RE: What does Izone have that separates them from IOI, Wanna One, X1, Kep1er?

Quote from LovenRose

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What does Izone have that separates them from IOI, Wanna One, X1, Kep1er?

All the other Produce groups flop post disband (Wanna One, IOI), got disbanded from debut (X1) or go downwards every comeback (Kep1er). But Izone was leader while active and continue to be leaders now with Ive, Lsrfm. Is it the members, luck or something else that save Izone from Produce curse?
DIA has Chaeyeon from IOI
youtu.be/fEYF3T0kQEo
youtu.be/p4r_9U-ULEg
youtu.be/pmMjkMtpnTc

OP

Nov 24th 2022

LSFM are from Hybe, they would have done well either way. I'm happy Chaewon and Sakura debuted in the group but them being there is not the main reason for the group's success. Just like Itzy had a successful debut even after Somi left JYP. Or Newjeans instant success.

I agree with some of the other points but I disagree with this part. Chaewon, Sakura, and the Wiz*Ones that they brought with them were hugely responsible for keeping the group afloat even though the group got hit hard by a bullying scandal on debut. It doesn't matter if they're Big 4 or not: A huge scandal like that on debut is usually a death sentence since most debut fans aren't loyal yet. Not to mention how much the girls contributed to the album sales. Sakura's Chinese fan base alone accounted for ~160,000 of Antifragile's ~600,000 pre order. Add her International fan base and it's even more. Also Chaewon is basically the charismatic face of the group. Her impact for the group's image can't be understated.

Quote from LovenRose

Thread

What does Izone have that separates them from IOI, Wanna One, X1, Kep1er?

All the other Produce groups flop post disband (Wanna One, IOI), got disbanded from debut (X1) or go downwards every comeback (Kep1er). But Izone was leader while active and continue to be leaders now with Ive, Lsrfm. Is it the members, luck or something else that save Izone from Produce curse?
DIA has Chaeyeon from IOI
youtu.be/fEYF3T0kQEo
youtu.be/p4r_9U-ULEg
youtu.be/pmMjkMtpnTc

OP

Nov 24th 2022

This thread has been done so many times but here we go:

First, X1 aren't really relevant to this. They barely debuted before they disbanded.

Kep1er's situation is also vastly different. GP999 had a lot less support and hype compared to Produce due to the scandal and rebranding. Kep1er didn't have a fandom as big as Izone's to begin with and they're also managed by a different agency. Wakeone is managing Kep1er and they're doing an awful job at it. The promotion is directionless, dated and painfully low budget.

So that leaves IOI, Wanna One and Izone.

IOI was the first Produce group and was treated like a test subject. Their contract only lasted nine months and compared to W1 and Izone their promotion was kinda messy. The members agencies were also going in blind when re-debuting them and made lots of mistakes that later seasons could avoid. For example, almost all IOI members re-debuted in groups with 8+ members while both W1 and Izone members all debuted in smaller groups or as soloists. Lets be honest, if Jellyfish had the same information they would never have debuted Sejeong in Gugudan.

Wanna One is trickier since they were arguably the most successful Produce group. Their contract was also a lot shorter than Izone's, a whole year shorter, so that still played a part in it. Being a boy group made it harder for the members to stay relevant with the GP after disbandment too. No 4th gen boy group can chart, not even big 4, so small and mid-tier agencies managing it, even with a W1 member, is obviously no easy task. Cube's nbg had the most hype with multiple well known members but for some reason their debut fell through and the members all left. Kang Daniel got into a court dispute with his old agency right after W1's disbandment and couldn't promote for months, killing a lot of his momentum. Afterwards he started his own agency and is now managing himself. He's doing okay, good sales for a soloist, but there's clearly a difference between what his own, new agency can achieve compared to a big, established one.

Plus people are kinda overhyping ex-Izone's members success. The only ones who are really doing well are Ive, LSFM and Yena. Eunbi, Yuri and Chaeyeon all underperformed as soloists. Not sure what Hyewon and Minju are even doing. Nako and Hitomi are doing okay in Japan I think but don't really know enough about the Jpop scene.

LSFM are from Hybe, they would have done well either way. I'm happy Chaewon and Sakura debuted in the group but them being there is not the main reason for the group's success. Just like Itzy had a successful debut even after Somi left JYP. Or Newjeans instant success.

Yena's debut did great but Smartphone wasn't as popular and neither of her two songs are close to as successful as Chungha's Rollercoaster (her first comeback). Admittedly Yena's sales are a lot better than Chungha's but very few solo artists, especially female soloists, continue to have strong sales without charting to back it up. (tho I hope Yena stays popular. Love her as a soloist)

That leaves Ive. Ive is the only one who's popularity is exceptional or surprising. Yena isn't doing anything we haven't seen before and LSFM are a Big 4 group. So yeah, Ive is the mystery I suppose.

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Bro, you have some disproportionately high standards for Eunbi, Chaeyeon, and Yuri. There are literally only six 4th gen soloists out there actually successful enough to get comebacks and four of them are Izone (the other two are Miyeon and Soyeon).

No but this has been asked a hundred times and the answer has always been that Iz*One and post-Iz*One had the most benefits and advantages compared to all the other seasons of Produce groups.

People always forget that for the first season, there was no "Produce hype" or "Produce privilege" or whatever you want to call it. It was the first of its kind and what got them attention was the large scale 101 contestants and their performances that went viral like Bang Bang etc. The trainees were all mostly from no-name companies or small companies with idols who were desperate to debut and saw it as a last chance for a debut. It wasn't like the second or third season where people knew it was a red carpet to success, and had all the built in hype.

And as a lot of people have already said, IOI's contract lasted for 8 months, and barely had time to build a fanbase. Wanna One was 1.5 years, and X1 didn't even get a chance. Iz*One had the longest time, had the built in fanbase from Japanese 48 groups with Sakura, Nako and Hitomi.

Everyone knows about all the shit contracts and what not, but no one talks about all the companies differences. Post-IOI companies had Jellyfish and Fantagio, both are acting companies with little to no idol group experiences (VIXX and Astro are the only groups), MBK was always shit, Pledis had After School and Seventeen, so they were promising but unexpectedly disbanded PRISTIN less than 2 years into the group. If it wasn't for Produce and IOI, they would have been one of those groups that no one ever know or hear about and quietly disbanded. Compare this to Iz*One where the groups are from HYBE, a BIG 4 company at this point in time and Starship who's previously managed Sistar and WJSN, both groups with hits esp Sistar and have always been stable in the mid-upper tier of girl groups.

And yes, I agree that people are kinda overhyping Iz*One success. IVE is doing fantastic, Lesserafim is up there too just because they're from HYBE, Yena had Smiley which did well, and she's always around in variety, but Smartphone did not find the same success.

The others are all a few tiers below that. They get good sales from their fanbases, but Yuri, Eunbi and Chaeyeon have essentially no presence in the charts, neither are they popular or well-known enough to be appearing on TV shows or having CFs. Hyewon is not even the main lead in her web-dramas and she's doing some YouTube thing, but are we really acting like that's doing great now? Minju is acting as a supporting cast at this point in time, and Nako and Hitomi are in Japan, so I won't comment too much on that.

People are calling all other Produce idols as flops, but they're doing just as well, if not even better. Somi, Sejeong, Chungha, and Daniel are all A-tiers. Jung Chaeyeon has no problem getting lead roles on TV dramas, Park Jihoon's drama just went viral and he seems to be the next big acting idol. Ong Seongwoo is booked for like 5 dramas and films, Kang Mina is consistently getting work in TV dramas. Jieqiong and Guanlin are both booking lead roles and variety shows in China as well. If anything, getting work outside of music and into other a more respected field of acting is a much greater success than the idol life

It's like every 1-2 month we got post like this in anon

Quote from LovenRose

Chaewon and Sakura are both talented idols and brought fans with them so ofc they helped, all ex-produce members helped their groups to a certain extent, but a big 4 group is a big 4 group. Looking at any other group Hybe’s debuted it’s obvious that they in no way needed ex-Izone members to create a popular group. It helped but clearly they would have been fine without them.

And there’s no reason to think LSFM would have been done in by the scandal without Wizones. Antifraigle is doing better than Fearless in both Korea and internationally. Neither the GP or casual fans abandoned them. A scandal at debut has never been a death sentence for a big agency group so not sure where you’re getting that from.

But there's a difference between just "fine" and actually being considered one of the top groups. We can all agree that to be even considered for top end of the kpop spectrum, a group would need to have both digital charting and sales/fanbase. For LSFM, the digital part can be attributed to the attention they get as a Big 4/HYBE group. But we have to look at the sales/fanbase half of their success.

A poll was recently held in the Lesserafim subreddit about when the fans joined the fandom:

Interesting question to which i wanted to see the results, at what point did u become a fan of the group?? ( Comment below ur experience)

With our sub growing sooo fast nd fimmies also growing a lot in popularity, I wanted to hear from u guys when u became fans nd the reason for it....

www.reddit.com

In the poll, it shows that 52% of the fandom (prior to Antifragile) were ex Wiz*Ones. As I mentioned before, Sakura's cfans accounted 160,000 of the Antifragile pre orders. The International Sakura fans probably ~120,000. Chaewon fans are probably around ~120,000 too since she was popular in Korea/Japan. So these two girls by themselves account for ~400,000 of the 600,000 pre orders for Antifragile. So how can you really say that ex-Izone members didn't have a major roll in the group's popularity when they make up more than 50% of of the fanbase and more than 60% of the sales? Would LSMF still be considered a top group if they charted well but only sold 200,000 albums?

Now when you analyze it, the Wiz*Ones had such a large % affect on the sales prior to Antifragile BECAUSE the group got hit hard by the "bullying" scandal and they were left to carry the group. I personally saw many fans leave the fandom and several large twitter fansites close down or switch sides during the height of the scandal. You mention that "A scandal at debut has never been a death sentence for a big agency group" but what other big agency group has actually had a big scandal during their debut before they got to establish a fanbase like LSFM did? Who is there to compare to?

Also also, let's talk about their JP popularity. LSFM, a Korean kpop group, was invited to perform at Kohaku uta gassen this year, the most prestigious year end music show in Japan. This is prior to even having an official debut in Japan and is basically unheard of. And being Big 4 didn't land them this slot. Aespa hasn't been invited before. And even though JYP has two of the biggest GGs in Japan right now with NiziU and Twice, that's not enough to get ITZY or NMIXX in. It's not a stretch to say that Sakura being well known in Japan and being a Kohaku uta gassen veteran for 3x gave them a push into this invite. Not to mention it's probably not a coincidence that the other kpop rookie invited, IVE, happens to share a similar connection to IZ*One that LSFM does. IZ*One was decently popular in Japan and that shouldn't be ignored.

And lastly......if IZ*One was such a minor factor, then why did HYBE bother to spend the money to buy out Sakura and Chaewon's contracts in the first place (and also aim for Minju) for one of their flagship GGs? They could have easily saved that money, used two of the many trainees they had lying around, and depended on their Big 4 status to carry LSFM. But they didn't, did they?

having the longest contract duration meant greater time in order to build a solid fanbase a lot which carried through to the post-izone groups

I think even people like chaeyeon/yuri/eunbi did fine for soloists in terms of sales and performance and charting

The only one that I disagree with is the Kep1er one. They are not as popular as Izone in Korea but they have more hype internationally than Izone. Their early debut fanbase is much bigger than Izone because of the involvement of the international voters. However, the hype died down and fans left because of the horrible TT choices, terrible management and questionable concept that not suitable with all the members. They have more chances then Izone actually with the bigger international fanbase, but Wakeone destroying their momentums.

Quote from Bpsosoro

didn’t have to deal with the effect the rigging scandal had like kep1er

they are literally on the verge of disbandment bro, their first full album experienced 2-month delay from december to february because of the rigging scandal.

all wiz*one had was their highlight medley and anxiety attack that iz*one would disband before their much anticipated 2nd comeback, knowing well that the album is more than ready to be released

People have already said it, but IOI and Wanna One members mostly came from small companies, and by the third season of Produce came around, their companies have learnt from the mistakes.

Imagine if Chaewon was added to Rocket Punch, Yena was added to Everglow, and Lee Chaeyeon's company debuted another girl group. Things would be looking a whole lot different.

Instead, Chaewon and Sakura went to a big company in HYBE. Yena, Yuri and Eunbi went solo rather than being buried in a small company girl group.

But then again, it's not like IOI and Wanna One members are doing horrible, it's just most of them are working in a different field rather than music and are already in a different point in their careers. Let's flip it around, how many Iz*One members are acting, getting lead roles on TV dramas and films?

In IOI, there's Sejeong, Chaeyeon, Mina, Jieqiong, Doyeon, all consistently getting work in big roles. Most people dismissed Nayoung and Sohye as flops, but even Nayoung has a film coming out, is promoting on Knowing Bros this week, and Sohye has been casted as a main lead role in a TV drama coming out next year.

personally, their songs do make a different, i think out of the 4 groups, i like theirs the most!!!

Quote from Tenken101

But there's a difference between just "fine" and actually being considered one of the top groups. We can all agree that to be even considered for top end of the kpop spectrum, a group would need to have both digital charting and sales/fanbase. For LSFM, the digital part can be attributed to the attention they get as a Big 4/HYBE group. But we have to look at the sales/fanbase half of their success.

A poll was recently held in the Lesserafim subreddit about when the fans joined the fandom:

https://www.reddit.com/r/lesse…hich_i_wanted_to_see_the/

In the poll, it shows that 52% of the fandom (prior to Antifragile) were ex Wiz*Ones. As I mentioned before, Sakura's cfans accounted 160,000 of the Antifragile pre orders. The International Sakura fans probably ~120,000. Chaewon fans are probably around ~120,000 too since she was popular in Korea/Japan. So these two girls by themselves account for ~400,000 of the 600,000 pre orders for Antifragile. So how can you really say that ex-Izone members didn't have a major roll in the group's popularity when they make up more than 50% of of the fanbase and more than 60% of the sales? Would LSMF still be considered a top group if they charted well but only sold 200,000 albums?

Now when you analyze it, the Wiz*Ones had such a large % affect on the sales prior to Antifragile BECAUSE the group got hit hard by the "bullying" scandal and they were left to carry the group. I personally saw many fans leave the fandom and several large twitter fansites close down or switch sides during the height of the scandal. You mention that "A scandal at debut has never been a death sentence for a big agency group" but what other big agency group has actually had a big scandal during their debut before they got to establish a fanbase like LSFM did? Who is there to compare to?

Also also, let's talk about their JP popularity. LSFM, a Korean kpop group, was invited to perform at Kohaku uta gassen this year, the most prestigious year end music show in Japan. This is prior to even having an official debut in Japan and is basically unheard of. And being Big 4 didn't land them this slot. Aespa hasn't been invited before. And even though JYP has two of the biggest GGs in Japan right now with NiziU and Twice, that's not enough to get ITZY or NMIXX in. It's not a stretch to say that Sakura being well known in Japan and being a Kohaku uta gassen veteran for 3x gave them a push into this invite. Not to mention it's probably not a coincidence that the other kpop rookie invited, IVE, happens to share a similar connection to IZ*One that LSFM does. IZ*One was decently popular in Japan and that shouldn't be ignored.

And lastly......if IZ*One was such a minor factor, then why did HYBE bother to spend the money to buy out Sakura and Chaewon's contracts in the first place (and also aim for Minju) for one of their flagship GGs? They could have easily saved that money, used two of the many trainees they had lying around, and depended on their Big 4 status to carry LSFM. But they didn't, did they?

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I agree but didn’t Sakura just graduate on her own? I don’t think her contract had to be bought

Quote from LovenRose

This is so well put. Agree with all of it.

Only a small detail that's off. "the trainees were all mostly from no-name companies or small companies with idols who were desperate to debut and saw it as a last chance for a debut." This is not really true. While the first season had to build it's own hype there were a lot of bigger agencies participating. All well known mid-tier agencies were there like Starship, Cube, Pledis, FNC etc.

I know that there are trainees from mid-tier agencies, but the vast majority of contestants are still from no-name and small companies. Cube and Starship both sent 3 trainees each, DSP sent 2, Pledis sent the most with like 7 iirc. JYP with Somi was the only one from a top agency and out of the 101 contestants, the vast majority of 80+ leftovers are a mix of independent individual trainees, small companies and those from actor companies with little to no prior idol group experiences like Fantagio etc.

Compare that to season 3 PD48, where you have a mix of notable companies such as Cube, FNC, Pledis, RBW, Starship, Stone Music, WM, Woollim, YG subsidiary YGKPlus, Yuehua and all the Japanese 48 groups. The difference is night and day when you see how many recognisable labels have participated in the latter seasons of the show.

Quote from lialve

I agree but didn’t Sakura just graduate on her own? I don’t think her contract had to be bought

TBH I don't really know lol. AKB has always been confusing to me since apparently the girls are normally contracted with both Vernalossom and with a separate agency. And it seems like the contracts are pretty secretive and might differ between individuals. Some contracts apparently have a non-competing clause so that a girl who graduates can't take any entertainment offers for a certain time frame.

I just remember that there was news of negotiations between HYBE and Varnalossom for months regarding Sakura's contract and that they were having difficulty coming to terms. I don't know if those negotiations required a buyout or what but I did think it was odd that HYBE was negotiating with Vernalossom in the first place if Sakura could have simply just graduated at will and negotiated with HYBE directly (unless she was using Vernalossom as her proxy to negotiate favorable terms for her or something like that)

Produce 101 would have had a hit group, but Twice just debuted, so Somi had to wait 2 years till 2019 to debut in Itzy (but left right before for whatever reason). For perspective, that's like Wonyoung debuting in 2023. JYP didn't plan on sending Somi to Produce 101 (Somi forced it), so they had no plan for her after.

Sejeong and Mina could have made Gugudan big as well, but the concept was just bad.

Somi, Sejeong (and Chungha) are very successful despite all that though.