I only heard of the Sowon and Epex one before

Frankly the number of incidents listed here are very small compare to total volume of contents coming out of kpop.

I think that is a huge problem with kpop they use a lot of these things like concepts and don’t think much behind the meaning

But it does happen in the West too like maroon 5, Justin Bieber have used rising Sun imagery I think in general they not thinking

If you think about it, they're helping educate the world about history. When everyone throws a hissy fit about something stupid, people will do some research and learn about the nazis and the bad things they've done.

Thank you, Chaeyoung. Very cool.

Quote from MissBehave

True, it surprises me how many times the same mistakes are made in the west too. But then, it seems like a lot of artists don't get held accountable for theirs. See: Morgan Wallen

Agree, I think that most artists do not really care or straight up don’t know, if there are no real ramifications same mistakes will be made

Quote from MissBehave

I don't want this to be about chaeyoung or any specific idol. I'm more interested in why kpop companies don't avoid this kind of thing. Are they unconcerned about the scandal? Do they think that it doesn't actually affect their bottom line?

This article suggests that they do it in purpose for the publicity. (Any publicity is good publicity I guess?)

https://nypost.com/2021/11/30/…ks-on-a-bts-nazi-problem/

Honestly I'm sure all the articles made a lot of new people learn about Twice (and others)

I guess I'm sarcastic about the topic because it's hard to take AKP seriously when a Q shirt is problematic but there are Pepe's plastered over every inch of the site (I love Pepe though). And Q is just a dumb meme at this point anyway.

Quote from MissBehave

What's the deal with pepe?

I think the Q shirt was impossible for her to know and was a stylist issue anyway.

Btw, i actually really like Twice and I don't think this is going to affect them. Their mgmt needs to do better though.

A few years ago it was being pushed hard by media that he is the mascot of white supremacy. Some people still consider him a hate symbol. Kind of like the ok hand sign.

How 'Pepe the Frog' went from harmless to hate symbol

www.latimes.com

Pepe the Frog creator kills off internet meme co-opted by white supremacists

Matt Furie concedes defeat after months of attempting to wrench back his ‘peaceful frog-dude’ who had been appropriated as a racist hate symbol

www.theguardian.com

What the Kek: Explaining the Alt-Right 'Deity' Behind Their 'Meme Magic'

A satirical religion with a frog-headed god has become a favorite new way for white nationalists to troll liberals, while spreading their meme-driven strategy.

www.splcenter.org

Of course I don't think wearing this stuff is very smart, but I also don't think it there's any ill intent on the idol's part. I think this adage is applicable in almost all cases https://www.google.com/search?q=hanlon%27s+razor

You know the BTS one was actually a photo shoot back in 2014, and BTS had to apologise in 2018 because antis involved some Jewish group that demanded apology. Here is the photo

5B75FE56-BE89-4200-86C4-D85A10405730.jpeg

Here SNSD did something more obvious.

926C34D5-2574-40FB-8A5E-7B2451919458.jpg

A49DD47C-67A2-4B47-942B-124CB833C1D1.jpeg

081E9E52-15A2-43D3-88A8-DBE622D1E6CA.jpg

Having said this, I think during this earlier times, many kpop groups don’t really understand the implications of these symbols and thought these are just fashion.

But now in 2023, I certainly hope more people are aware and sensitive to these issues.

Quote from SandyBee3

You can still choose to not stan Kpop. I mean with that many mistakes they obviously don’t view it as critical as in the west.

You can wait for them to be all educated… but the faster road for your emotional well being is to stop following Kpop.

They will continue to do ignorant things, I mean Korea itself isn’t that progressive either. So probably some of your faves might not support the things you do.

You safe yourself so much stress believe me.

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Sorry, but that's not a solution. When someone is doing something wrong, you don't just look the other way and pretend it isn't happening.

Quote from MissBehave

A lot of idols learn English though. It depends on what they are targeting. Monsta X worked a lot on their English and it paid off in their pronunciation for their English releases and during their promos.

I don't think they need to take history classes. I think they could only get by with a few simple rules

1. No nazi imagery

2. No rising sun

3. No ccp

4. No confederate flag

5. No war related imagery

6. No n words

Add to the list as necessary when other idols get in trouble lol

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european youth also knows english but would still do things you mentioned.

ccp, rising sun and confederate flag; i never saw anyone wearing their symbols or prints, but some might if they liked the aesthetic.

i've been at many concerts and whenever the n word was said in lyrics the audience would say/sing it. why? because it's in lyrics. i wouldn't know it was a problematic word and it shouldn't be said if i weren't on social media. we don't share history, we have nothing in common. to know this means that i have to specifically search for it or read about it. but i do know now.

i'm sure artists are uncomfortable when they hear it and i feel bad for them, but i assume they expect it to happen

---------------

controversies help both us and idols learn, so in a weird way it's a good thing

Quote from MissBehave

I wanted to know more about how nazism is portrayed in SK and stumbled across this article from The Guardian. I didn't realize there were so many incidents (with accompanying scandals and apologies) in kpop. Seems like kpop cumulative companies should maybe learn from others and not stumble into the same pitfalls. Do they just not care?

This post isn't meant to be about the current incident. I'm trying to talk about why kpop companies continue making mistakes that they know dang well got other idols in trouble.

K-pop star Chaeyoung apologises for wearing swastika logo

Member of girl group Twice says she ‘didn’t correctly recognise the meaning’ of symbol on Sid Vicious T-shirt she wore

Ben Beaumont-Thomas

 @ben_btWed 22 Mar 2023 05.35 EDT

Chaeyoung, a member of Twice – one of the most globally successful K-pop groups – has apologised after wearing a T-shirt featuring a swastika.

The 23-year-old’s T-shirt featured an image of Sex Pistols bassist Sid Vicious wearing a swastika logo. She posted a photo of herself wearing it on her Instagram account to her 8.6 million followers, but soon deleted it, replacing it with an apology. “I didn’t correctly recognise the meaning of the tilted swastika in the T-shirt I wore,” she wrote. “I deeply apologise for not thoroughly reviewing it, causing concern. I will pay absolute attention in the future to prevent any situation similar from happening again.”

It was the second clothing-related controversy for the vocalist this week, after she performed in a crop top emblazoned with an American flag in a Q shape and the slogan “where we go one, we go all”, a phrase used by conspiracy theorist network QAnon.

It is also far from the first Nazi logo controversy in the K-pop world. In 2018, managers for the world’s biggest K-pop group, BTS, apologised after one of their members was pictured wearing a hat in a style originally worn by SS officers, featuring a swastika and eagle logo. Another member was pictured wearing a T-shirt celebrating Korean liberation from Japanese rule in 1945, accompanied by a picture of an atomic mushroom cloud.

In 2021, Sowon, a member of girl group GFriend, apologised after being photographed with a Nazi mannequin, and hugging and caressing it.

In 2022, a member of girl group Purple Kiss was pictured wearing a swastika in a military-themed photoshoot, with the label apologising and stating “the responsibility of this incident is not on the artist”.

Also in 2022, Korean boyband Epex changed lyrics to their song Anthem of Teen Spirit after references to “crystal night”, “the night in the crystal” and “burning raw” were seen as referencing the 1938 Kristallnacht pogrom against Jews in Nazi Germany. The group also wore military uniforms in the song’s video that somewhat resembled ones worn by Nazi officers. The group’s label C9 Entertainment argued that the imagery was inspired by George Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four, and the lyrics referred to “robotised education system” in Korea, but apologised and altered the lyrics.

In 2014, Korean girl group Pritz wore black stage outfits with Nazi-like logos on red and white armbands. The group’s management claimed they were unaware of the similarity, and that the logos were inspired by traffic signage.

Chaeyoung’s nine-member group Twice have enjoyed crossover success outside South Korea since their debut in 2015, with four of their albums reaching the US Top 10

https://www.theguardian.com/mu…aring-swastika-logo-twice

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The problem is unfortunately people only see things from their point of view the western world point of view. Nobody ever give a fuck to look at it from the pov of Asians or any other country. Only thing that matters is YOUR POV.

Another reason these symbols end up being used is for a fact most Asian countries including Korea are conservative and quite religious countries Buddhism is also a big part of our tradition and culture. The swastika is actually a spiritual symbol from Buddhism. The Nazi just misused it. Example this would be like some nasty group taking the Christian cross and use it to do evils and then afterwards you go demonize christians for using a symbol that has been apart of their life since the beginning all because some other asshole used it🤡.

Plus world history the specific details aren't taught unless it's an elective. ( Who knew a country may not teach you everything about a subject when it didn't affect you personally) every country does that by the way. Just like the massacre of Gwangju a very dark times with torture genocide etc here in Korea just less than 40 yrs ago but bet you 99.99% of you know jack shit about it.

Quote from MissBehave

I don't hold fans to the same standards. I think artists who borrow so heavily from black culture should respect it enough to learn about it, at least to the point of not being blatantly offensive

Problem here is you should be. Why? Because those idols likely had the same education fans had. When someone here is taught about American history we get a over simplification of it a very brief history lesson about it and then that's it. So Koreans know that the n word proper is bad, a good amount of Koreans including idols actually admire other cultures, and people emulating them is an appreciation of them. There's a huge disconnect between the USA/western culture and that of most of the world, you see here in Korea and much of the world sharing, adopting and emulating another's culture was seen as a good thing and a sign of respect. An oh they like us moment. But in the west people say cultural appropriation, and that word is literally alien to most of us.

This is even worse with the whole N word debacle because our history gives us the basics, people will look up stuff but mainly get the general definition and be like ok i understand that and thats it. The problem here is the nuance, our lives and worlds are separate we don't share nor live the same history so there's many cues we would not know until someone else from there literally told us. Because this word got tricky because one the other n word got altered and then is used profusely in everyday life between people from this specific ethnicity and then in music and then used endearingly or not when addressing other people who are not from the same ethnicity. So can you understand how confusing it would be for you an outsider to not have all the context unless you knew that little subtle stuff about it to know you can't use it and the only way you know that is if you are from there. No book or text book teacher will tell you these things it's only something a native could tell you.

Quote from kazuyakamenashi

The problem is unfortunately people only see things from their point of view the western world point of view. Nobody ever give a fuck to look at it from the pov of Asians or any other country. Only thing that matters is YOUR POV.

Another reason these symbols end up being used is for a fact most Asian countries including Korea are conservative and quite religious countries Buddhism is also a big part of our tradition and culture. The swastika is actually a spiritual symbol from Buddhism. The Nazi just misused it. Example this would be like some nasty group taking the Christian cross and use it to do evils and then afterwards you go demonize christians for using a symbol that has been apart of their life since the beginning all because some other asshole used it🤡.

Plus world history the specific details aren't taught unless it's an elective. ( Who knew a country may not teach you everything about a subject when it didn't affect you personally) every country does that by the way. Just like the massacre of Gwangju a very dark times with torture genocide etc here in Korea just less than 40 yrs ago but bet you 99.99% of you know jack shit about it.

I mean......you're talking about the average citizen but kpop idols trying to go global and get that global cash should be put on a totally different pedestal and get proper PR training since that's just necessary with the current social media of today. Like the OP pointed out several cases where idols got major heat for nazi-related imagery and they had to apologize for it. It's just baffling that there are kpop companies don't seem to learn from seeing these issues pop up and make it as a general part of their PR training. Protecting your idols' reputation = more success = more profit. It's just basic logic. So either they're completely incompetent.....or they just don't care and believe that fans will continue giving them money like sheep regardless. And if the latter is true........then these companies can go f**k themselves and they deserve all the heat.

To the “moral superior” Americans in these threads who scream that “KoReAns sHould EducAte” themselves yet can’t even educate themselves about US role in the Korean War (more Civilian deaths that ww2, US still occupy Korea and their stationed military still commit all kind of atrocities towards Korean citizens)

or any I-fan lacking basic geographical knowledge that Asia is a continent not a country

IM SIDE-EYEING YOU SO HARD RIGHT NOW

Quote from Tenken101

I mean......you're talking about the average citizen but kpop idols trying to go global and get that global cash should be put on a totally different pedestal and get proper PR training since that's just necessary with the current social media of today. Like the OP pointed out several cases where idols got major heat for nazi-related imagery and they had to apologize for it. It's just baffling that there are kpop companies don't seem to learn from seeing these issues pop up and make it as a general part of their PR training. Protecting your idols' reputation = more success = more profit. It's just basic logic. So either they're completely incompetent.....or they just don't care and believe that fans will continue giving them money like sheep regardless. And if the latter is true........then these companies can go f**k themselves and they deserve all the heat.

Like i said people are the product of their environment. You just talked about agencies should be educating idols when the agencies are the ones that saw greenlit or even gave them thrde outfits etc everyone from turbo to BTS has had something like this lol can't say they should be on a different scale when they too are just like the average person but popular. If thr agencies and others around them "fail" to educate the idol what the fuck makes you think they are better? This is like if you're family friends employer and the people in your home town didn't know a thing why the fuck would i expect you to know that thing when everyone with a direct influence on you doesn't know it either?

Quote from Demon_owl

To the “moral superior” Americans in these threads who scream that “KoReAns sHould EducAte” themselves yet can’t even educate themselves about US role in the Korean War (more Civilian deaths that ww2, US still occupy Korea and their stationed military still commit all kind of atrocities towards Korean citizens)

or any I-fan lacking basic geographical knowledge that Asia is a continent not a country

IM SIDE-EYEING YOU SO HARD RIGHT NOW

People only look through the lens of western POV. Never anyone else's experience its soo hypocritical and insulting when all these woke people who say stuff like don't talk over x or whatever never fuckin listen or understand the other side of the world its always what they think is right there's no nuance or understanding its our line of thinking and point of view period. Never do these people say hmm let me try and understand why this place and people are like this? Let me study about the culture history and lifestyle of them try and put myself in those shoes and get a glimpse of how I'd react from the other side

Quote from MissBehave

This article suggests that they do it in purpose for the publicity. (Any publicity is good publicity I guess?)

That seems very malicious.

Short answer is probably because military as a concept is huge in kpop (bc sk military has a huge impact on their society) and, like many user from around the world have pointed out, people outside of english speaking countries weren't aware of specific symbolism to this era and the possiblity of it being tied to problematic things.

I mean, most of those scandals are about the same things which are clothes and not actually antisemitism. Does it make it right? No. But its really not that reach to think this when people go around wearing c-word shirts because the english swear word most people know is "fuck" and "bitch".

Edit: I think the fact the girl literally walked DAYS went to official interviews, spoke to other celebrities, talked all day to her group, manager, staff both korean and american and NO ONE pointed it out to her means how easy is for this thing to happen.

Quote from icyruios

Honestly I think it's just ignorance or they like totally missed it because it isn't something significant enough for them to go like "oh wait wtf why is this outfit like this"

Like if it isn't something that is super obvious to them, people tend to overlook. It may be obvious to you but not to them.

I'm not saying that it is ok, it is still wrong, but it is what it is

I mean we were taught about Nazi symbol is bad in Singapore but nobody taught us anything about this Rising Sun symbol thingy even though Japan invaded us.. I am not sure whether they do that now but I highly doubt so so yeah I agree it might be obvious to some but not us lol...

Quote from kazuyakamenashi

Like i said people are the product of their environment. You just talked about agencies should be educating idols when the agencies are the ones that saw greenlit or even gave them thrde outfits etc everyone from turbo to BTS has had something like this lol can't say they should be on a different scale when they too are just like the average person but popular. If thr agencies and others around them "fail" to educate the idol what the fuck makes you think they are better? This is like if you're family friends employer and the people in your home town didn't know a thing why the fuck would i expect you to know that thing when everyone with a direct influence on you doesn't know it either?

Lol imagine defending these multi-million dollar companies for being willfully ignorant. Like they can't afford consultants

lol the fact a lot of people didn't even know about most of the incidents shows that no one really cares and it's not that big of a deal.

we know classism and colorism ( both of which extend to racism ) is part and parcel of this industry

for all we know, some idols or atleast the teams behind them could be actual believers in nazi ideologies

its not like they'll ever proudly tell us

Quote from MissBehave

Photoshoot stylists need to stop trying to be so edgy and have their stuff vetted by knowledgeable staff.

The photo shoot was happening in Germany, and german company was responsible for it. Apparently they mixed props and gave RM a wrong one.

(If I remember correctly, it was photoshoot for Celine or some other magazine).

Quote from MissBehave

Because other idols have gotten into these scandals before so it's not unknown.

The worst false equivalency statement there ever was. Because it goes back to my first comment, people not knowing, and only knowing as much as their peers their peers being the entire population they are around an idol is still a average person, there's nothing different about their education in comparison to the guy that goes to a shit job everyday. Not everyone knows everything that happens in the industry. Hell as a Korean, there are people here who don't know who BTS is or couldn't recognize them if they were standing in front of them.

these scandals etc are only known by fans because they pay attention to it. Most people who are not into kpop won't know jack shit. Same does happen to some idols and agencies