The current bullying issue made me realize...

Soojin was NOT proven guilty just because she wore short skirts and smoked three times doesn’t mean she’s a bully. The accuser isn’t a victim either, they are the alleged victim. They haven’t come out with proof or backed their claims after Soojin came out with her statment. Plus it’s a known fact people are being accused to cover up for two Korean athletes being proven bullies. So there’s no real reason to believe the alleged victim.

Quote from ohohcollinBB

That people really go out of their way to find arguments in favor of the perpetrators.

No Im not saying I believe all those current allegations blindly. Im not saying that people who spread false allegations should not be punished with all the severity there is.

Im just saying that most of the threads I currently see are

"should people be punished for something they did in highschool"

"why would people go after someone who did them wrong years ago, why cant they just let it go?"

Things like that. Its rarely threads of people actually not indirectly shielding the perpetrator and saying something in favor of the victim. Why do we create" should xxx be forgiven" threads instead of "I hope victim xxx is feeling better" threads?

Its the same as the people who ask why people who live in households with domestic abuse just dont leave. Why they dont change their life? Why would people commit suicide? Why are girls wearing miniskirts if they dont want to be raped?

Its kind of so annoying to see how many people often put more blame on the victims be it directly or indirectly and not even the actual people at fault. Its even more sickening to see how many people are ready to excuse someone right away even after they where so wrong.

And often the excuse is "we should not ruin their career". Like idk man but the way I see it someone who is proven guilty ruined it with their own hands. None of us has some kind of contractual obligation to keep on stanning any of them forever. You are not ruining their career if you distance yourself from them because you dont have the duty to support them. I mean if you really love them keep on going. But then your argument isnt not ruining their career but its just you loving them despite whatever they did. The argument not ruining someone's career in itself standing on its own honestly doesn't make sense.

Yeah honestly it often feels like this whole world is acting in favor of the bad people and not the other way around. Really sad how much victim shaming happens even today.

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Preach. We are already in 2021 and the victims are still the guilty ones... Sad. Visit my thread if you want to see my long ass rant about this situation (not at me promoting myself here ) kkk but seriously just go to my last thread and read the replies... Shameless.

Quote from ohohcollinBB

Can you all please stop acting like I named any of those cases in my thread? This is a general discussion and not even one idol was called by their name in my thread. NOT EVEN ONE. I never said anyone of them is proven guilty just yet. I am talking about bullying and victims being shamed in its most general form.

And ps: you are doing exactly the same thing by 100% assuming she is innocent as someone eho would claim she is 100% guilty. Congratulations.

I’m not assuming she’s innocent i’m laying out the facts, and you basically asked for idle fans to raid your comments. Not an idle fan myself, but there’s no proof to proven she’s guilty so of course people would assume she’s innocent. I do believe it’s wrong to victim shame but in the case there’s no proven victim. The only thing proven but Soojin herself is that she got into an argument with the accuser and their sisters and they did curse at each other. I hate when people hop on that mindset of believe the victim for this situation cause there’s no evidence yet. In any other allegation: 100%. But this isn’t the right case to force that mindset on.

They do have a point, should people lose their career for what they did at 13 years old? That's a good question, bullying is a bad thing but things should have been resolved when they were like 13, I see no point why mid 20 should lose their career for what they did 10 years ago, yes, alleged victim if they are proved to be victims should get a closure and they should apologize, maybe a hiatus for a few months but literally losing your career I feel is way to much.

isn't there anti-bullying campaign in SK schools

or bullying only mentioned when knetz try to witch hunt idols

problems should be resolved on time on the scene not after 10 years through internet that is filled with toxic people

ohohcollinBB: I don't like victim shaming. It's bad, cruel, and harmful, and has real life, really harmful consequnces.

Y'all: Soojin's innocent tho nothings proven They aren't victims Stop being so mean ok She was a baby anyways

Quote from ohohcollinBB

Do I understand it right? We are all going off of the assumption that ahe can be eiher guilty or not guilty, basically a Schrödingers Cat situation, we dont know. But in some magical way idle fans can go after me now? When I didnt call out her name, made a very general comment about bullying and when I said none of them is guilty yet? Do you even realise how stupid and unlogical that sounds? No Im sorry but idle fans cant go after me because I never did anything wrong. And if you think they can, then you are an asshole.

I’m not an asshole tho? Never once did I attack you personally just stated my opposite opinion. I’m not some mega mind asshole cause I disagree. Plus you brung up the bullying situation which idle fans are already anxious from, of course they’d come. Personal attacks are a sign of losing an argument. You have no way to prove that anyone should believe the alleged victim now I’m an asshole. sure

Quote from ohohcollinBB

Its the same as the people who ask why people who live in households with domestic abuse just dont leave. Why they dont change their life? Why would people commit suicide? Why are girls wearing miniskirts if they dont want to be raped?

It started well but right there you mix so many things up it gets harder to reply properly.

To keep it short, it revolves around the belief that the presumption of innocence should be favored.

You ask why not as many threads to show support to the victims? Two reasons I think.

1. Speaking of victims presupposes a wrongdoing, therefore a culprit. So there's no more presumption of innocence, you already consider someone is guilty with very little information to back it up.

2. As random users of this forum, there's not much we can do about the (alleged) victims. We're not part of their entourage, we are no friends, no family.

All the recent cases have been pretty blurry and confusing, with a lot of them turning out to be fake. So I won't side with either the accused or the alleged victims until there's a clear conclusion to all of this.

But, tbh, the amount of inanities that have been posted these past few days, with people downplaying bullying as a whole and implying victims are pathetic losers for still being traumatized years later, is quite shocking.

It's pretty funny too to see that the victim is apparently the one that must reach out to their bullies if they want closure, instead of the bullies going out of their way to apologize to the ones they've wronged.

Quote from haoluvr

Soojin was NOT proven guilty just because she wore short skirts and smoked three times doesn’t mean she’s a bully. The accuser isn’t a victim either, they are the alleged victim. They haven’t come out with proof or backed their claims after Soojin came out with her statment. Plus it’s a known fact people are being accused to cover up for two Korean athletes being proven bullies. So there’s no real reason to believe the alleged victim.

Why tf would it be covering up for the twins, most of Korea has heard about them and they've been kicked off of the national team, plus they are indefinitely removed from their club. Also quick question, do you think Korean people care about Soojin more than the most well known athletes in the country? This is so stupid, it's more believable to say it was made by antis/a troll.

Quote from bumble-bunny

Why tf would it be covering up for the twins, most of Korea has heard about them and they've been kicked off of the national team, plus they are indefinitely removed from their club. Also quick question, do you think Korean people care about Soojin more than the most well known athletes in the country? This is so stupid, it's more believable to say it was made by antis/a troll.

That’s what’s going around a Korean user posted it to the forum going more into depth of course. It’d make sense being the athletes were mega big in Korea for being pretty. It’s every time I bring this up someone has to say something. It’s because they’re the most well known athletes, that they’re trying to cover it up. Especially Korea’s history is trying to save face. Which is what’s happening right now. Some of the allegations against these are false, some not so much, and the rest aren’t proven. Like this one. Plus knetz anti everyone so idk what you want me to say

If you read the thread, ppl have different answers, which means that it's a good question to discuss, not an excuse for the idols. Personally, I can't have a good answer for that; it's really hard.

Tons of idols have been accused recently, but most turned out to be fake, there aren't any victims in those cases. Some others haven't been confirmed yet, things keep unclear but the idols got tons of hate from knez and were mocked by int fans already.

Quote from haoluvr

That’s what’s going around a Korean user posted it to the forum going more into depth of course. It’d make sense being the athletes were mega big in Korea for being pretty. It’s every time I bring this up someone has to say something. It’s because they’re the most well known athletes, that they’re trying to cover it up. Especially Korea’s history is trying to save face. Which is what’s happening right now. Some of the allegations against these are false, some not so much, and the rest aren’t proven. Like this one. Plus knetz anti everyone so idk what you want me to say

what? How is more people being accused of bullying gonna help Korea save face? Won't it look worse that they have so many bullies? And why random mid tier idols, only the bigger ones have the star power to garner enough controversy to make everyone notice. Also I didn't know every knetz on the internet hated everyone, good to know that a country of fifty million people are all trash, I'll keep that in mind.

Quote from bumble-bunny

what? How is more people being accused of bullying gonna help Korea save face? Won't it look worse that they have so many bullies? And why random mid tier idols, only the bigger ones have the star power to garner enough controversy to make everyone notice. Also I didn't know every knetz on the internet hated everyone, good to know that a country of fifty million people are all trash, I'll keep that in mind.

No idiot is gonna come after big groups. Plus it has garnered mass attention so mid-tier idols isn't the term I'd use. I didn't say everyone Korean hates everyone that's just ignorant. Stop trying to twist my words into something they aren't.

Quote from bumble-bunny

ohohcollinBB: I don't like victim shaming. It's bad, cruel, and harmful, and has real life, really harmful consequnces.

Y'all: Soojin's innocent tho nothings proven They aren't victims Stop being so mean ok She was a baby anyways

I ....

Quote from ohohcollinBB

Should I be honest? In severe cases, yes I think so. I think they should pay for something even if its 10 years later. If a situation is so severe that a victim developed mental issues and maybe even thought about suicide, then I dont think there is a time limit for when something is in the past. Severe bullying is like slowly driving a person to death. People die from bullying even in 2021.

If people can be prosecuted for tax evasion years after, for robbing the bank or raping someone, then why is there an execption for bullying?

If its a mild case that didnt go on for long, maybe there is room for discussion. But if its a severe case, Im sorry but I cant excuse that with my conscience in mind imagining those people living in glitz and glam with millions loving them so that they wont "lose their career" while someone else might have imagined standing on the edge of a building seconds before jumping.

You guys are acting like someone who loses their public career can now retire and go to the retirement home and their life is over.

Counter questions, do we really want to have people like that in public careers where they can influence millions because they have so much power over people. Do we actually want that as a society, just so that they dont lose their careers?

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A 13 years old doesn't get prosecuted 10 years later for stealing or tax evasion let's be real even if happened, we are talking about minors, at 13 not even 16/17 years old, is not the same as robbing a bank at 18 and being punished at 25, I do agree for severe cases should be stronger punishments but again we are talking about 13 years old, by law they won't get much punishment either way and a adult don't get prosecuted for what they did as a child, the point is the punishment should have been done then and relative for a 13 years old.

I also don't understand what is Korea doing with all this bullying, they know they have a huge problem (and that's a understatement) and they aren't doing anything.

Is a grey area, I did heard some hard to swallow drama worthy bullying cases so probably should be take 1 by 1, each case in particular.

Quote from ohohcollinBB

Yeah honestly it often feels like this whole world is acting in favor of the bad people and not the other way around. Really sad how much victim shaming happens even today.

This

Same. I have no problem with Soojin, she was the first who caught my attention in idle and is a great performer; her quiet personality and tattoos make her refreshing in kpop too. It was mostly all the jokes and twisting that made me sick and argue with the ones defending her. Similar to when Irene's scandal happened and I was disgusted about the ones defending her action even though she's still my second favorite RV member.

Quote from ohohcollinBB

Ofc they cant be prosecuted for tax evasion. They dont pay taxes. And they are financed by their parents, why should they care enough about money to rob a bank? These are adult crimes. Bullying is one of the few bad things kids can do. There needs to be a line because if there werent we would prosecute 6 year olds for setting something on fire.

Ofc they cant be prosecuted and dealt with by law in virtually any case. But law and people forgiving and excusing you is something very different.

I know very well that back when I was 13 I knew damn well that bullying is bad. And I would have never done it. Because even back then I had a conscience and I knew bad from wrong. And I know that a ton of other kids that age know it too. And can control themselves. So I really dont see a reason to cut them some slack. I genuinely dont see it. If a lot of people can obviously not do what they did, why are there so many excuses for people who simply cant control themselves? With 13 you know that what you do is bad because you get off of it, you feel the adrenaline rush from humiliating your victims and thats why you keep on going with the bullying. You cabt convince me otherwise. And I stand with my opinion. If victims want a closure like that, then they should do it. Kids where bullied but suddenly they are the bad ones for coming forward 10 years later.

The only reason I gave those examples was because I wanted to show that pretty much most crimes dont have a timeclock on them deciding when they suddenly stop being bad. A crime is a crime, no matter how old.

Actually almost all the crimes have a time clock, statutes of limitations (I think murder is the only one without it).

Honestly I don't know, bullying is my country is very mild usually, verbal teasing or something like that, hardly ever goes physically and usually they are punished in a way or another when happens, I never been bullied and neither I bullied and I don't really know somebody with some hard bullying accusations, especially compared with what in the world some of this accusations come with, which looks straight out of dramas so I guess depends of each case, some teasing, even fighting between students shouldn't be punished 10 years later, depends how hardcore the accusations are.

Also when I said that an adult doesn't get prosecuted for what they did as child, I mean it in general, for everything, even if theoretically the 13 years old steals and people find out when he's 20, legally he can't be prosecuted for what he did at 13.

Another problem is that celebrities are being "punished" before even waiting to find out if they are even guilty or innocent. They are bullying a alleged bully which can be innocent, isn't ironic that they are fighting bullying with bullying?

Personally, I find it strange people are taking sides... fighting about who's right and who's wrong so fiercely ...... what happened to just staying neutral? There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, this isn't a game ... it's real people's lives at stake .. both which can be really hurt in these type of situations and honestly the amount of bashing I've seen on the accused and the victim blaming is really disappointing but not surprising. That's the internet for you. Hypocrites and bullies behind their computer screens allllllllllll around.

One of the reasons many kpop fans are so toxic is they think of their faves as ABOVE other humans. That's why they are not willing to show these alleged victims basic decency.

Quote from chounim

One of the reasons many kpop fans are so toxic is they think of their faves as ABOVE other humans. That's why they are not willing to show these alleged victims basic decency.

No one shows respect to anyone in these stories, in case you hadn't noticed. People are just as quick to jump on the hate bandwagon towards the defender. Basic decency should go both ways.

"ABOVE other humans" nonsense. If anything, it's because I perfectly understand that idols are flawed human beings like everybody else that I don't hold them to ridiculous standards, like no dating, no swearing, etc.

Quote from ohohcollinBB

You look at everything from a law standpoint. I look at it from a purely moral standpoint. Lets leave it at that. I dont think we will ever understand each other.

I also use my own morals for judgement because I never trust the law fully. The law is influenced by people, by the norms and morals of that time, by the people who are in power. What might be lawful isnt always moral. The Nazi time is rhe best example. So at the end of the day ofc I have to listen to the law. But I will always think by my own morals no matter what.

The law is imperfect but so is your moral compass. Your moral compass is the result of one life's experience, your own, whereas the law is the result of the cumulated experiences of many lifetimes. Of course it's okay to disagree with it sometimes. But before questioning them, people should at least understand why they've been made this way.

Quote from ohohcollinBB

At the point where they severely dramatise their own situation and bullying and lie and invent stuff to cause as much damage as possible. Cus thats not right either. And when the motive is purely revenge and its not about closure at all. I mean I can understand it, but its kinda a grey zone. Understable but not fully morally right.

Words of wisdom.

The desire for revenge is indeed very human. But it's up to us to fight against it and our other primal reflexes. And ABOVE ALL, other people should not encourage and indulge us in the pursuit of revenge because, if it's understandable for the victim to have such urges, outsiders have zero excuse.

Quote from catzi

Same. I have no problem with Soojin, she was the first who caught my attention in idle and is a great performer; her quiet personality and tattoos make her refreshing in kpop too. It was mostly all the jokes and twisting that made me sick and argue with the ones defending her. Similar to when Irene's scandal happened and I was disgusted about the ones defending her action even though she's still my second favorite RV member.

I feel like the problem with bringing up Irene in this situation is that we know Irene did it for sure. With Soojin it's unproven I'd use a different example