Hot Take: Most of you are success stans and more about the charts than the arts

Starting out with lies, I see

Honestly until mid 2024 I never ever cared about charts and didn’t even understand how those things worked, and just listened to my favourite songs and watched my favourite performances. When I fell in love with Aespa in 2023 I came across a lot of gg stans who were fighting with other fandoms about those charts.

With that I started understanding how kr and international charts work, but I never in my life started a fanwar with those charts, just started participating in those discussions about charts and that’s it.

Do I care about charts? Yes, I do, cuz if my faves like Aespa won’t be charting good I know they will be mistreated by SM and shelved.

But still I care about arts a lot more.

I would say 70% arts 30% charts currently.

Quote from Yama-Chan

It's impossible to be more about the arts than me

I'm just also about the charts

Everyone will pick "Arts" lmao.

If most kpop fans had the capability to be honest, especially about something that implicates them, then a lot of the notorious fan wars past and present would never have happened/be happening.

Quote from Yama-Chan

Nothing seems to incite the fury of the residents of this forum quite like questioning the chart and sales figures of your favorite groups. Trust me, I would know.

Yes, you most certainly would.

i would hope you would be a success stan, otherwise a 50 year old man stanning minors is just a pedophile

I care for art in a sense when my fave releases a good and cohesive album. I also love it when do they do stage performances like this

I can't deny I don't care about charts when I post about streams and numbers.

I didn't know about charts until I join twitter.

Quote from Disturbia

i would hope you would be a success stan, otherwise a 50 year old man stanning minors is just a pedophile

Disturbia, indeed.

I'm not a success stan, I just happen to only stan successful groups.

I've always kept an eye on charts for groups I stan just from following accounts on twitter and such but I started looking at them a lot more when getting into BABYMONSTER last year mostly because I find it interesting. I also wanted to develop some basic data analyst skills as a side quest and working with numbers you care about is good motivation.

I do think there is a sort of small feeling of satisfaction or disappointment depending on how your faves do, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me. Like of course I want my favorite groups to do well and it feels good to see them do well, but I'm not losing sleep if they don't.

apparently all my favs are successful kpop artists - so that does make me somewhat of a success stan

on other hand I rarely talk about the charts other than the need for "data, metrics criteria etc etc"

Can't be me when I'm been stanning Flop6 for year

I might in fact be failure stanning

Quote from Yama-Chan

Meanwhile, users who actually attack the idols themselves, crap on their music and talents, and dedicate way too much energy to dragging artists nobody forces them to listen to don't even get HALF the outrage as someone who simply says "your favs flopped on the charts."

If I said what i honestly thought about the talent level of some of the major kpop groups I'd be banned. I'm almost certain I'm not alone.

People talk about the charts here, including yourself, because that's a safe passage of discussion.

There's a level of toxic positivity censorship in almost all kpop spaces - and quite frankly it's probably a good thing in some ways, but that means having frank and honest discussions about the talent of any idols is not really a thing (or even about the music), more that fans just post about their faves and the strange detente continues.

Charts are easier to talk about because you won't be banned saying "x sold 500k instead of 800k", because it's just numbers you can easily point to. It's a universal point of discussion.

The people here who drag artists are basically doing kindergarten level stuff, because that's all that's allowed, and that's also why no-one cares.

Quote from Disevidence

There's a level of toxic positivity censorship in almost all kpop spaces - and quite frankly it's probably a good thing in some ways, but that means having frank and honest discussions about the talent of any idols is not really a thing (or even about the music), more that fans just post about their faves and the strange detente continues.

I'll challenge you with this.

It IS possible to have a honest and civilized discussion about talent in kpop if you do it without attacking a specific group. Wanna bet?

When I got into kpop 2014/15 I knew nothing about charts, big3, payola, etc etc, unfortunately my fave group back then was BB, a kpop legend, and then even though I got immersed in kpop, discovering everything from it and understanding about big3 I still didn't know about all these fanwars, then 2016 happened and BP debuted and I fell in love with them and unfortunately again I was stanning 2 legends what can I say? I chose the arts and the arts became valuable pieces

And as a kpop enthusiastic I listen to a looooot of kpop songs from nugus to successful.

And as a toxic kpop fan I fight for their numbers bc I'm intoxicated, it's a vicious cycle.

So I'm here for the arts while since 2021 not ignoring the charts bc i logged in akp, my biggest life mistake

It’s more of a younger kpop fan thing or a male GG stan thing.

You fight if you are a young adult into the current gen of kpop or you’re a male GG stan who moved on from older groups to newer groups.

These two categories of ppl make up most of the success/charts stan categories.

to this day I don't know which authority is actually the overarching one when it comes to sales and charting (nor do I want to, really)

Quote from CaraFIMIE

It IS possible to have a honest and civilized discussion about talent in kpop if you do it without attacking a specific group. Wanna bet?

Of course it is. But there are groups with far less talent commensurate to their succcess then others, and vice versa, there are some wildly talented groups paid dust (and im not talking about success, i mean just even in the conversation).

Ignoring groups, let's talk generally -

I'll start with the easiest bugbear - someone sticking to choreo doesn't make them a good performer. Groups that focus on short sharp choreo get universally lauded as some sort of powerhouse performers, when there's very little talent or performance required, just practice and well designed choreo.

Someone being able to do the choreo is the expected behaviour. If a group just does a whole routine of choreo with no stagework, audience interaction, stagecraft and often with AR or mostly AR - that's not a strong performer, that's the bare minimum.

The glazing almost universally for "dance" based groups as "strong performers" is wildly out of control. They aren't talented. They aren't incredible performers. They are average and expected idols doing what's expected of them.

That's where the honest conversation starts. Your faves (and my faves) are not all that talented. There are incredibly few idols who live up to any sort of talented moniker.

i care about charts mostly for the following reasons

1) so that my bias groups can continue to be supported well by company and fanbase (which could have some success stans).

2) to avoid them being dragged by other fanbase or anti. Though bragging right could be a part of that reason, maybe 10% of it.

and guys, Let's be real, there have been so many cases of a group being mistreated once they start to flop on chart. So charting well is important no matter how you see it.

Quote from ISaidISaid

It’s more of a younger kpop fan thing or a male GG stan thing.

Nah it isn't. There were success stans 15 years ago just like their are today.

The only people who don't care about the charts or success are the stans of already privileged groups, like yourself being a big 3 stan. You dont' care how your group goes because success is guaranteed, so why would you care.

Anyone who always brags about "i don't care about any of that" almost universally is some big 4 BG stan. Congrats, you don't care because your group never had to worry in the first place. There was never any danger of their career being impacted. They don't have to fight for songs, for releases, for Osts, for CFs - it's handed to them purely because of their label.

I remember early BTS stans chart watching and metric watching, because they knew that was the way for their group to have the success they cared about, to continue to have careers, to hear the music from their idols that they do today. Meanwhile EXO fans were almost arrogant in their apathy, because why would they care as much? It was pre-ordained. It's the anointed expectation vs the stans who want more for their groups and for what they can listen to.

I'm an Idle fan. Tomboy popping off to me was amazing because it was literally their make or break song, and opened the door to the girls having much bigger careers, which in turn meant much more music from them for me. Their success was a great outcome for me as a listener of the group. So yeah, I cared about it's success quite a fair bit, because I gave a shit about my idols, and because I knew it meant I could get much more music from them.

arts

but charts when it benefits my agenda

I care about the charts in that I want my group to do well and I'm proud of them when they do, but it's just an extension of my love for the arts. If they do flop (which they kinda did the last two comebacks, at least digitally), it still doesn't dampen my enthusiasm for the music and I have no desire to stan a new group.

I get art from multiple sources.

And sports from other sources.

Only Kpop is the combination of both.

It is art, but fan behaviour is like that of sports fans.

And the basis for comparing, fighting over is the scorecard, which in case of Kpop are the charts

If I am just into the arts, why would I bother be in places like AKP?

Arts is just the excuse. Charts are what makes Kpop fans into toxic obsessed jerks, rivalling the football hooligans and such

Sure I enjoy music from Kpop, as I do from Bollywood, opera, Guoyue etc , but they don't have the chart driven fandom craziness, to the extent Kpop has.

I also enjoy those who don't do well on Charts like Sejeong or k-music like Lee Jinah, Sohyang, Song Sohee etc

That's the arts part.

Quote from Yama-Chan

I spent a full year on OH posting almost exclusively in the Official Mamamoo thread before eventually venturing out and entering the girl group wars.

Before then, I was entirely about the arts, and it was just good vibes with MooMoos.

It's possible to be active in these spaces without caring at all about charts.

That's not a common space like APK or X, but dedicated to one act.

Not the same.

In the commons of Kpop, there is no escaping the Chart-Sports, and no point being there.

Charts and arts almost always go hand in hand. Obviously, if there's no payola involved.

Quote from Yama-Chan

That's not remotely true at all, and you need to have at least some data to support that.

I witnessed chart wars on OH for years, and I know for a fact most of those users weren't men.

I didn’t say it was “only men”

Basically people whose first group is active AND male GG Stan’s.

Quote from Yama-Chan

I ventured out infrequently to make Mamamoo praise threads that had nothing to do with the charts. Just their talents and personalities and their bond

I'm not a good example currently, but it is possible to engage in these communities and not get involved in fanwars over charts. Just look at superyeah

Sure, but what's the point?

Like going to a race course and talking about veterinary science ..

Related, but pointless.

There are better places to talk music.

I celebrate successes, as I am pleased for the groups I am a fan of receiving some sort of recompense or recognition for their hard work… but any kind of desire for success or recognition has no influence in what I listen to. I only ever listen to or follow what vibes with me.

You don’t stan Purple Kiss and have them as your main 4th generation girl group out of all their contemporaries when you are all about charts.