I'll never understand people who are pro-company instead of pro-artist, even when it comes to their favs

    Make it make sense to me, someone.


    I once thought it was the side effect of equating idols with the companies they work for and being naive enough to believe any criticism against the label is also a criticism against the idol, but after this weekend, and seeing way too many ARMY attacking Jungkook, I think some people are actually company stans.


    It's sad really. Nobody should be more sympathetic to the idols, the people, performing and sometimes even producing the music we love, yet so many fans are so ready to bury idols for the companies who work them like pack animals and have been known to treat them even worse than pack animals outside of their schedules.


    You know what, it's not just sad; it's disappointing. And when you attempt to have a discourse about this, especially with company stans, it ends up devolving into a competition about whose idols won gold in the Suffering Olympics, as if the prestige of being the most poorly treated idol is a badge of honor.


    :meme-disappointed:

  • AllKill VIP

    I've thought about it before. I think it has to do with the dehumanizing nature of discussions where fans reduce K-pop artists to merely streaming numbers, charts, album sales, ticket sales, and other metrics. They don't see the artists as human beings, but weaponized pawns for bragging rights and fanwars. It actually makes sense that they would ride for the company, as their minds have become so corporate just like these companies are.


    They don't care that these idols worked hard and sacrificed so much just to get to this level. They don't care about the artistic endeavors. They don't care if a group disbands before fulfilling its true potential.


    If you can discuss the numbers while also genuinely appreciating these artists, by all means, do what you do. I'm not referring to you.


    There are definitely people who took the competitiveness too far and lost the genuine, raw appreciation they once had for K-pop and its artists.

  • AllKill VIP

    I can be a bit annoyed by fans always taking the idols sides in issues that I feel it's logical that the companies have some rights. One example is the fights of the rights of a groups name and similiar issues. Most groups are put together by the companies and the compnies that invest and create the groups, so just pure logic that the companies also should have the right to the names of the groups.


    But I guess it's normal for younger fans to not understand the business side of the thing and just think that their idols are the good ones and the companies are the evil.

    They absolutely do dehumanize the idols to an alarming degree, and it's so normalized within pockets of the community that people don't even realize they're doing it or how unhinged they sound those of us who do see idols as more than just pretty products for profit.


    The one party that should appreciate and celebrate the talent and artistry of idols is their fans, because if we don't, who the hell else will? But clearly, for a huge pocket of K-Pop fans, that's not the case.


    I will only ride for a company for as long as they do right by my favorite idols. When Mamamoo debuted and RBW found novel ways to promote them and spotlight their incredible talents, which eventually skyrocketed their popularity, I was effusive in my praise. When they failed to evolve their promotional strategies and adapt to the burgeoning importance of western K-Pop fans and the continued globalization of K-Pop, I and many MooMoos criticized them. When Hwasa and Wheein left the label for their solo promos, we didn't call them traitors for not renewing like Solar and Moonbyul, and sticking with the company that "made them".


    So it is jarring to see so many people side with a company over the actual idols.

  • AllKill VIP

    Idk man...maybe they have invested in stocks or maybe if you spend thousands and thousands on expensive merch/albums/lotteries and other bs at some point you might just start stanning the company just because....lol ya know 😭. Otherwise i cant see why anyone would side with a corporate over idols who are screaming on top of their lungs that they are getting mistreated.


    It's most striking when it comes to SME. Idols are locked in slave contracts and you still have people defending the company and trashing the artist for asking for bare minimum, it can't get any worse than that.

  • AllKill VIP

    I don't know, man. Sometimes I think how, for many of them, It's not even about the Company itself, but about how they treat some things as a battle of egos.


    I still remember when Belift dropped that video 'proving' how actually It was NewJeans that could be copying the rest of the industry and mentioned a lot of K-pop groups. Not even a single moment most of them they defended this PR nightmare, but they also didn't criticize said video for obviously sexualizing young girls and accusing them to have concept to fullfill adults' fantasies. Their biggest concern was their ego and they simply didn't accept to not come out on top of the narrative, since they already chose their side and will die on this hill.


    I see the recent situation similar. They think a person they admire having a different perspective to be an embarrassement. They know people will make fun of them and hurt their ego. That's why they will blindly even not respecting their artists' position.

    Quote from superyeah

    Obligatory disclaimer: My reply was about many K-pop fans in general, no particular fandom or specific company stans.

    I want no part in whatever agenda you might be pushing. :pepe-cross:

    Disclaimer: I was a popular pick for being the next big HYBE company stan (exclusively for girl groups) and still will push this anti-company agenda!

    Quote from YamaChwan

    MHJ really came in with the clown and epic shut down right when I was about to reach peak HYBE GG Stan levels. It's a real tragic "what if" story :meme-grumpy-cat:

    MHJ: Not on my watch


    Worst part was Drew and thebadguy being right about it xD


    Honestly I would have preferred the yama being hybe gg stan route more than whatever timeline we are in rn. We would have suffered either way but I would have preferred the former suffering more :meme-sobbing:

    I truly could not give any less of a shit about the companies in kpop or any company in general. It's natural to tend towards certain companies if you listen to a lot of their groups music, I'm sure we all do to some extent. But am I going to go full tribalist defending YG on the internet because I like BP and BM? No.


    Showing empathy is easy and free and there are times where you need to toss aside whatever petty bullshit you have rattling around in your brain and be a human. Also fuck HYBE <3 .

  • AllKill VIP

    Thought of this Thread again when I saw this tweet. These people are living in a different universe!

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  • AllKill VIP

    You can be pro-company if they consistently churn out quality products.


    Anyway, you can apply a general pro-corporate or pro-worker mindset depending on your general framework. However, individual cases should always be examined for its particilar nuances. That's because individual cases can buck your general framework.


    Companies are made up of people, and they're aren't some abstract entity, so it's more of a case of balancing the powers and rights between two sets of individuals rather than an amorphous "company" and an artist. This company also has its own rights, just like any collective group of people does just like any individual does. The importance and difficulty is balancing the power and rights of these sides.


    In general, why people are more pro-company than pro-artist is difficult. You need to really know their political beliefs and frameworks. In this case, especially for K-pop where fans are likely to be teenagers, it's just fandom wars. Nothing strange if you reflect on your silly days as a child.

    Quote from Minazuki

    I don't know, man. Sometimes I think how, for many of them, It's not even about the Company itself, but about how they treat some things as a battle of egos.

    Someone on x also said they don't really like the idols. They just use them as an ego boost because of all idol's achievements.


    And I am not talking about army only, even tokkies at some level has done that. Especially after Nj went live, some tokkies believe they are manipulated/brainwashed do it rather than try to listen to the girls and all valid point they were made.

    Quote from Varenka

    In general, why people are more pro-company than pro-artist is difficult. You need to really know their political beliefs and frameworks. In this case, especially for K-pop where fans are likely to be teenagers, it's just fandom wars. Nothing strange if you reflect on your silly days as a child.

    Seolite is not a child. He's 40 something male.

    Quote from Varenka

    In this case, especially for K-pop where fans are likely to be teenagers, it's just fandom wars. Nothing strange if you reflect on your silly days as a child.

    Except these are not children but grown adults, many of whom are even older than the BTS members themselves. Writing them all off as silly children who lack the life experience and personal development to have a balanced perspective is just giving these sad individuals an out they don't deserve.

    Quote from ISaidISaid

    Kpop is a company first industry it’s not really surprising.

    You need to unpack this statement

    Quote from ISaidISaid

    It’s not any different for New Jeans fans who rallied so hard for MHJ. She’s not the idol, and yet people give her so much support. So you of all people shouldn’t be asking this question.

    No, it's not comparable at all. People rallied behind MHJ because the very existence of NewJeans, their identity, their sound and their happiness, was very dependent on the continued support of MHJ. I don't know why you're trying to equate this to blind support of a horrific company that has taken several, several measures to destroy the members and harm the value of their brand.


    When this dispute first happened, I did not support MHJ and waited for more facts to be revealed. On more than one occasion, I even said If HYBE can show they'll do right by MHJ, protect their staff and prioritize making sure NJ remain on their meteoric trajectory since their debut, I will support HYBE.


    And so I ask: What has HYBE done since then?


    Was it leaking their pre-debut footage from when they were minors, something the members said terrified them and made them anxious and panic over what HYBE could do next?


    Was it leaking their medical records to Dispatch?


    Was it threatening them in a 1.5 year hiatus?


    Was it releasing a ridiculous video rife with misinformation and claiming NewJeans' concept is to appeal to adult fantasies?


    Need I go on? HYBE has done nothing to earn my trust or respect, and if anything, made moves to do the exact opposite. And I was someone willing to be Team HYBE if they were genuine about having NJ's best interests in mind.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from Prongs

    Seolite is not a child. He's 40 something male.

    Quote from YamaChwan

    Except these are not children but grown adults, many of whom are even older than the BTS members themselves. Writing them all off as silly children who lack the life experience and personal development to have a balanced perspective is just giving these sad individuals an out they don't deserve.

    I'm not into the weeds on any particular e-name being shaded here. I refer to you back to my point about generalizing vs specifying.

    Quote from Varenka

    I'm not into the weeds on any particular e-name being shaded here. I refer to you back to my point about generalizing vs specifying.

    No, I'm specifying with significant intent to "weed out" the notorious bad actors who are defending a company even over their own favorite idols.


    I don't know why you're pretending this isn't happening and that these people clearly aren't minors. I don't think a 14 year old would say:


    "And just so you know, that the employee is not a millionaire, he is just a normal 9-5 office worker like the rest of us. Sometimes I also feel very frustrated with my boss, and I call him names because his behavior is causing me problem."


    There are literally hundreds of other comments just like this one.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from alexS

    ah shut up Yama

    Nobody is buying that bs

    I don't have to sell the truth; it's free. This is common knowledge even. Where were you during this era?


    Who promotes NewJeans more than me?

    Who promoted LSF more than me during their Perfect Night era?

    Who promoted ILLIT when this forum wasn't talking about them at all?


    That was all me. I also made a thread (that backfired horribly) defending ILLIT from people calling them NewJeans clones and polled the forums.


    And there is a user in this thread ISaidISaid who called me a company stan all the time back then.


    Huh?

    Quote from NmiXXSupremacist

    The only company i will Stan is My own. The rest can burn in hell, i don't care.

    That's the spirit. We should all aspire to be self-made.

    Quote from killingtime1934

    But u pro-ador....

    I'm pro NewJeans. Just like I'm pro Mamamoo. And I was pro 2NE1.


    I have bashed YG Entertainment countless times. I have criticized RBW countless times. And I've expressed my frustrations with how ADOR handled the roll-out of NJ's latest comebacks. Companies have never been infallible entities to me. I am on their ass the moment I think they're not doing their jobs well enough for my favorite idols.

  • AllKill VIP

    If you can give some stronger evidence that a majority of these people aren't just youths crashing out, I can change my stance.

  • AllKill VIP


    Quote from Varenka

    If you can give some stronger evidence that a majority of these people aren't just youths crashing out, I can change my stance.


    what she said

    These comments can't be real. I know they are, but holy...


    "The Hybe employees are the ones dealing with this whole situation and they are allowed to rant and vent same way we do, they are human too it’s not like Hybe is made up of AI.

    Newjeans, jungkook etc don’t deserve more sympathy just cause they are idols. We are all human"

    Quote from Varenka

    If you can give some stronger evidence that a majority of these people aren't just youths crashing out, I can change my stance.

    Which reddit thread, where people are all experts on the employer/employee dynamic, office culture and Human Resources, would you like me to link? There were literal dozens before a Megathread was formed on each subreddit.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from YamaChwan

    Which reddit thread, where people are all experts on the employer/employee dynamic, office culture and Human Resources, would you like me to link? There were literal dozens before a Megathread was formed on each subreddit.

    You're not even talking about the English-speaking K-pop community? You're crashing out over some Reddit posts? Unless those comments have demographic information, then it's not going to be proof of what I actually asked.

    Fans are always blaming the companies when our faves fail to do as well as we hope.


    Is hard to see any fandoms put anything on their faves and are always saying it was the company that failed.



    So OP observation is very rare in kpop.

    Quote from alexS

    what she said

    Thread
    So we just not gonna talk about Le Sserafim taking over the NBA for a whole night?
    twitter.com/elsserafim/status/…w3JW8aEigHO98_pIeT3A&s=19

    My two worlds colliding in a way I've never seen and would've never predicted even 3 years ago

    The Laker Girls even performed to Antifragile

    twitter.com/agicheetah/status/…eFgdCLMh_h3S_oWszqPA&s=19

    And got a picture with freaking MAGIC JOHNSON

    twitter.com/lakersnewscom/stat…08C11egZQlhbPVkNts4w&s=19

    They're getting promoted not only by the Lakers but ESPN and the NBA itself.

    Wow.

    Now THAT'S how you pop off in the states

    Bonus Clips:

    LSF going to…
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    LE SSERAFIM just wrapped up the best week of U.S. promo a girl group has ever done
    People spend hours and hours of their lives as K-Pop fans roasting companies for how they fumbled promoting their groups in the states and wasted a golden opportunity for growth, so how about we give some flowers to LE SSERAFIM and their team for how they introduced them to the states this week?

    Arrive in New York and immediately start doing MTV appearances?

    x.com/Sserafimers/status/1718124527996293175?s=20


    Check.


    Fly to LA to be treated like royalty by the Los Angeles Lakers the the NBA itself?


    …
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    So is Perfect Night a bigger hit than Baddie?
    I'm stealing a stat from reddit, because I haven't learned where people get these numbers from yet.

    Most hours at #1 on Melon:

    Perfect Night — 673 **
    Baddie — 399

    **still charting at #1

    @BlackpinkHouse I really need to know your thoughts on this development ;judgingpepe:
    Yama-Chan

    I don't think a K-Pop label has ever had both the biggest boy group and girl group in the industry, right? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

    Thread
    Wait a second. Doesn't ILLIT's success utterly destroy the "pre-debut hype is everything" agenda?
    I apologize in advance to Babymonster fans, because I'm unfortunately going to have to use them to illustrate my point, because it works so well.

    Look at the trajectory of these two groups pre-debut and post debut

    ILLIT:

    • Reality show was not a big hit and it made people actually hate the lineup and created antis in fans of the eliminated contestants
    • Their socials saw very limited engagement for a group that was about to debut from the biggest label in K-Pop
    • Lost a member and nobody really cared for
    …
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    People really tried to push that ILLIT is flopping narrative when they're doing THIS?
    twitter.com/PopBase/status/177…a8JttweiSHpFdolJHzwQ&s=19

    pepe-ooh

    I was so confused by all the talk yesterday about their charting, like their debut hasn't been a huge hit and was a missed opportunity.

    Meanwhile I'm wondering if I'm about to become that which I hate as I watch them chase down some of NJ's Spotify records :pepe-shame:

    This shit is crazy. These girls might be real competition sooner than I expected ;judgingpepe:
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    Seeing the (re)debut teasers for Babymonster and ILLIT makes me think of only one thing
    Seeing all these new girl group teasers makes me really appreciate the boldness of NewJeans debuting out of nowhere, with literally zero teasers or promotion of any kind, and instantly took over the K-Pop World.

    I was in a rare (for me) K-Pop casual era, so I, like most people, wasn't even anticipating any group from MHJ. I was completely caught off guard by their sudden debut, and then I was even more shocked and surprised by how well it worked.

    For an industry completely predicated on hyping…
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    If ILLIT actually pull off getting their debut title track on the Billboard Hot 100, I will change my opinion on biggest debut in K-Pop history
    And bump BLACKPINK down to third biggest.

    As strong as their debut was, I couldn't ignore the historic accomplishment of DEBUTING in the Billboard Hot 100, Hybe payola and hype be damned.

    ILLIT would comfortably slide into the #2 spot for biggest debut ever, and NewJeans would still be sitting comfortably ahead. It's one thing to chart well and break records, but it's another to become the center of the K-Pop universe seemingly overnight and become a cultural reset and phenomenon so powerful that…
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    These are some impressive fanchants for a group that isn't even 2 weeks old yet
    youtube.com/watch?v=CbqqSpfrVKg

    Not bad :pepe-narrow-eyes:
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    Do you think ILLIT is a copycat of NewJeans?
    Yeah yeah. I can almost feel the collective groan when people read this thread title, but I just want some AKP data on where the board stands on the most divisive topic of the month (in all of K-Pop, not just here).

    If you think they are copycats, PLEASE give reasons why. Be explicit.

    Because I've listened to enough NewJeans to be in the top 0.1% of listeners and I simply DON'T HEAR IT. And I've played Magnetic A LOT.

    And when I see ILLIT mainly performing in a magical girl anime style fashion…
    Yama-Chan


    I trust this is good enough? I had more threads, but I got tired of looking.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from YamaChwan
    Thread
    So we just not gonna talk about Le Sserafim taking over the NBA for a whole night?
    twitter.com/elsserafim/status/…w3JW8aEigHO98_pIeT3A&s=19

    My two worlds colliding in a way I've never seen and would've never predicted even 3 years ago

    The Laker Girls even performed to Antifragile

    twitter.com/agicheetah/status/…eFgdCLMh_h3S_oWszqPA&s=19

    And got a picture with freaking MAGIC JOHNSON

    twitter.com/lakersnewscom/stat…08C11egZQlhbPVkNts4w&s=19

    They're getting promoted not only by the Lakers but ESPN and the NBA itself.

    Wow.

    Now THAT'S how you pop off in the states

    Bonus Clips:

    LSF going to…
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    LE SSERAFIM just wrapped up the best week of U.S. promo a girl group has ever done
    People spend hours and hours of their lives as K-Pop fans roasting companies for how they fumbled promoting their groups in the states and wasted a golden opportunity for growth, so how about we give some flowers to LE SSERAFIM and their team for how they introduced them to the states this week?

    Arrive in New York and immediately start doing MTV appearances?

    x.com/Sserafimers/status/1718124527996293175?s=20


    Check.


    Fly to LA to be treated like royalty by the Los Angeles Lakers the the NBA itself?


    …
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    So is Perfect Night a bigger hit than Baddie?
    I'm stealing a stat from reddit, because I haven't learned where people get these numbers from yet.

    Most hours at #1 on Melon:

    Perfect Night — 673 **
    Baddie — 399

    **still charting at #1

    @BlackpinkHouse I really need to know your thoughts on this development ;judgingpepe:
    Yama-Chan

    I don't think a K-Pop label has ever had both the biggest boy group and girl group in the industry, right? :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

    Thread
    Wait a second. Doesn't ILLIT's success utterly destroy the "pre-debut hype is everything" agenda?
    I apologize in advance to Babymonster fans, because I'm unfortunately going to have to use them to illustrate my point, because it works so well.

    Look at the trajectory of these two groups pre-debut and post debut

    ILLIT:

    • Reality show was not a big hit and it made people actually hate the lineup and created antis in fans of the eliminated contestants
    • Their socials saw very limited engagement for a group that was about to debut from the biggest label in K-Pop
    • Lost a member and nobody really cared for
    …
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    People really tried to push that ILLIT is flopping narrative when they're doing THIS?
    twitter.com/PopBase/status/177…a8JttweiSHpFdolJHzwQ&s=19

    pepe-ooh

    I was so confused by all the talk yesterday about their charting, like their debut hasn't been a huge hit and was a missed opportunity.

    Meanwhile I'm wondering if I'm about to become that which I hate as I watch them chase down some of NJ's Spotify records :pepe-shame:

    This shit is crazy. These girls might be real competition sooner than I expected ;judgingpepe:
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    Seeing the (re)debut teasers for Babymonster and ILLIT makes me think of only one thing
    Seeing all these new girl group teasers makes me really appreciate the boldness of NewJeans debuting out of nowhere, with literally zero teasers or promotion of any kind, and instantly took over the K-Pop World.

    I was in a rare (for me) K-Pop casual era, so I, like most people, wasn't even anticipating any group from MHJ. I was completely caught off guard by their sudden debut, and then I was even more shocked and surprised by how well it worked.

    For an industry completely predicated on hyping…
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    If ILLIT actually pull off getting their debut title track on the Billboard Hot 100, I will change my opinion on biggest debut in K-Pop history
    And bump BLACKPINK down to third biggest.

    As strong as their debut was, I couldn't ignore the historic accomplishment of DEBUTING in the Billboard Hot 100, Hybe payola and hype be damned.

    ILLIT would comfortably slide into the #2 spot for biggest debut ever, and NewJeans would still be sitting comfortably ahead. It's one thing to chart well and break records, but it's another to become the center of the K-Pop universe seemingly overnight and become a cultural reset and phenomenon so powerful that…
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    These are some impressive fanchants for a group that isn't even 2 weeks old yet
    youtube.com/watch?v=CbqqSpfrVKg

    Not bad :pepe-narrow-eyes:
    Yama-Chan
    Thread
    Do you think ILLIT is a copycat of NewJeans?
    Yeah yeah. I can almost feel the collective groan when people read this thread title, but I just want some AKP data on where the board stands on the most divisive topic of the month (in all of K-Pop, not just here).

    If you think they are copycats, PLEASE give reasons why. Be explicit.

    Because I've listened to enough NewJeans to be in the top 0.1% of listeners and I simply DON'T HEAR IT. And I've played Magnetic A LOT.

    And when I see ILLIT mainly performing in a magical girl anime style fashion…
    Yama-Chan


    I trust this is good enough?

    you are posting all that as IF I don't already know it?

    Mate, I have receipts that go back to ten years.

    That is not proving your point.


    Actually its not even beneficial to your point.

    It actually is.


    The reasoning behind is actually the same. For you MHJ is the placeholder for the company. You give the credit for your group to a larger entity and you feel without that entity your group will not be what they are. MHJ in your case and a company in others case. This is the basic reasoning behind the company first image of kpop.


    Now HYBE with their sub label system is what’s more interesting here lol. You have “ador” and “HYBE” and who to support between one company and the other. That’s the difference. Not really whether you support a company but which company you choose.


    People want to support the entity that resulted in their groups success. As superyeah rightly pointed out it is in part due to the obsession with charting as well.


    If you only cared about new jeans and not any company you would not really be pro min hee jin, sis has her own problems. And she’s always been that way right from her time at SM. You place so much of new jeans’s success on her just the way the others place their own groups success on the company. You’re all the same.


    Now do I personally feel HYBE is more at fault than MHJ? Yes I do. But I don’t really offer my support to MHJ and die on her hill. New jeans fans who die on the MHJ hill are just as much company Stan’s and the reasoning behind it is all the same as well.

  • AllKill VIP

    to be fair MHJ did help out Exo

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