuck and always started by people that just hate Twice and who’s point is to shit on then for losing relevance in Korea.

    Quote from YamaChwan

    That's not remotely close to the gotcha moment you think it is, but considering the source, your reaction and response were both well within my expectations. Let me know if you need some more straw before throwing out your next one.

    It wasn’t a gotcha. Your point about people not talking about touring as much back in 2016-2019 is dumb as touring wasn’t as big of a factor. Most group not named BTS were touring arenas so there was a huge difference. Now twice was starting to tour in domes in Japan and Once’s were pointing out how amazing that was. But the point is touring only became such a huge thing AFTER Covid. With BP and Twice and other groups having huge tour number unheard of previously by almost every group except BTS

    Quote from Teudungi21

    Your point about people not talking about touring as much back in 2016-2019 is dumb as touring wasn’t as big of a factor

    The issue here is touring is usually only relevant for mature groups that have build up a sustainable fan base and released a huge backlog of songs.


    But to hijack threads or creating threads boasting about Twice tour numbers and outright stating that achievements from groups that are less than 2 yrs old are fraudulent just cause they can't get the same tour numbers is just downright pity behavior.


    You don't see blinks or armies doing this, they will boast that they paved the way etc but thats it.

    Quote from Teudungi21

    It wasn’t a gotcha. Your point about people not talking about touring as much back in 2016-2019 is dumb as touring wasn’t as big of a factor. Most group not named BTS were touring arenas so there was a huge difference. Now twice was starting to tour in domes in Japan and Once’s were pointing out how amazing that was. But the point is touring only became such a huge thing AFTER Covid. With BP and Twice and other groups having huge tour number unheard of previously by almost every group except BTS

    Your dumb interpretation of my point doesn't make the point itself dumb. You can try to divert the conversation into some irrelevant tangent about what we did or didn't talk about during Twice's peak, but when you're talking to me, the focus will remain on the fact that Onces who pretend touring is all that matters are obviously and blatantly coping with the fact it's actually not all that matters but the only metric Twice can still hit numbers in.


    You know that the days of #1 hit songs, daesangs, gallup polls and incomparable total digitals are over, so the cope is to say those things don't matter anymore and have significantly reduced relevance.


    Fact is that we all know very few of you, if any, would be posting that cope nonsense if Twice still held on to their relevance like BlackPink, or hell, even Red Velvet.

    Quote from L0ok

    The issue here is touring is usually only relevant for mature groups that have build up a sustainable fan base and released a huge backlog of songs.


    But to hijack threads or creating threads boasting about Twice tour numbers and outright stating that achievements from groups that are less than 2 yrs old are fraudulent just cause they can't get the same tour numbers is just downright pity behavior.


    You don't see blinks or armies doing this, they will boast that they paved the way etc but thats it.

    you dont see once doing this either. Who does this? Dreamer? The guy who shits on Twice most of the time? What once creates threads shitting on young groups because they cant tour at Sofi stadium immediately after debut? Please present it to me outside of whatever dumb shit dreamer does.

    Quote from Teudungi21

    you dont see once doing this either. Who does this? Dreamer? The guy who shits on Twice most of the time? What once creates threads shitting on young groups because they cant tour at Sofi stadium immediately after debut? Please present it to me outside of whatever dumb shit dreamer does.

    Well the minion has a new contender called randomkpopstan, the one with the red profile pic. I've seen him/her make such a dumb thread, not sure about the hijacked threads though

    Quote from YamaChwan

    Your dumb interpretation of my point doesn't make the point itself dumb. You can try to divert the conversation into some irrelevant tangent about what we did or didn't talk about during Twice's peak, but when you're talking to me, the focus will remain on the fact that Onces who pretend touring is all that matters are obviously and blatantly coping with the fact it's actually not all that matters but the only metric Twice can still hit numbers in.


    You know that the days of #1 hit songs, daesangs, gallup polls and incomparable total digitals are over, so the cope is to say those things don't matter anymore and have significantly reduced relevance.


    Fact is that we all know very few of you, if any, would be posting that cope nonsense if Twice still held on to their relevance like BlackPink, or hell, even Red Velvet.

    you are making this shit up. Most Onces dont think touring is all that matters. Once may brag about how amazing twice can tour but I hav e not seen Once as a whole say that nothing else matters but touring. Once mention touring a lot because it is genuinely an amazing achievement and as Kpop has gone more global touring as an achievement has gained more clout. But I dont think most ones would agree with the statement that it is the only thing that matters. Daesangs, #1 hit songs, and digitals do matter. Gallup polls matter but I do think those are time and place kinds of things which give you a more at the time reading of popularity than an accurate overall reading of popularity. Twice has held onto their relevance pretty well. They are still a dominant group in the world, still have streaming numbers equal to most 4th gen groups. You are literally only talking about relevance in Korea, one market in the entire world. It is an important market but Kpop is a global genre now, not limited to Korea. Twice is as relevant across the kpop world now as most 4th gen groups. They are still able to garner huge concerts, pretty damn good streaming numbers, and huge sales 9 years into their career as most 4th and now 5th gen groups. Thats damn impressive. Its fucks like you who want to pigeon hole Twices success into just, "touring" which causes Onces to hyper focus on that shit so much.

    Quote from Water_oWl

    Well the minion has a new contender called randomkpopstan, the one with the red profile pic. I've seen him/her make such a dumb thread, not sure about the hijacked threads though

    Exactly these guys are making threads about Onces only saying touring matters when the only "Onces" who say stupid shit like that are trolls Onces at best. They just want to shit on twice and use attack "Onces" as a lame ass excuse.

    Quote from Teudungi21

    Exactly these guys are making threads about Onces only saying touring matters when the only "Onces" who say stupid shit like that are trolls Onces at best. They just want to shit on twice and use attack "Onces" as a lame ass excuse.

    Well OP is the same kind of troll afterall, that's why we will not call out Neverlands or Bunnies over whatever thread Yama-chwan can make


    Maybe we don't interact with the same Onces. But you just referenced allkpop and reddit. I don't do much kpop reddit, but I frequent akp and mainly just topics that involve Twice...... I don't see what you see mostly. What I see are people that try to downplay Twice constantly bc they are no longer on top of digitals, and Onces bringing up rightfully that they are still killing it touring, which matters the most. I don't know what topics/threads you have been viewing, but I think I have a better grasp on what Onces have been saying in the majority. And I say that only bc I feel like I probably seen more Twice related threads than you have, just being a fan. I wouldn't focus on the minority, especially when they don't make sense.


    But I agree with you, all these other metrics definitely still matter. They never didn't. Just again, I personally believe touring to be the biggest indicator of success. And I believe most musicians feel the same way.


    And not for nothing, but Twice in their flop Set Me Free era was still the 3rd most streamed GG last year. I was shook. People need to get off the Twice are flops digitally also, bc basically 99% of other currently active GG's would love to flop the way Twice did last year(s)

    Quote from Teudungi21

    you dont see once doing this either. Who does this? Dreamer? The guy who shits on Twice most of the time? What once creates threads shitting on young groups because they cant tour at Sofi stadium immediately after debut? Please present it to me outside of whatever dumb shit dreamer does.

    Thread
    Why is hybe so afraid to let newjeans make a tour?
    Are they having the olivia rodrigo syndrome? Created so much artificial success for them and now they know the actual demand can't possible match that exact kind of expected touring power? Like you could think olivia rodrigo to be a top 5 act worldwide capable of easily selling every stadium in the world by her 2 albums achievements but she is still doing arenas in 2024 four years after breaking out.

    It has been 1 and half years after newjeans supposedly took the world by storm but there is not…
    randkpopstan
    Thread
    Hybe is making Kpop so boring by literally buying the achievements with money and influence
    Performing at Kohaku was something so special for years. All the Kpop groups that performed there had to earn the right to do that. SNSD, Kara, TVXQ, Bigbang after already gaining legend status in Korea and significant acknowledgement and following in Japan. Then there literally was a 6 year of drought between 2011 and 2017, when Twice got to represent Kpop again, because they wouldn't invite just anybody.

    Now New Jeans and Le Sserafim get to perform there just because. Yes, you can make…
    Dreamer95


    Just this month.

    Quote from L0ok
    Thread
    Why is hybe so afraid to let newjeans make a tour?
    Are they having the olivia rodrigo syndrome? Created so much artificial success for them and now they know the actual demand can't possible match that exact kind of expected touring power? Like you could think olivia rodrigo to be a top 5 act worldwide capable of easily selling every stadium in the world by her 2 albums achievements but she is still doing arenas in 2024 four years after breaking out.

    It has been 1 and half years after newjeans supposedly took the world by storm but there is not…
    randkpopstan
    Thread
    Hybe is making Kpop so boring by literally buying the achievements with money and influence
    Performing at Kohaku was something so special for years. All the Kpop groups that performed there had to earn the right to do that. SNSD, Kara, TVXQ, Bigbang after already gaining legend status in Korea and significant acknowledgement and following in Japan. Then there literally was a 6 year of drought between 2011 and 2017, when Twice got to represent Kpop again, because they wouldn't invite just anybody.

    Now New Jeans and Le Sserafim get to perform there just because. Yes, you can make…
    Dreamer95


    Just this month.

    So dreamer and another guy who makes troll threads. Dreamer shits on twice just as much as he defends them these days. They in no way represent most once’s even on this forum.

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