Has BTS surpassed TVXQ in Japan?

different times

When THSK was at its peak, the physical sales of the idols were not the same as today, and the stream in Japan did not exist

Curiously, both groups "competed" with Arashi, although THSK had it much more difficult, when THSK gained fame in Japan, it coincided with the peak of Arashi (2007-2013), therefore they had a much more difficult rival. When BTS gained fame, Arashi was already a veteran "rival", well, in fact, they weren't even rivals for Arashi, because Arashi was a consolidated act

So I would say that THSK had it much more difficult than BTS, "competing" against Arashi at his peak is not little.

Mmmm you can’t compare the eras are different TVXQ was and is still a huge name in Japan and BTS specially after Dynamite is becoming a household name there and is literally the artist with the most streaming certifications in the country and breaking massive physical sales and streaming records.

times are different so it's hard to compare, but I would say yes given their digital and physical records. They have both a big fandom and gp attention and I expect their japanese numbers to maintain higher over the years cause DBSK was hurt by the 2009 split which also divided fans (tho TVXQ were still the top korean act in Japan at the time).

In terms of hit songs, I'd say yes. Physicals, too hard to compare.

I think so, yes they've existed in different eras but that would only be a problem if BTS dominated streaming while TVXQ had sales which is not the case right now.

More importantly, you can just compare the two artists to the artists in their own eras, BTS is currently competing for the n1 best selling album in japan, they have a good chance of being n1 in revenue on Oricon on the YE. correct me if I'm wrong but TVXQ was never doing that.

BTS and TVXQ are from different eras, TVXQ suffered it to compete with idol groups from Japan, about BTS nothing was expected from them but they were already making a name in the festivals of Japan with their Hip Hop concept. They both deserve the fame they have earned and neither is superimposed on the other because they are the pride of Korea.

Yes. They have album sales and now countless hits to go by with.

Quote from 3ne

I love BTS and I'm proud of their success, but this is kind of like asking if Bruno Mars has surpassed Michael Jackson.

When people in Japan today think of kpop, they'll think of BTS. When they think of TVXQ, they won't think of kpop, because TVXQ is a jpop act in Japan. Their legacy is literally insane. Nobody is coming close to touching it any time soon, no matter how many albums they sell.

Even former THSK members have created a legacy in Japan, Jaejoong is friends with Hyde, one of biggest japanese stars. Also many Japanese love him because jae even helped during some floods that occurred there (he literally went to the scene and helped).

Some people on the internet even suggested that he should marry a Japanese woman and live there, because he looks happier in Japan than in Korea.

Quote from 3ne

I love BTS and I'm proud of their success, but this is kind of like asking if Bruno Mars has surpassed Michael Jackson.

When people in Japan today think of kpop, they'll think of BTS. When they think of TVXQ, they won't think of kpop, because TVXQ is a jpop act in Japan. Their legacy is literally insane. Nobody is coming close to touching it any time soon, no matter how many albums they sell.

The Michael Jackson vs Bruno Mars comparison just doesn't apply, Michael Jackson was much bigger than Bruno Mars and he outsold him in every way.

Also shifting the discussion into "legacy" will always make things way more subjective and just becomes what your perception of whose role was more important in opening the door for kpop , the eternal "paved the way argument". Maybe I'm wrong but I think the question of OP is more about who's bigger(or who has a bigger peak so far) than about legacy, in which case you can't say BTS will never touch them no matter how many albums they sell because that's literally what this is about, streams/sales/etc.

Quote from auspop

different times

When THSK was at its peak, the physical sales of the idols were not the same as today, and the stream in Japan did not exist

Curiously, both groups "competed" with Arashi, although THSK had it much more difficult, when THSK gained fame in Japan, it coincided with the peak of Arashi (2007-2013), therefore they had a much more difficult rival. When BTS gained fame, Arashi was already a veteran "rival", well, in fact, they weren't even rivals for Arashi, because Arashi was a consolidated act

So I would say that THSK had it much more difficult than BTS, "competing" against Arashi at his peak is not little.

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THSK did not compete with Arashi, this is a ridiculous claim. Arashi was a million seller in 2009, THSK never even came close. And thats even not bringing up Arashi's overall level of fame and cultural relevance, which THSK did not have even a fraction of.

Anyway, BTS has clearly surpassed them (THSK, not Arashi obviously). Outsold in physicals, outsold in digitals, have an enourmous hit song with Dynamite while THSK never had any hits.

not easy to compare.

TVXQ, along with Boa, were the ones who made Kpop famous in Japan. They had a much more difficult start, because Kpop didn't have a good reputation there, and YouTube back then was not comparable to YouTube today.

And we all know how much YouTube helped Kpop.

If we talk about the success alone now, of course BTS has a bigger success. But both groups had completely different capabilities available to them. It would be like comparing BTS to the Beatles. Doesn't make sense in my opinion.

However, this does not change the fact that BTS is the most successful Kpop group of all time in Japan.

I just think the comparison is unfair.

This is a very good question because it is complicated, difficult to answer and has no wrong answer I will say.

Is this even an argument???

One had only sales and barely any significant digitals or hit songs there

Another has sales plus digitals. It’s pretty easy to tell who’s bigger.

I just feel it's really amazing of BTS to achieve all these heights in Japan without having to actively promote there or by Japanese songs.

Because of that I think both cases are different to compare. TVXQ is more like a Jpop group but BTS is viewed as a global group in Japan.

Quote from 3ne

I interpreted it as an all encompassing question since OP didn't specify. If we're talking just strictly who has a bigger peak, I'm not sure anyone but an industry expert could answer that question, because times have changed dramatically since TVXQ's peak.

Times have changed but the answer is still very clear, if we try to compare BTS to global artists from a decade + it's difficult to do because they might dominate different markets or older artists had an easier time selling physicals while this is the streaming era so BTS has the edge there.

Yet even with the japanese physical market that's weaker now compared to what it was in TVXQ's era BTS outsells them, and just like another user said they have Dynamite and ever since then their songs have become bigger and bigger with Butter shaping up to be another huge song.

If this was a situation where BTS had higher streams but their physical were a bit weaker than TVXQ, you could make the argument that it's hard to say, but right now it's not.

I think so.

Quote from 3ne

When they think of TVXQ, they won't think of kpop, because TVXQ is a jpop act in Japan.

I never understand why ppl often brought up this argument whenever they want to prove how big TVXQ were in Japan tbh. I always feel like Japanese ppl think 'TVXQ=Jpop' have a lot more to do with the way TVXQ portrayed themselves in Japan, rather than anything else. I mean if all SNSD members can speak Japanese fluently, and they always talk&sing in Japanese whenever they appear on Japan TV, Japanese ppl will most likely think that 'SNSD=Jpop' as well imo (esp if they do it before Kpop got popular). Doesn't necessarily mean they're the biggest act ever or something, It's just the image they carry.

Yes.

BTS slaying in both Digitals & physicals.

They now holds records in japan not for a kpop act but for a act. They have topped charts in competition with Japanese acts.

At this moment, their English, Japanese, Korean all 3 languages songs are in Billboard japan chart. It is not like they only cemented their status with only japanese songs but both with English & Korean songs. It alone says a lot.

Japan adopted BTS and always report proudly their achievements.

Quote from myaza

THSK did not compete with Arashi, this is a ridiculous claim. Arashi was a million seller in 2009, THSK never even came close. And thats even not bringing up Arashi's overall level of fame and cultural relevance, which THSK did not have even a fraction of.

Anyway, BTS has clearly surpassed them (THSK, not Arashi obviously). Outsold in physicals, outsold in digitals, have an enourmous hit song with Dynamite while THSK never had any hits.

Because they are different times, in 2008-2013 the physical sales of idols was different, at that time in Asia the only group that sold more than 500k was Arashi, today only in kpop you have 6 or 7 groups that sell that, also the streaming did not exist in Japan

Pffffffffffffffffff

Quote from auspop

Because they are different times, in 2008-2013 the physical sales of idols was different, at that time in Asia the only group that sold more than 500k was Arashi, today only in kpop you have 6 or 7 groups that sell that, also the streaming did not exist in Japan

You just shifted the discussion from Japan to all of Asia and included other kpop groups.

If you're trying to argue kpop groups have an easier time getting high sales GLOBALLY because of the spread of the Hallyu Wave that's an entirely different conversation that has no bearing on the question at hand.

there are no 6 or 7 kpop groups selling 500k in JAPAN, and even if there were you'd still be shifting the question from "who is/was bigger between BTS and TVXQ" to "is it easier now for kpop groups to succeed in Japan", again, not really what we're debating here.

We know for a fact that physical sales have gone down in japan so BTS does not have any advantage in sales compared to TVXQ, yet they're able to outsell.

Quote from auspop

Because they are different times, in 2008-2013 the physical sales of idols was different, at that time in Asia the only group that sold more than 500k was Arashi, today only in kpop you have 6 or 7 groups that sell that, also the streaming did not exist in Japan

The times were different and physicals sold MORE in Japan than now. Why are you comparing kpop global sales to Japanese sales? It doesnt follow the same trend.

TVXQ was never on Arashi's level and that's it. They werent competing in the top tier of Japanese artists. They never even made it to top 5 of best selling albums yearly and album sales was their strong point.

Quote from myaza

The times were different and physicals sold MORE in Japan than now. Why are you comparing kpop global sales to Japanese sales? It doesnt follow the same trend.

TVXQ was never on Arashi's level and that's it. They werent competing in the top tier of Japanese artists. They never even made it to top 5 of best selling albums yearly and album sales was their strong point.

Are we not gonna talk about those handshake/online events that BTS has been pulling off with their singles and albums? Take those out, and how many are BTS actually selling? Because TVXQ weren't adding events into any of their singles or albums in THEIR PRIME.

Also, Oricon didn't count "digital" sales like they are doing now into their yearly revenue. You do realize TVXQ was on the rise starting from 2008. TVXQ's Oricon revenue was 6.93 billion yen ($90 mil) in 2009 and 9.43 billion yen ($116 mil) in 2010. They were THIRD AND SECOND behind Arashi. And this is NOT INCLUDING DIGITAL SALES. Arashi does not do digital releases. So we wouldn't know how much TVXQ would have actually made, considering TVXQ does have MORE DIGITAL HITS THAN BTS.

Streaming was not in the picture back in TVXQ days, but there is something called the digital download plus chaku uta (ringtones) which was extremely popular. TVXQ was kicking ass in both. Let's talk about the digital certifications. Does BTS have a song that have a triple platinum certification in downloads? TVXQ does. Ever heard of that song called Share The World for idk an anime called One Piece? Check that out. Doushite kimi wo suki ni natte shimattandarou got double platinum. Stand By U, Keep Your Head Down all have platinum. ten other songs have gold certification. BTS only has one song that people would know which is dynamite and maybe butter. That's it lol. The songs I listed for TVXQ was generally known.

Before you say download is irrelevant, JPop acts that do produce hit songs and are relevant do get download certifications if it is PUBLICLY POPULAR like how BTS's Dynamite has platinum certification. It takes public interest to get them whereas streaming could be multiplied by the fans.

Quote from Arashiexque

Are we not gonna talk about those handshake events that BTS has been pulling off with their singles and albums? Take those out, and how many are BTS actually selling? Because TVXQ weren't adding events into any of their singles or albums in THEIR PRIME.

Also, Oricon didn't count "digital" sales like they are doing now into their yearly revenue. You do realize TVXQ was on the rise starting from 2008. TVXQ's Oricon revenue was 6.93 billion yen ($90 mil) in 2009 and 9.43 billion yen ($116 mil) in 2010. They were THIRD AND SECOND behind Arashi. And this is NOT INCLUDING DIGITAL SALES. Arashi does not do digital releases. So we wouldn't know how much TVXQ would have actually made, considering TVXQ does have MORE DIGITAL HITS THAN BTS.

Streaming was not in the picture back in TVXQ days, but there is something called the digital download. Let's talk about the digital certifications. Does BTS have a song that have a triple platinum certification in downloads? TVXQ does. Ever heard of that song called Share The World for idk an anime called One Piece? Check that out. Doushite kimi wo suki ni natte shimattandarou got double platinum. Stand By U, Keep Your Head Down all have platinum. ten other songs have gold certification. BTS only has one song that people would know which is dynamite and maybe butter. That's it lol. The songs I listed for TVXQ was generally known.

Before you say download is irrelevant, JPop acts that do produce hit songs and are relevant do get download certifications if it is PUBLICLY POPULAR like how BTS's Dynamite has platinum certification. It takes public interest to get them whereas streaming could be multiplied by the fans.

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TVXQ does not have any hits on the level of Dynamite or Butter. You cant compare downloads from 10 years ago to downloads today. And even with today's lower downloads level Dynamite is certified Platinum for downloads.

And talking about handshakes is ridiculous, considering the tactics 2nd gen kpop grouops in Japan, like "music cards" and other gimmicks which actually made Oricon to change their rules.

Quote from myaza

TVXQ does not have any hits on the level of Dynamite or Butter. You cant compare downloads from 10 years ago to downloads today. And even with today's lower downloads level Dynamite is certified Platinum for downloads.

And talking about handshakes is ridiculous, considering the tactics 2nd gen kpop grouops in Japan, like "music cards" and other gimmicks which actually made Oricon to change their rules.

Uh.... Share The World, Stand By U, Keep Your Head Down and Doushite are by far more popular and known than Dynamite lol. Take away 7-8 years. Will people still be singing Dynamite? Maybe? It's catchy song. I give you that. Share The World has triple platinum certification and Doushite has double.... It is a goddamn One Piece song lol. Actually, Share The World is the MOST SOLD One Piece song if you know wtf One Piece is....

Popular songs that are generally liked do get digital download certifications. You just admitted to it lol. You are not going to outright tell me the Japanese public listens to Film Out as a whole.

And please tell me when the heck did TVXQ do handshake events or sell music cards? (which they never did) except in 2007 (handshake event) when they were rookies? That was the only time lmfao. And mind explaining this mate? https://www.usbtsarmy.com/late…he-best-online-talk-event

I understand that you are trying, but when was the last time BTS was invited to Kohaku or if they received the best song selection award from Japan Record Awards?

Yeah like years ago. This is old news.

Quote from Arashiexque

I understand that you are trying, but when was the last time BTS was invited to Kohaku or if they received the best song selection award from Japan Record Awards?

BTS doesn't go to Kohaku by choice tho, they haven't attended any Music Station event after Music Station did them dirty back in 2018. It's been leaked that Kohaku has actually visited them in Korea personally multiple times but they never agree to it, the same way they never go on GAON again after the show did them dirty as well in 2017. + Kohaku has been getting less and less relevant each year, it doesn't have the same popularity it used to have.

They literally won "Special International Music Award" which is the highest award they can give a non Japanese act at this award show last year and even performed at the show (and this was considering the fact that they omitted multiple small categories like Best Album and only announced the big awards at the awardshow last year due to COVID and BTS still managed to win something) .

yes. old news. time to move one. damn. the revival. lmao.

Quote from essentialm

BTS doesn't go to Kohaku by choice tho, they haven't attended any Music Station event after Music Station did them dirty back in 2018. It's been leaked that Kohaku has actually visited them in Korea personally multiple times but they never agree to it, the same way they never go on GAON again after the show did them dirty as well in 2017. + Kohaku has been getting less and less relevant each year, it doesn't have the same popularity it used to have.

They literally won "Special International Music Award" which is the highest award they can give a non Japanese act at this award show last year and even performed at the show (and this was considering the fact that they omitted multiple categories like Best Album at the awardshow last year due to COVID and BTS still managed to win something) .

But that is all rumors. Don't you think? BTS has actually attended most of the other events like CDTV, best hit songs, FNS, etc. Why not Kohaku? Because they are suddenly don't want to? Music Station is Asahi. Kohaku is NHK.... different stations here.

Special International Award isn't the "highest" honor for an international artist.... It's not even a traditional award. It has been only made recently. And BTS aren't the only international artists.... TVXQ and BoA are also international artists lol. And all three have been releasing songs either translated into japanese or actual japanese songs for quite a few years.

Why is this thread revived?

wait a minute...

did someone just revive this out of pressedness that they need to prove something 1.5 months after?

Quote from Arashiexque

But that is all rumors. Don't you think? BTS has actually attended most of the other events like CDTV, best hit songs, FNS, etc. Why not Kohaku? Because they are suddenly don't want to? Music Station is Asahi. Kohaku is NHK.... different stations here.

Special International Award isn't the "highest" honor for an international artist.... It's not even a traditional award. It has been only made recently. And BTS aren't the only international artists.... TVXQ and BoA are also international artists lol. And all three have been releasing songs either translated into japanese or actual japanese songs for quite a few

i never denied any other artists winning it lmao I just answered your question that they did in fact win there. The fact that BOA and TVXQ who are considered the some of the biggest kpop artists during their peak in Japan won it and BTS wins it now just proves Armys point that they are biggest kpop artist atm.

Also are u seriously gonna say Music Station invites TXT, BlackPink, etc. But hasn't invited BTS since they cancelled their performance back in 2018 lol? TXT, BP, ENHYPEN, etc. Bigger than BTS now in Japan now? And BTS was invited back in 2017 to kohaku lol, when they were way less relevant in Japan than now, let's be a little bit logical here lol. + BTS has a history of not attending shows that wronged them, both Kohaku and Music Station cancelled their performance back in 2018 during their controversy and BTS hasn't attended either them despite going on multiple other bigger Japanese award shows and Japanese shows + like I said Kohaku is not as relevant as it used to be nowadays with rating going down each year

Quote from essentialm

i never denied any other artists winning it lmao I just answered your question that they did in fact win there. The fact that BOA and TVXQ who are considered the some of the biggest kpop artists during their peak in Japan won it and BTS wins it now just proves Armys point that they are biggest kpop artist atm.

Also are u seriously gonna say Music Station invites TXT, BlackPink, etc. But hasn't invited BTS since they cancelled their performance back in 2018 lol? TXT, BP, ENHYPEN, etc. Bigger than BTS now in Japan now? And BTS was invited back in 2017 to kohaku lol, when they were way less relevant in Japan than now, let's be a little bit logical here lol. + BTS has a history of not attending shows that wronged them, both Kohaku and Music Station cancelled their performance back in 2018 during their controversy and BTS hasn't attended either them despite going on multiple other bigger Japanese award shows and Japanese shows + like I said Kohaku is not as relevant as it used to be nowadays with rating going down each year

I asked if BTS won the "best song" award.... Not an award made up to please the fans. Like how Grammys is about to make the foreign act award just for BTS. Getting award through fan service isn't really the same as actually getting it by deserving it.

What does Music Station have to do with Kohaku which invites the most relevant artists annually? Music Station hasn't been difficult to get into lmfao. Unless we are talking pre-2009. After TVXQ made it in 2009, other acts started to get in quite easily. And I believe BTS did perform in Music Station although they weren't invited after that performance.

But the case still stands that Kohaku never officially said they WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to invite BTS, and that BTS acted like they had a choice lol. Where is this evidence lol. Bring me an article where for example, the producer of Kohaku says they tried to get BTS. Kohaku is still the MOST PRESTIGIOUS show. It doesn't matter if you think it sucks lol.

Quote from Arashiexque

I asked if BTS won the "best song" award.... Not an award made up to please the fans. Like how Grammys is about to make the foreign act award just for BTS. Getting award through fan service isn't really the same as actually getting it by deserving it.

What does Music Station have to do with Kohaku which invites the most relevant artists annually? Music Station hasn't been difficult to get into lmfao. Unless we are talking pre-2009. After TVXQ made it in 2009, other acts started to get in quite easily. And I believe BTS did perform in Music Station although they weren't invited after that performance.

But the case still stands that Kohaku never officially said they WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY to invite BTS, and that BTS acted like they had a choice lol. Where is this evidence lol. Bring me an article where for example, the producer of Kohaku says they tried to get BTS. Kohaku is still the MOST PRESTIGIOUS show. It doesn't matter if you think it sucks lol.

BTS doesnt attend Kouhaku because they have other events on the same night. They havent abandoned all other markets like TVXQ. And its funny to call Kouhaku some super elite event when junior Johnnys group get invited just by having an allocated lot. Its not about fame or prestigem its about connections with NHK.

Im also confused by your weird fetishization of that one award TVXQ was nominated for, when BTS took home 8 awards last year, in the categories they are eligible in? Their hits dont have the advatage of being in japanese, so they arent in "Japan" categories.

Also, can you change your username? Arashi doesnt deserve to have their name appropriated by some 2nd gen kpop stans.