Posts by Disevidence

Quote from CaraFIMIE

What impression do you get

I rarely see Yunjin mentioned in visual discussions, in the comparisons of the type of stars that get invites in Korea due to their Beauty (Karina, Miyeon, Wonyoung etc).

Even in her own group, I see most of the fans concentrate the visual stuff on Kazuha and Chaewon.

Your treating it as if i'm calling her ugly, no kpop idol is ugly, but she has never from all I've seen been treated as the "Korean Beauty Standard" of her group, both by LSF fans or Kpop stans, and by the general population in Korea.

Quote from number-one

Girlgroups

Fifty Fifty 267M

Blackpink 226M

Illit 195M

NewJeans 147M

Babymonster 132M

Gidle 95M

Twice 92M

aespa 88M

Le Sserafim 82M

IVE 59M

Kiss of life 54M

Meovv 40M

2ne1 25M

Itzy 23M

Davichi 21M

SNSD 20M

Red Velvel 15M

NMIXX 14M

StayC 12M

Momoland 12M

Gfriend 12M

Wonder Girls 11M

Izna 10M

Oh my Girl 9,2M

Kep1er 7.45M

Mamamoo 5,88M

IZ*ONE 5.11M

Dreamcatcher 3.09M

Everglow 2,55M

Loona 2.21M

Weeekly 2.07M

Wannabe kpop groups

Katsaye 108M

XG 14M

Niziu 6.84M

VCHA 824K

Boygroups

BTS 168M

Stray Kids 103M

Bigbang 65M

Treasure 50M

Enhypen 44M

Seventeen 38M

BOYNEXTDOOR 30M

EXO 26M

TXT 24M

Ateez 21M

Shinee 16M

Riize 16M

Day6 12M

Super Junior 9.26M

Solo

Rosé 958M

Jennie 162M

PSY 154M

G dragon 44M

IU 35M

Zico 24M

Bibi 19M

Taeyang 19M

Yena 15M

Tayeon 14M

Boa 8.63M

Chungha 7.74M

Sunmi 5.43M

Huyna 3.79M

Eunbi 1.87M

Display More

(G)I-DLE above Aespa and LSF.

Finally, some actual international stats that isn't just Spotify's distorted pay-to-play views.

Fate was never going to do big spotify numbers.

But it has much to do with playlisting and also halo effect of lead singles.

LSF have heavy playlisting (and discovery for their releases when they drop) which gives them much better streams of their singles, but it also means it gives a halo listening effect on the shuffle/queue to their other songs. I think one of their songs also had a small flurry of virality.

Aespa have also leant a bit more into the pay to play (playlisting/discovery), but not to the extent of hybe, but their use case is more simple - they have strong songs going well right now, and there's a halo effect.

Both Idle's and IVE's last releases were weak, particularly in west, and that diminishes their playlist count, but also just in general the halo effect from having songs on strong playlists or in global chart. You aren't as likely to either directly listen to IVE or Idle if you aren't listening to one of their songs to begin with, and/or have it on the queue as much or in the playlist as much.

Remains to be seen how their next songs do, but generally some of those numbers will actually rise once they drop a new song. Probably keep an eye on IVE's songs over the next few weeks to see if those numbers increase significantly.

TLDR - Yeah Idle and Ive last releases (Klaxon and Heya) weren't amazing on spotify, but it's also the lull of their cycle compared to Aespa, and Hybe have always been stronger on spotify and also quite significantly lean into it with the.. let's call them "tools" offered to labels by Spotify.

Quote from Owned_by_Irene

Huh Yunjin

She's a visual?

That's certainly not the impression I get.

Re: Karina. Deserves it? I don't really think Visuals deserve anything and wish the most talented members of groups were the ones that were the most popular, but that argument aside, I mean yeah, deserves it? I guess so? People have touched on before about "deserving". If she has the popularity then Q.E.D she deserves it.

There is one aspect of Karina that's both hard to discuss and from what I can see by reactions a very important part of why she's so popular that the other people mentioned do not have. It's certainly part of what has boosted her popularity, apart from her alignment with beauty standards.

Quote from foreveraespaaa

I forgot to add Starship, High up and Cube entertainment are all releasing their 5th gen gg as well 5th gen is going to be crazier than 4th

I wouldn't worry about Cube's group.

Look at how Lightsum did. Cube's internal creative teams (not Soyeon) are uniquely terrible in understanding the market, selecting songs and just generally having a pulse on relevant interests.

Cube's new GG will most likely, up until their debut, have low sales and low popularity, which has been the case for every Cube girl group after 4minute. It'll all rely on the song.

Self producing idols generally have some level of control.

Soyeon for the first 3 years had to have her songs approved by Cube's upper management, and there were a few times she had to fight for her songs (Hann, and Dumdi Dumdi), but she's always in the end gotten her choice of TTs. The only time the b-sides were pushed back on was I Burn (ironically) but they were all approved in the end.

Post Tomboy she has the final call on all the songs.

For others though, it's different. Pentagon despite being self produced were given a Ryan Jhun song for their TT whilst Hui was in enlistment. They weren't happy about it either.

I think in most cases the label has the final say, but if the artists are unhappy enough and have some sort of leverage or seniority then they can push back against certain songs, sometimes successfully and sometimes unsuccessfully.

Quote from Slayurfaves

my theory is that they prefer other writers to write the English lyrics for whatever reason

Blackpink have plenty of raps that have korean or are majority Korean.

I don't get this argument at all. Pretty Savage is mostly Korean. DDDD has lots of korean then english words to help rhyme (a lazy trick I dislike, but that's not under discussion here).

There's plenty of raps where they have been in Korean and still no credits from Jennie or Lisa. Again, I would let it pass by if people didnt' constantly insert them into conversations with artists who do. I've got no problem per se with idol rappers. But there's a reason there's a difference in the criticism to their bragging raps compared to Suga or TOP or Soyeon's bragging raps. I know you didn't do it originally, you weren't at fault for making the original comparison.

Quote from Slayurfaves

Jennie has some written credits in songs just not rap lyrics but there is a reason for it. Blackpink raps are in English (usually) and English is not their native language so they had a designated writer for it. I'm looking at you Bekuh? lol I think she left already lol

So? The point is it's still not them. Everytime people go about any idol they go "they didn't do X because of Y" and it's like... so you agree, they didn't do X? The reasons are immaterial to the point.

Rap Lyrics from their 2022 song (written by Teddy Park and Danny Chung) -

This the life of a vandal, masked up and I'm still in CELINE

Designer crimes or it wouldn't be me, ooh

Diamonds shining, drive in silence, I don't mind it, I'm riding

Flying private side by side with the pilot up in the sky

Name dropping a fashion label (and wearing designer clothes) and that they get to fly private, not written by them. Bragging about this sort of stuff and not even writing it? Yeah that rap is pretty poor. There's not a single line in the raps that is about what THEY do, what they have done, it's about what they HAVE, what they own, what privileges they have.

Soyeon rap (i tried to pick the most overt commercial song she did, which was the Dolce and Gabbana song she was on, to attempt to keep it fair about fashion label stuff) New Vision -

This is translated some parts.

Yuh, I know, I know art is not a competition

Yuh, I'll tell you the value of my work, reason

Among the same old it's a new colour, new vision

As if influenced by the whole universe

The subtle sense of the song is like aurora

I got a new wave, I'm coarse & dolce

Grab and swallow it all

I'm tipsy you can't catch me

Let it all be smashed

I got a tongue like a chain

Idle is my masterpiece

Even if I spit out anything

This is my vision, ayy

Her lyrics, on a fashion label song, she spends the time bragging about HER, and what she does and what she is doing, not what she owns, or what privileges she has.

See the difference?

The raps are cringy because they're having 30 year old male write about how they (Jennie and Lisa) are cool girls and shit. Beyond parody.

And I'd be fine with honestly and let it sail by if the OP didn't put people who, according to you nebulously and vaguely "helped with input into concepts" compared to people like RM, G-Dragon, Suga and Soyeon in the same sentence.

Soyeon who writes every title track, develops and leads every creative concept for the comeback, whose literally the Executive producer of her Group is compared in the same way to Jennie and Lisa, who have sometimes said they wanted this or that? Please.

I don't think i even need to explain RM/Suga or G-dragon. T.O.P who was an underground rapper and always wrote his own stuff too.

I don't even dislike Lisa and Jennie, but it just is the height of ludicrous suspension of disbelief to put Jennie and Lisa alongside all those other rappers in anyway, shape or form, about the topic at hand.

Bragging raps are fine, but have at least even an ounce of credibility in your bragging rap.

Mantra is at least a foot in the direction.

I think they will. They've gone back to their I am sound, picked a far easier window to get #1, even though I think they've lost a bit of their lustre, I imagine they'll still get #1 with this. Circumstances lined up better for them this time.

Quote from superyeah

This is my theory on why the rappers of groups seem to get the most hate. Examples: Jennie, Lisa, RM, Suga, G-Dragon, T.O.P, Soyeon

If your going to brag in your rap at least be the one to fucking write it.

How you thought it was a good idea to put Jennie and Lisa with the rest of those rappers is beyond me.

Jennie and Lisa's raps in Blackpink generally fit the style of "I'm rich and wear fashion labels" , whilst not writing the damn rap , and to me that's completely different (and far cringier) then stuff like Suga and RM where they brag about their personal achievements, or Soyeon bragging about her group etc. Not saying sometimes Suga and Soyeon have not bragged about being rich, but it wasn't all the time, and more importantly, they wrote their own lyrics.

How on earth can you brag with something written by someone else is beyond me entirely.

Just because they all brag doesn't mean all are treated equally, because the way they brag is very different.

Quote from ISaidISaid

It’s more of a younger kpop fan thing or a male GG stan thing.

Nah it isn't. There were success stans 15 years ago just like their are today.

The only people who don't care about the charts or success are the stans of already privileged groups, like yourself being a big 3 stan. You dont' care how your group goes because success is guaranteed, so why would you care.

Anyone who always brags about "i don't care about any of that" almost universally is some big 4 BG stan. Congrats, you don't care because your group never had to worry in the first place. There was never any danger of their career being impacted. They don't have to fight for songs, for releases, for Osts, for CFs - it's handed to them purely because of their label.

I remember early BTS stans chart watching and metric watching, because they knew that was the way for their group to have the success they cared about, to continue to have careers, to hear the music from their idols that they do today. Meanwhile EXO fans were almost arrogant in their apathy, because why would they care as much? It was pre-ordained. It's the anointed expectation vs the stans who want more for their groups and for what they can listen to.

I'm an Idle fan. Tomboy popping off to me was amazing because it was literally their make or break song, and opened the door to the girls having much bigger careers, which in turn meant much more music from them for me. Their success was a great outcome for me as a listener of the group. So yeah, I cared about it's success quite a fair bit, because I gave a shit about my idols, and because I knew it meant I could get much more music from them.

Quote from CaraFIMIE

It IS possible to have a honest and civilized discussion about talent in kpop if you do it without attacking a specific group. Wanna bet?

Of course it is. But there are groups with far less talent commensurate to their succcess then others, and vice versa, there are some wildly talented groups paid dust (and im not talking about success, i mean just even in the conversation).

Ignoring groups, let's talk generally -

I'll start with the easiest bugbear - someone sticking to choreo doesn't make them a good performer. Groups that focus on short sharp choreo get universally lauded as some sort of powerhouse performers, when there's very little talent or performance required, just practice and well designed choreo.

Someone being able to do the choreo is the expected behaviour. If a group just does a whole routine of choreo with no stagework, audience interaction, stagecraft and often with AR or mostly AR - that's not a strong performer, that's the bare minimum.

The glazing almost universally for "dance" based groups as "strong performers" is wildly out of control. They aren't talented. They aren't incredible performers. They are average and expected idols doing what's expected of them.

That's where the honest conversation starts. Your faves (and my faves) are not all that talented. There are incredibly few idols who live up to any sort of talented moniker.

Quote from bbgc

Barely a few songs over the years make a mark, OMG's Dolphin, GIDLE's Fate, LSF's Bluebeard's wife (released the MV after few days)?

It annoys me to see these songs like this.

Dolphin and Fate were top 10/top 5 in Korea before any "special clip" was released. Fate was 3rd in Melon and IIRC Dolphin was 5th on Melon when it's specical clip was released.

LSF's Bluebeard was 101 on Melon when it's MV (an actual mv) was released.

Bluebeard was just another single, it wasn't a viral b-side like Dolphin or Fate.

Quote from Yama-Chan

Meanwhile, users who actually attack the idols themselves, crap on their music and talents, and dedicate way too much energy to dragging artists nobody forces them to listen to don't even get HALF the outrage as someone who simply says "your favs flopped on the charts."

If I said what i honestly thought about the talent level of some of the major kpop groups I'd be banned. I'm almost certain I'm not alone.

People talk about the charts here, including yourself, because that's a safe passage of discussion.

There's a level of toxic positivity censorship in almost all kpop spaces - and quite frankly it's probably a good thing in some ways, but that means having frank and honest discussions about the talent of any idols is not really a thing (or even about the music), more that fans just post about their faves and the strange detente continues.

Charts are easier to talk about because you won't be banned saying "x sold 500k instead of 800k", because it's just numbers you can easily point to. It's a universal point of discussion.

The people here who drag artists are basically doing kindergarten level stuff, because that's all that's allowed, and that's also why no-one cares.

Quote from SooYoung

"I sway" didn't even Surpass 1M sales on circle chart

It got 1m on Hanteo, which is the better and more accurate retail chart. Circle is a terrible chart for many reasons.

It was also a 4 track mini after their biggest selling album (2) which got 1.72m Hanteo sales, and Yuqi also sold 600k, and it was right on the cusp of the world tour. Was it expected to be less then (2)? Certainly. I said as much here on this forum well before it was announced.

Full albums always sell better then mini albums. I sway's sales are basically consistent with I feel sales.

They literally sold 2.7m as a group and all together 3.3m albums in one calendar year. Their previous biggest year was 2023 with 1.1m albums (I Feel)

Idle had their best selling year by far, 3 times any other year of sales. Again, because people seem to have memory lapses, they had an album that sold 1.72m in 2024, the year under discussion.

You guys consistently go to great lengths and pushback on disingenuous bullshit to defend your faves, then turn around with zero shame at the height of hypocrisy and use disingenuous nonsense to attack other groups.

Quote from alexS

it is accepted because of the word whole. Go figure

No.

It's literally only accepted because of how many times it's been misspelt.

Beginning to understand the pedantry of Québécois much more.

Quote from atropos

Gidle had massive downfall in 2024 if u r talking about overall. Except fate nothing did well and that's only korea

What?

Klaxon was number 2 for ages. It charted better then Armageddon!

Super Lady and Wife both were in the top 10 too. Idle had 5 songs in top 100 and Soyeon herself had her 6th.

Yuqi literally sold the most albums outside a BP soloist. They had their biggest world tour yet, and won their first major award daesang.

"Massive Downfall" you are a clownfish.

Quote from Tru-Multistan

that bothered me earlier, apparently this is an accepted spelling of the word. Learn something new everyday.

Nope.

Not going to let people mistake their way. I'll die on this hill (and other similar ones).

It's holistic only. It's from the Greek Holos. Anyone spelling it with a W should be shunned in public.

Fate by (G)I-DLE.

#1 Girl Group song on Melon for the Year. Sleeper Hit. Top 3 with no MV, no music shows. Organic, Farm Fresh, pesticide free, artisinal Success.

Idle dominated 2024.

Clear winners.