[YamaEssay] Is it really easier to achieve success today or is that just cap?

I've been sitting on this K-Pop think piece for several weeks, pondering exactly how I could best present and represent my viewpoints without them getting diluted by petty fanwars. I remain skeptical that I can achieve that, but let's give this a shot.

A common sentiment I've seen shared from AKP to reddit to that cesspool, X, is that groups these days have it easy and their accomplishments aren't as impressive, because life was harder in previous generations.

As usual, a topic with nuance is immediately made into a binary "it's this or that" conversation. But I think it's fair to establish this baseline:

With the rapid expansion of K-Pop, thanks to the Hallyu Wave 2nd Gen ushered in, and the unimaginable success in the West 3rd generation achieved, 4th generation groups have reaped the benefits of K-Pop being listened to and consumed at unprecedented levels.

Okay, we have that out of the way and I hope it's clear I'm not invalidating what previous generations did. They're the reason I'm a K-Pop fan today; I wouldn't minimize them.

So what about the 4th generation and beyond is challenging? I think the first answer is the most obvious answer:

The competition and field has never been deeper. There is a literal surplus of groups to invest in, and there will almost always be a "shiny new group" almost every year.

In previous generations, nugu groups and companies could fight for their piece of the pie, and some overcame those odds, but today much bigger labels are debuting so many groups almost every year.

The other obvious difference between this generation and previous generations is that, at least globally, 3rd generation has way more longevity than their predecessors. By the time Twice and BlackPink debuted, 2NE1 and Wonder Girls were disbanded and SNSD were content to just be a legacy act that returns occasionally for big anniversaries.

And if you look at the poor 4th Gen boy groups, the shadow of BTS loomed large over literally their entire generation. It's not BTS's fault, but if you just look at the numbers, no 4th gen boy group had any sustained chart success anywhere close to the scale of their predecessors (and apparently even their successors with how 5th gen is starting).

The last reason, or at least the last I feel like presenting, is innovation. I hate to do this to them, but I'm going to use Babymonster as an example.

Their debut, objectively speaking, was a total flop. But ask yourself this: If they debuted in 2016, how would they have charted? I have a feeling it wouldn't be in MelOn's basement in the 500s like their most recent single. This debut destroyed the theory that top 4th Gen groups only hit their numbers thanks to hype, as BM had plenty of it.

And what was the main critique from both Korean and international fans?

"Typical YG production"

"Dated and stale song choice"

"Lacks creativity and impact"

You get the point. And it's not just YG. Just look at any conversation here about JYP girl groups.

The old formulas for success aren't yielding results like they used to, and creative/marketing teams can't coast any more.

Polarizing as they can be at times, look at how (G)I-DLE broke through with their bold concepts and themes.

Have you seen any LE SSERAFIM trailer? They're the best in the industry.

And NewJeans? SM only paid a consulting firm literal millions to understand why they're so successful.

The industry is moving at light speed compared to previous generations, and every label wants their cut, sometimes so much that it leads to disaster (50/50 and ATTRAKT).

But this concludes my latest YamaEssay. Give 4th generation groups their props, especially the ones who made history (mainly the girl groups sadly for the guys), because it was anything but easy.

This is the first of several think pieces I'll be typing up for the second half of this week

Quote from thebadguy

It will take me 1 hour to read it

It's not that long. thelazyguy appears again

Quote from kyte

harder to fight for attention in today's adhd world

Exactly

Quote from ellenote

An insightful read

I try. I have at least two other threads planned. One will be messy

Quote from icyruios

Success is subjective

It is easier to make money but it isn't easier to be the top.

I might be wrong about this

Back in 2nd gen music shows are the main source of promotion, so you actually see a lot of very small groups that manage to reach high or mid tier success that isn't from the Big 3. For example, Sistar was nugu when Starship was small, but they slowly because of the usual promotions on music shows and variety people know them and they started to become popular and become top tier and made what Starship is today. Bora even mentioned in an interview a month back they literally bought buildings for the company from Sistar's revenue. Other examples that manage to hit well would be Cube for example from BEAST/4minute. Some groups reached mid tier say Pledis and FNC. To be the top of the top though is still not easy.

3rd gen is harder. Competition is hard. For 2nd gen I can easily name top 10 GGs, even the placement may be debatable like a Big 3 group like miss A might not even be in top 7. 3rd gen it's literally only Big 3 + MMM + GG, slot in OMG after that. I don't think I need to explain for BGs, BTS was an anomaly. The unusual thing though, is that when we transition from 2nd to 3rd, 2nd gen groups did slowly disappear, but while we transition from 3rd to 4th, or maybe soon to be 5th, 3rd gen groups are doing better than ever in terms of revenue. There are many 3rd gen groups actually but you never see them being talked about.

For example, SVT is in their biggest year in 2023. EXO is doing relatively well. Day6 is now charting in Melon Daily top 30 with no new songs it's literally resugerence of old songs. Twice isn't charting well but is touring bigger than ever. Most 3rd gen groups are now focused on touring I think (I might be wrong) so revenue wise they are doing better than ever.

4th gen onwards and 5th to hit big I feel you have to be from the Big 4. Some anomalies would be say IVE and (G)I-DLE but they are from mid tier companies that were established since 2nd gen.

But, it seems to be possibly to still be relatively successful despite not being top. Seems like now a lot of 'nugu' groups are trying to capitalise of from survival shows. Everglow for example had 2 survival show members, and they aren't chart topping but they are touring, focusing on the international audience. I know I did say I think it is easier to make money but tbh now that I'm typing this I can't really think of a lot of examples from GGs, but I think BGs would be better because they just need a relatively good size fandom and they can survive from that. GGs don't have that fandom size to work with.

If you aren't from Big 4, it's probsbly impossible to hit big now I feel. Unless your music is from a well known producer. StayC isn't big but they are huge enough compared to many others, but if it wasn't for BEP I don't think they would be where they ate. This is also why Teddy's NGG is gaining buzz because people care about the producers.

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You're cooking something good when you bring up the way groups promote now compared to previous generations. Even the biggest groups in K-POP regularly appeared on variety shows, went to aIl the music shows, and as a result, those platforms were instrumental in giving exposure to other groups and idols, who could and did benefit from so many people tuning into those programs.

Today, how many current gen idols and groups are making their rounds on variety shows or appearing on every music show? Their companies would rather release their own carefully curated content on their own platforms, whether through YouTube, Weverse or other apps. Look at LSF. Their variety content is incredible, and it's all on their channel.

But it's not just them. Heck, even 3rd generation idols moved primarily to these platforms. Solar was the first to really breakthrough, when her YT channel blew up years ago, and recently Seulgi started her channel.

It's great for groups that are already popular, but it doesn't leave too many options for nugu groups to get exposure. And because it's so competitive now, all the exposure in the world, like Baemon, doesn't guarantee success.

Quote from selfmate

again I asked a simple question trying to get you to explain my friend and if you don't want to I'll leave it at that

What are you two talking about even?

Quote from icyruios

KPOP wasn't as big back then, music shows are the only method. Literally I knew of Sistar because I watch Music Bank on my TV. And variety. Also, a lot of 2nd gen idols use their groups as a platform to elevate their future acting career.

I feel a lot of 3rd and 4th gen idols are really all about the music and focus a lot on the group. Which is why even though you see 2nd gen groups might not have that level of longevity in the music industry, their names are well known in other industries because they have a stronger individual name brand.

Now groups want to do their own variety shows, but the limitation is that, it is limited to only fans. Non fans won't watch them, compared to 2nd gen non fans watch the variety shows and learn and know of the idols back then. Variety shows for 3rd gen onwards is more about fanbase retention instead of fanbase attraction

That is why I don't know what is with the new Treasure dating show nonsense sorry I might be wrong and you can probably quote this to eat me back in the future, but if they think this new dating thing will get them new fans then they might want to rethink that.

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Very true. I meant to say in my last response that the variety content idols release today are for their existing fans, not necessarily used to attract new fans--they do that with their music and promotions.

It's also a fair point mentioning how 3rd gen and 4th gen idols, at least girl group members, focused a lot less on acting than previous generation idols. But third generation was also when the "7 year curse" was broken along with the notion that idols must became actresses or become irrelevant after their first contract expires.

As for the Treasure show...It's as if YG has completely lost touch with their own demographics. Who on earth would want that? Not idol fans.

Quote from atropos

Even a lot of popular Korean variety shows are hosting on youtube like that that youngji show. Many varieties series r on Netflix. Chaewon did one and karina is doing one.

Very true.

And when LSF came to the U.S., I saw them making appearances on multiple Youtubers' channels.

Quote from atropos

Baemon hype destroyed by delays and YG needs to promote them on music shows and stuff. I feel they debuted because they had to. They wanted ahyeon and April when mini is released they'll promote at last.

There is a lot to dissect with regards to how YG has handled Baemon's debut. Unless you're Dreamcatcher, you only get one debut. There are no do-overs.

Quote from atropos

Lsf does a lot of variety content. On their yt channel, on others yt channel and even on TV. They already have quite a few korean variety gigs lined up for the comeback. Mix of youtube and tv

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But does a debut matter that much? Aespa didn't do well either compared to some of their 4th gen peers at debut but managed to be successful. On a lower level even stayc.

It's all contextual. Broadly, of course a group can survive an underwhelming debut. My favorite group of all time didn't set the world on fire statistically with their debut, but they still grinded their way to being a top group.

But for a YG girl group, explosive and industry changing debuts is kind of their thing, whether 2NE1 or BLACKPINK--their debut eras are iconic, and it says a lot about the competitive landscape of today's K-Pop, when a YG girl group makes little noise on the charts. That would actually be unfathomable in the previous two generations.

It just shows how challenging it actually is to distinguish yourself from the many other groups out there that people can choose to listen to. What worked in 3rd gen won't work anymore in 4th Gen, because what ABoredStan said about vitality and the battle for short attention spans is absolutely true

Quote from Rarami

"that's cap"

I am NOT that old. On God frfr

Quote from patrik-k

But the same way maybe it's harder to get to the top because it's more competion.

That's my point. And one underperformance is treated as if the group would flop and never recover, doomed for irrelevance. That phenomenon within K-Pop fandoms wasn't nearly as severe in previous generations (well except it did kind of happen for GFriend).

But all the top groups had songs that didn't peak as high as previous songs, or "flopped", only to release some of their biggest hits after

Also, one could argue that BECAUSE it's so easy to go viral and use social media to to spread your content, it is equally easy for your content to get lost in the endless stream of content all your competitors release on the same platforms.

Quote from patrik-k

Sure, but it's still better than trying to promote without social media or social media that was much smaller than today. Smaller companies have it easier today to promote new unknowed groups, just go to social media and try to spread the word. Best chance in the "old days" maybe was to a hit and get in on the radio playlist, not an easy thing.

Small companies just relied a lot more on variety shows and music shows.

I know as well as anyone, since I experienced the journey with Mamamoo from nugu to one of the top groups. Immortal Song 2 was instrumental in their surge in public recognition, and the fanbase continued to grow as they appeared on more programs and performed more incredible stages.

I think the challenging thing for small companies and groups nowadays is that there is what I mentioned earlier--there are so many groups debuting every year from all the big companies. Hybe and its sub labels might have four active girl groups by 2025. Maybe more.

During 3rd gen, only Red Velvet was truly active. For JYP, it was only Twice. For YG, it was only BlackPink. Big labels are taking the more is more approach, and there are only crumbs left for small labels.

Quote from OnceMidzy4ever

GIrl, you seriously think BM debut was a total flop? WIth their numbers in different platforms? Lol, what is the definition of "Total flop" to you?

Quote from killthisfenty

Your only point is that BM is flopping

Ridiculous even with two flops songs, BM had easier than a non big 4 because no matter what the GP will give them chance even if they chart at the bottom.

You both completely missed the point of using Babymonster as an example. Stop focusing on the tertiary details and lock on to the core of what I discussed, which is how even a group with tremendous hype and the influence of a label with tremendous pedigree did not have anywhere near the impact today that they likely would have a generation ago.