So it sounds like JYP hasn't given up on his American advancement dream
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YES, and trying the same thing (or something close to it) over and over expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
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twice is in a good spot rn -- they have a good foothold.
I don't know if everything else like political and medical aftermaths would be squared away in time for a clean break in to the US market but they do have the position. whether JYP is smart about entering the us is another matter.
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The thing is that Wonder Girls didn't really have Japan + it's not like JYP is pushing them in the West while they're peaking in Korea. JYP actually pushed WG early on in their career when they were peaking which led to their NGG title being snatched away and their career in Korea unsalvageable. TWICE has already peaked in Korea and have 5-6 years of hits under their belt, there's nothing left for them to prove there and in Japan + their contracts may expire soon so I understand if JYP wants to take a shot at America.
They need to figure out which group they're going to push though. If you're going to push TWICE then leave ITZY out of this Western advancement mess.
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The thing is that Wonder Girls didn't really have Japan + it's not like JYP is pushing them in the West while they're peaking in Korea. JYP actually pushed WG early on in their career when they were peaking which led to their NGG title being snatched away and their career in Korea unsalvageable. TWICE has already peaked in Korea and have 5-6 years of hits under their belt, there's nothing left for them to prove there and in Japan + their contracts may expire soon so I understand if JYP wants to take a shot at America.
They need to figure out which group they're going to push though. If you're going to push TWICE then leave ITZY out of this Western advancement mess.
ITZY also tried the Western thing, along with NCT but it didn’t really stick
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It's a completely different scenario than the Wonder Girls. But you'll ignore everything that doesn't fit your narrative anyway.
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twice is in a good spot rn -- they have a good foothold.
I don't know if everything else like political and medical aftermaths would be squared away in time for a clean break in to the US market but they do have the position. whether JYP is smart about entering the us is another matter.
Nothing is impossible these days..but honestly, a few "?s" are still left in my head. A big one: Are there any strong bi-lingual/multi-lingual western world speakers in the group? Nobody comes to mind fast. JYPE doesn't seem to have that covered with Twice or Itzy. That's going to limit their "gp reach" and audience to existing/potential K-Poppers and people who are comfortable with an "ESL situation". I can tell you from observation, people have little to no patience for others who don't speak English that well. I've witnessed and heard stories.
JYPE's relation with other people of color, who may be more accommodating for ESL speakers, in the western world seems weak or nonexistent. That's not even factoring in outstanding karma for his offenses generally towards Black people's concerns, over the years, coming from the West. An example of "chickens coming home to roost" I think. Can't make money off people, dismiss their concerns, and pull a quick 180 to win them back over for your advancement into the West. That's another story that I'm sure they thought would never impact their "West World" advancement efforts.
Who do they have on the roster would could make a play and actually communicate efficiently with a potential audience? Guy groups. You know how guy groups are blocked and "backseated" at JYPE, but let's entertain the idea anyway:
- Day6: Have singing ability, merit of musicianship, and English-language savvy but the full group isn't available. That's on top of being "pushed under the rug" in terms of promo.
- Stray Kids: Have some appeal, on the cusp of having the right songs
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GOT7: Had too favorable of a deal, but has broad international appeal and at least some of the right songs that have never seen the light of the day while with the company! Oops! No longer on the roster. A loss for the agency!
It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
I'm not one to say give up on dreams. There are gatekeepers who are going to keep most groups out and off the "traditional" airwaves, but if any K-Pop groups have music of a certain quality and can connect with potential listeners, who are not K-Poppers, through internet platforms, that's money in the bank. The music has to be good though. At least equal or better in quality than what is currently popular in the West. If most of the music coming out of K-Pop is seen as bad as the "worst" but not as good as the "best" of "Western Pop", I don't think casual "gp" listeners are going to respect groups or solo artists making crossover moves from K-Pop.
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The narrative that WG going to the US was the reason for SNSD taking the #1 top spot is a false one: SNSD would have taken the top spot regardless, it would just have meant WG would have been 1 more in the list of top contenders like 2NE1, T-ARA and KARA while SNSD would still be dominant.
The narrative that TWICE's western aspirations are the same as WG's is also a false one: WG actually went to live in the US for several years. TWICE aren't doing that.
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No one in Twice is fluent in English, but some of them (Nayeon specifically) are actively taking classes to learn. As for Itzy, Lia is fluent in English and Ryujin is getting very good.
However, the performance of Taste of Love on Billboard200 also proves you don't need English speakers to be successful in the US.
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the thing is...
people from Korea, Japan will be interested in all English song
on the other hand i-fans might be interested in Japanese song, but not soo much into buying Japanese albums...
the best way is to make this English single with MV and use it as pre-release of another Korean album which they will release in mid october/november...
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Nothing is impossible these days..but honestly, a few "?s" are still left in my head. A big one: Are there any strong bi-lingual/multi-lingual western world speakers in the group? Nobody comes to mind fast. JYPE doesn't seem to have that covered with Twice or Itzy. That's going to limit their "gp reach" and audience to existing/potential K-Poppers and people who are comfortable with an "ESL situation". I can tell you from observation, people have little to no patience for others who don't speak English that well. I've witnessed and heard stories.
JYPE's relation with other people of color, who may be more accommodating for ESL speakers, in the western world seems weak or nonexistent. That's not even factoring in outstanding karma for his offenses generally towards Black people's concerns, over the years, coming from the West. An example of "chickens coming home to roost" I think. Can't make money off people, dismiss their concerns, and pull a quick 180 to win them back over for your advancement into the West. That's another story that I'm sure they thought would never impact their "West World" advancement efforts.
Who do they have on the roster would could make a play and actually communicate efficiently with a potential audience? Guy groups. You know how guy groups are blocked and "backseated" at JYPE, but let's entertain the idea anyway:
- Day6: Have singing ability, merit of musicianship, and English-language savvy but the full group isn't available. That's on top of being "pushed under the rug" in terms of promo.
- Stray Kids: Have some appeal, on the cusp of having the right songs
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GOT7: Had too favorable of a deal, but has broad international appeal and at least some of the right songs that have never seen the light of the day while with the company! Oops! No longer on the roster. A loss for the agency!
It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
I'm not one to say give up on dreams. There are gatekeepers who are going to keep most groups out and off the "traditional" airwaves, but if any K-Pop groups have music of a certain quality and can connect with potential listeners, who are not K-Poppers, through internet platforms, that's money in the bank. The music has to be good though. At least equal or better in quality than what is currently popular in the West. If most of the music coming out of K-Pop is seen as bad as the "worst" but not as good as the "best" of "Western Pop", I don't think casual "gp" listeners are going to respect groups or solo artists making crossover moves from K-Pop.
Hello LIA is from La. And Itzy also got Hussey, Judy,Joane and Lucy that always converse in english from Time to Time
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No one in Twice is fluent in English, but some of them (Nayeon specifically) are actively taking classes to learn. As for Itzy, Lia is fluent in English and Ryujin is getting very good.
However, the performance of Taste of Love on Billboard200 also proves you don't need English speakers to be successful in the US.
Oh, snap!! I had forgotten about Lia! Ah! Isn't she from Canada though? It's in her aura.
It will be interesting to see how long they stay on the Billboard 200..at least in the top 50 is a good space.
I'm just uncertain about the western gp being accommodating to artists in music who speak English as a second language in Twice's case. Fans are going to love them regardless.
Something about the English in Twice and Itzy's respective songs just hits my intuition in a way that brings question marks up in my mind as not hitting right. Like extra syllables not typically heard in western songs. No an issue with TXT's "Magic". I think JYPE might need to exercise more care in this area or that's going to be one point of self sabotage.
I am also concerned about their live performance vocals too. Depending on backing tracks too heavily or detecting lip sync are grounds to be clowned in the West. I think Twice might be okay, but the expectation for live vocals and Itzy's complex choreo might be another area of concern. They aren't even at 5th Harmony's level yet. This is also a potential point of self sabotage.
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Twice is not specifically throwing all their eggs into the western basket and most certainly not desperate for "western validations" that many groups are trying so hard right now. This year alone before they release their English single, they had:
- Kura Kura, a Japanese single
- Alcohol Free, a Korean comeback specifically for a summer season in Korea
It is a different situation to WG and old JYP gambling everything for western success.
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Oh, snap!! I had forgotten about Lia! Ah! Isn't she from Canada though? It's in her aura.
It will be interesting to see how long they stay on the Billboard 200..at least in the top 50 is a good space.
I'm just uncertain about the western gp being accommodating to artists in music who speak English as a second language in Twice's case. Fans are going to love them regardless.
Something about the English in Twice and Itzy's respective songs just hits my intuition in a way that brings question marks up in my mind as not hitting right. Like extra syllables not typically heard in western songs. No an issue with TXT's "Magic". I think JYPE might need to exercise more care in this area or that's going to be one point of self sabotage.
I am also concerned about their live performance vocals too. Depending on backing tracks too heavily or detecting lip sync are grounds to be clowned in the West. I think Twice might be okay, but the expectation for live vocals and Itzy's complex choreo might be another area of concern. They aren't even at 5th Harmony's level yet. This is also a potential point of self sabotage.
JYP actually has a girl group that is supposedly also going to be aiming for the west and will supposedly have an English song released this year. They have 2 Native English speakers one of which actually 4 languages. Their main and lead vocalists are also known for having excellent live singing voices. The only problem is their concept which is very girly and is doubtful that that kind of concept would go over well in the Western Markets. That is unless they do a concept change for the west it may not work out. Doing the concept change though would also be difficult as their main vocal assets in Rap and singing are quite young.
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JYP actually has a girl group that is supposedly also going to be aiming for the west and will supposedly have an English song released this year. They have 2 Native English speakers one of which actually 4 languages. Their main and lead vocalists are also known for having excellent live singing voices. The only problem is their concept which is very girly and is doubtful that that kind of concept would go over well in the Western Markets. That is unless they do a concept change for the west it may not work out. Doing the concept change though would also be difficult as their main vocal assets in Rap and singing are quite young.
is it new girl group not yet debuted? Are they going to debut next year? i think yg ngg is also young like 2005 or 06 line.
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JYP actually has a girl group that is supposedly also going to be aiming for the west and will supposedly have an English song released this year. They have 2 Native English speakers one of which actually 4 languages. Their main and lead vocalists are also known for having excellent live singing voices. The only problem is their concept which is very girly and is doubtful that that kind of concept would go over well in the Western Markets. That is unless they do a concept change for the west it may not work out. Doing the concept change though would also be difficult as their main vocal assets in Rap and singing are quite young.
That might work for the Disney and Nickelodeon aged audience because expectations aren't as high.
They will have to do some decent marketing and advertisting. JYPE should not assume just because they have real "native level" English songs people are going to flock to this group; that's where the advertisting would come in.
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Let them try since they are already in the 6th year of their career.
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Let them try since they are already in the 6th year of their career.
For Twice, if they came with songs musically as strong as "Cry For Me", TWICE a year, and the English hits right (no "sus-feeling" English detected), I wouldn't mind that at all.
Looking at the history, Wonder Girl had buzz and a catchy song ("Nobody"), but lacked a strong pipeline of consistent hit follow ups.
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Y’all acting as if Twice are aiming for a Bb Hot 100 #1 Song that breaks the charts and all that shit. NO.
Twice were able to find success in the US recently even with no English speakers, less western promos, and with no “girl-crush” too or whatever that’s supposed to mean. They’re killing the game where it wasn’t ever their main market, but seeing the results, they’re simply tapping into a new market (where they already have a lot of fans in) to make use of their success there. And possibly gain more fans and a new audience.
Y’all worried about some General public shit when the only kpop group remotely known by the American public is BTS.
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I think twice has a chance to be be bigger in the west . Their recent songs are more westernized . Definitely not made targeting korean audience.
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Yep. Originally ITZY was to have 2 full English speakers with Somi and Lia but that fell through leaving them with only one. NiziU has two fully fluent English speakers with Nina and Rima but those two are really young and their vibe isn't consistent with how the west likes things. That may be changing as Olivia Rodrigo doesn't have that over the top sexiness that is prevalent in most western pop (main reason I abandoned it long ago). But even then the happy vibe that Twice, NiziU and ITZY (though to a lesser degree) has isn't popular in the West. The west likes "pain, hate, sex, FU" kind of songs which are not the same appeal as what Asian countries usually like and what JYP's groups have. ITZY comes closest to that vibe but even they are miles away from what most western pop songs are like. Hence the reason why BP rose through western popularity while Twice rose through Asian popularity to fame. While NiziU could do a mature concept the fact that their main vocalists and main rappers are all underage will just put people off if they do it. They could nail it but it would just creep people out and they would lose a lot of support back home.
I think JYPE is just throwing occasional songs out there and not really trying to penetrate the market with a girl group because it goes against their artists company style. If something sticks they will exploit it but they aren't really trying to push into the market just testing the waters so to speak. The real entry into the American Market I think is Stray Kids. That group I think appeals much more to the American style of music than any of their GGs.
As for the next JYP GG. No idea. The fact that none of their trainees is going into Girls Planet 999 is a bit telling though. I could mean lots of things one of which may be that their new GG is a bit further along in the process than most people think. Or it could mean they don't want to deal with it any more after the Produce problems so won't send their trainees anywhere ever again.
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They just need to have a minimal verses chorus and a lot of beat drop it will be successful trust me lol
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YES, and trying the same thing (or something close to it) over and over expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
How do you know JYP don't learn from history, and doing the same thing over and over?
While the goal is the same from before, doesn't mean the path is exactly/close to what they did before
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I dont think it matter much bc it wont affect them anyways
they reach a peak in sales and digitally basically last year, there is nowhere else to go with their japanese sales decreasing mainly bc jyp created other gg that cannibalize their sales
A more interesting approach would be to debut units or let them actually do solo things but that seem out of the picture, so its the group promoting until the contract run out which is what they did with wg
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It all depends on what level you are looking at it from. I'm aware of the details and actions. From a broader bird's eye view though, JYPE is still shooting with girl groups while basically blocking their guys who have certain "western-world" proficiencies built into the group. Unfortuately, JYPE is going to receive some bad karma for that.
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agreed
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Yep. Originally ITZY was to have 2 full English speakers with Somi and Lia but that fell through leaving them with only one. NiziU has two fully fluent English speakers with Nina and Rima but those two are really young and their vibe isn't consistent with how the west likes things. That may be changing as Olivia Rodrigo doesn't have that over the top sexiness that is prevalent in most western pop (main reason I abandoned it long ago). But even then the happy vibe that Twice, NiziU and ITZY (though to a lesser degree) has isn't popular in the West. The west likes "pain, hate, sex, FU" kind of songs which are not the same appeal as what Asian countries usually like and what JYP's groups have. ITZY comes closest to that vibe but even they are miles away from what most western pop songs are like. Hence the reason why BP rose through western popularity while Twice rose through Asian popularity to fame. While NiziU could do a mature concept the fact that their main vocalists and main rappers are all underage will just put people off if they do it. They could nail it but it would just creep people out and they would lose a lot of support back home.
I think JYPE is just throwing occasional songs out there and not really trying to penetrate the market with a girl group because it goes against their artists company style. If something sticks they will exploit it but they aren't really trying to push into the market just testing the waters so to speak. The real entry into the American Market I think is Stray Kids. That group I think appeals much more to the American style of music than any of their GGs.
As for the next JYP GG. No idea. The fact that none of their trainees is going into Girls Planet 999 is a bit telling though. I could mean lots of things one of which may be that their new GG is a bit further along in the process than most people think. Or it could mean they don't want to deal with it any more after the Produce problems so won't send their trainees anywhere ever again.
i said in another post before; itzy would have been much better with two English speakers strong vocalists. Lia would have gotten much less flak for being an average dancer and 3 of 5 would still be strong dancer. Also less talk sing songs. Although can't imagine itzy without Yuna. Somi would have been a good choice. i think even now JYP should consider to add another member who is a good vocalist and native English speaker. i've heard JYP has a trainee LilyM who is a strong singer. Hope they will consider adding her as long as Lia's case is resolved clearly. 6 member group is not too much and it will renew attention on them.
As for NiziU; yeah i agree with you; kpop fanbase is female dominated and they prefer girl power groups. Personally i think a Jpop group has better chance in the West than kpop group considering Japan is already famous for anime; tech; etc. kpop has a bad rep already among general public. But still i think NiziU can do well in Japan with not so cutesy concept but more like what is love or like ooh ahh; basically teen/ high school type concepts but less cutesy and more teen crush sort of. And possibly making a 5 member sub unit for American debut because 9 would be too much.
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i said in another post before; itzy would have been much better with two English speakers strong vocalists. Lia would have gotten much less flak for being an average dancer and 3 of 5 would still be strong dancer. Also less talk sing songs. Although can't imagine itzy without Yuna. Somi would have been a good choice. i think even now JYP should consider to add another member who is a good vocalist and native English speaker. i've heard JYP has a trainee LilyM who is a strong singer. Hope they will consider adding her as long as Lia's case is resolved clearly. 6 member group is not too much and it will renew attention on them.
Just my perspective, it feels like it might be too late for that. All the members are going to have to just put in work to become competent live singers if they want to really do something in the West. All the members of 5th Harmony aren't powerhouse singers either, and none of them are rappers, but they all can sing live. If 5th Harmony can, so can Itzy.
If JYPE wants Itzy to "recite" raps, they need to make sure the group becomes decent at that too. Don't "cut corners". Otherwise, they are setting them up for failure because they would be singing and reciting below the status quo in the West (Cardi B is popular, but really isn't even an average rep). If smaller K-Pop agencies can pull it off decently, it shouldn't be hard for more prestigous agencies to get their newer groups "up to code".
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Just my perspective, it feels like it might be too late for that. All the members are going to have to just put in work to become competent live singers if they want to really do something in the West. All the members of 5th Harmony aren't powerhouse singers either, and none of them are rappers, but they all can sing live. If 5th Harmony can, so can Itzy.
If JYPE wants Itzy to "recite" raps, they need to make sure the group becomes decent at that too. Don't "cut corners". Otherwise, they are setting them up for failure because they would be singing and reciting below the status quo in the West (Cardi B is popular, but really isn't even an average rep). If smaller K-Pop agencies can pull it off decently, it shouldn't be hard for more prestigous agencies to get their newer groups "up to code".
hmm i don't think it's too late to add a new member. They are only 2 year old group and all are around 20-21 age. With another main vocalist; their live stages and songs overall will improve. They don't even need to rap imo. Yeji and Chaereyong are decent as lead vocalists and Ryujin and Yuna as sub vocalists. And i think fans will welcome new member more unlike removing a member from a group. itzy is already known for their live singing despite hard choreos.
And kpop idols do not compete for the same position as Western singers. kpop is performance and fandom driven; while Western music is soloists and vocally driven. For itzy main focus should be good songs and building a western fandom. Rapping imo isn't necessary. TXT and Enhyphen aren't focused on rap and both are targeting Western market.
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Their sales in Japan are skydiving which represents that they are loosing a lot of hardcore fans that spend a lot of money on the group. And let's face it, probably 70% of the groups income came from Japan so going for more western sound may actually lead them in WG footsteps
1. Japanese market is becoming more and more digital.
2. JYP is treating Japan ONCE like they are all billionairs
3. Covid has made it harder for JP fans to buy albums due to covid measures (yes a fuck yon of Japanese people perfer to go buy stuff in person)
4. They gained over 500k followers on LINE MUSIC in 2020 (Japans main streaming site)5. Japanese albums tend to cost a liver
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1. Japanese market is becoming more and more digital.
2. JYP is treating Japan ONCE like they are all billionairs
3. Covid has made it harder for JP fans to buy albums due to covid measures (yes a fuck yon of Japanese people perfer to go buy stuff in person)
4. They gained over 500k followers on LINE MUSIC in 2020 (Japans main streaming site)5. Japanese albums tend to cost a liver
And what was your point? That they are losing fans that spend a lot of money on physical merchandise and focus on streaming
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hmm i don't think it's too late to add a new member. They are only 2 year old group and all are around 20-21 age. With another main vocalist; their live stages and songs overall will improve. They don't even need to rap imo. Yeji and Chaereyong are decent as lead vocalists and Ryujin and Yuna as sub vocalists. And i think fans will welcome new member more unlike removing a member from a group. itzy is already known for their live singing despite hard choreos.
And kpop idols do not compete for the same position as Western singers. kpop is performance and fandom driven; while Western music is soloists and vocally driven. For itzy main focus should be good songs and building a western fandom. Rapping imo isn't necessary. TXT and Enhyphen aren't focused on rap and both are targeting Western market.
It's going to be whatever it's going to be. Another member is going change the aura and dance formations of the group, for better or worse.
I don't think Itzy needs to rap either, but what have they been stubbornly instructed to do since "Dalla, Dalla"? More "reciting". No mainstream female group (which is like 4+) has rapped since TLC. If JYPE wants Itzy to continue doing it, get them the right training to deliver decently instead of showing up lacking in the West. How can Weeekly have more effective recitials and they are from a smaller agency with less resources and prestige? Itzy's team needs to support them better.
I hope all the groups going for it get some level of western success. I can't ignore the various limitations when it comes to group auras, singing ability, production discrepancies, and the like. Even if they are all targeting under 25 gp, there is a certain standard their teams should be aware of going in rather than after the fact. It could be like one of those "Who's going to tell them?" situations if they aren't trying to ID and smooth out any trouble areas ahead of entry. None of the agencies should expect to get BTS's level of success automatically by just showing up once. BTS is a "lighting strike" exception to the rule. They have certain basics covered though and the effective rapping is a "standout plus" for the group.
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