Do you like that positions are a rarity now in groups?
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never really cared about positions. not like they're a basketball team or something-- or just like playing in a traditional band with instruments
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Yeah it's cool to have some flexibility.
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It was stupid to have them in the first place so this is definitely better
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Yes, it's better this way
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Is it really like that now? I mean if there’s a member that’s a good singer and gets most of the lines then clearly they’re the main singer regardless if it’s officially stated or not.
That’s precisely the point. Let the idols prove themselves with their skills (and if they become the best the result will show itself) instead of boxing them into particular positions decided by the company from the start. That’ll abolish petty in-fandom fights about “this member is way better than the main-” or “why does this member have more lines than the main-“ or “why does this member get the dance break but the main didn’t” etc, and it also allows the idols to flourish in every direction they want through the course of their career and become more well-rounded instead of always just being known as “the rapper” or “the dancer” etc. from the beginning, which could hinder their growth
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I stan group with "main" position and group with not. And honestly, it doesn't change much. It is mainly used to present the capacity in which they are the best.
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Whether they have positions or not, do the position assignments actually impact groups in the first place?
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I miss them in kpop.
Order and structure appeals to me on a foundational level.
The hierarchical aspect and emphasis on title/status of Korean social organization is intriguing to me.
Even if historically in kpop defined positions were not always functional and perhaps more nominal in nature, I miss that more overt sense of ordered organization in kpop group dynamics.
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That’s precisely the point. Let the idols prove themselves with their skills (and if they become the best the result will show itself) instead of boxing them into particular positions decided by the company from the start. That’ll abolish petty in-fandom fights about “this member is way better than the main-” or “why does this member have more lines than the main-“ or “why does this member get the dance break but the main didn’t” etc, and it also allows the idols to flourish in every direction they want through the course of their career and become more well-rounded instead always just being known as “the rapper” or “the dancer” etc. from the beginning, which could hinder their growth
But that’s still the same situation as before but this time without knowing before hand.
I’ll use SNSD example since I’m most familiar with theM.
If there’s no official positions and on songs taeyeon gets most lines then clearly she is the main. SM deliberately gives her the most lines for a reason. Fans aren’t clever for figuring out she has the skills for main, it’s SM who gave main level responsibility. So essentially she’s already be declared the main vocal regardless if SM didn’t put out a CV listing her as the “main vocal”. Same with Hyoyeon, if she gets a dance break or leads parts then it’s deliberate decision by sm to already make her the main dancer. Or if yoona is continually the one praised for looks and gets most cfs then of course she is the visual.
So then we’re back to square 1. If sm tells us who is main then that’s that it’s final but they don’t then we simply look at the observable evidence and draw our own conclusions especially if they’re very obvious. Basically There’s no difference with positions vs without.
The only Situations where they would be debate would be for positions such as leads or subs. Is Tiffany better than Seohyun? Is Sunny better than both? Those positions have no official rank (lead vocal number 1, lead vocal 2 etc) so there’s a lot more room for interpretation. With no designations since the days of Jessica being the definitive number 2 there’s always been debate about who ranks where in the set of singers of Tiff, Sun, Seo. So there’s already fighting with no fixed positions, imagine the chaos of there are no fixed positions including main, you might arguments where Seohyun might get more lines then Taeyeon in 1 song, is that evidence enough to say Seo is the main?
As for flourishing, yeah I agree being boxed in can hinder idols but if they truely have the skill and will then they can overcome their roles and expand their horizons. Seohyun was the weakest lead at debut but over time she had improved so drastically she was fighting for number 2 even with Jessica still around.
At the end of the day like i said fixed vs not fixed makes no difference as it currently is. It’s clear who the best are and there will always be fights less distinct clear cut rankings.
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But that’s still the same situation as before but this time without knowing before hand.
I’ll use SNSD example since I’m most familiar with theM.
If there’s no official positions and on songs taeyeon gets most lines then clearly she is the main. SM deliberately gives her the most lines for a reason. Fans aren’t clever for figuring out she has the skills for main, it’s SM who gave main level responsibility. So essentially she’s already be declared the main vocal regardless if SM didn’t put out a CV listing her as the “main vocal”. Same with Hyoyeon, if she gets a dance break or leads parts then it’s deliberate decision by sm to already make her the main dancer. Or if yoona is continually the one praised for looks and gets most cfs then of course she is the visual.
So then we’re back to square 1. If sm tells us who is main then that’s that it’s final but they don’t then we simply look at the observable evidence and draw our own conclusions especially if they’re very obvious. Basically There’s no difference with positions vs without.
The only Situations where they would be debate would be for positions such as leads or subs. Is Tiffany better than Seohyun? Is Sunny better than both? Those positions have no official rank (lead vocal number 1, lead vocal 2 etc) so there’s a lot more room for interpretation. With no designations since the days of Jessica being the definitive number 2 there’s always been debate about who ranks where in the set of singers of Tiff, Sun, Seo. So there’s already fighting with no fixed positions, imagine the chaos of there are no fixed positions including main, you might arguments where Seohyun might get more lines then Taeyeon in 1 song, is that evidence enough to say Seo is the main?
As for flourishing, yeah I agree being boxed in can hinder idols but if they truely have the skill and will then they can overcome their roles and expand their horizons. Seohyun was the weakest lead at debut but over time she had improved so drastically she was fighting for number 2 even with Jessica still around.
At the end of the day like i said fixed vs not fixed makes no difference as it currently is. It’s clear who the best are and there will always be fights less distinct clear cut rankings.
you didn’t get my entire post lol. I never said having no positions will prevent arguments about who’s more talented, i only said it will discourage arguments about perceived unfairness treatment of the members, examples of which i’d already given above.
In your example about snsd, if seohyun did get more lines than taeyeon and there was no fixed position, taeyeon stans would only argue that taeyeon’s the better singer and should get more lines without dragging in the whole “taeyeon is the main vocalist why doesn’t she get the most lines if that’s her official position given by sm?? That’s unfair!!” discourse if there actually was a fixed position. The talent debate will persist in either case, whereas the main position debate will exist in only one, and any scenario that lessens the irrational hate an idol might receive in any capacity no matter how little is a win in my book. Likewise, for example if jessica was given the lead vocalist role while tiffany didn’t, that’d just give more incentive for tiffany stans to argue it’s so unfair bc they think tiffany should be lead vocalist too and deserves equal lines with jessica. Again, there’ll always be debate about who’s more talented than who no matter what the company says is the “main” or “lead”, but without fixed positions the fighting will at least lose one layer of contempt and that’s better than nothing so
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I actually kind of like it and it feels fresh not to have the positions.
Even thought sometimes having fixed position can be a good thing, I feel like a lot of the times it lends to arguments online. Throughout the years, idols can develop some skills or grow in the areas that they weren't that skilled before, but it feels like if then they get more exposition in certain areas, the fans will argue that they shouldn't because they're not in a dancer/singer line. Maybe without the positions, this could happen just naturally. Or another idea would be updating the positions in every few years, but I know it's even less common.
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The groups you mentioned have obvious positions though, nothing has changed.
And even in third gen and before there were groups that never announced their position. This isn’t new in kpop.
Even without that people only call ningning and winter as vocalists in aespa. And it’s obvious that sm gave them that position. And if they start getting less vocal parts than Giselle their fans will 100% complain. Fans complaining doesn’t just involve position but also with the perceived talent of the members.
People will always complain if the member they perceive as being a better vocalist or rapper doesn’t get the parts they deserve. This just happens to coincide with the “official” positions.
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