fx [experimental] > RV [experimental] > aespa [experimental] why is SM done with traditional GGs?

Teshub out here grilling us with the hard questions.

There isn't any infighting - anything more than other groups and circles of friends - within SNSD except for the hard break with Jessica. The remaining 8 still keep close, tight contact with eachother even till today, 16 years since their debut, and even with the busy schedules of many of them.

It's also not just the girl groups: NCT is experimental too and nowhere near a traditional boy group.

So it seems like SM people just like to experiment a lot with their groups.

It's also not just recently: SNSD and Super Junior debuting as large sized groups, and SNSD using the 'cute concept' were experimental too. Those happened in a time where the other big K-pop companies and groups weren't doing large groups or the cute concept at all: only after they saw SM were successful with it in Super Junior and SNSD did they pick it up after which large groups and cute concept usage became more common, even standard.

The only difference between 2nd gen times and 3rd gen/4th gen times is that SM had a higher effectiveness and success rate with their experimenting in 2nd gen times, and far less so in 3rd gen/4th gen times.

Because they don't want another girl group to be their #1 group so they make them experimental.

Quote from itiswhatitisss

There was nothing really traditional about SNSD but people want to make it seem that way because they found success with their formula. A large GG like them was rare to find in the KPOP at the time

I agree, SNSD very experimental group.

It’s kinda ironic you call fx, Aespa, RV experimental groups when the outlier is clearly SNSD. A 9 member group debuting at a time when 4-5 member ggs was the standard was unheard of and considered a gimmick/joke. They are structurally SM most experimental gg by far in their history. The fact that people now take 7, 8, 9 or more member ggs as normal/standard shows just how successful and impactful they are on the kpop industry.

Quote from harambelives

It’s kinda ironic you call fx, Aespa, RV experimental groups when the outlier is clearly SNSD. A 9 member group debuting at a time when 4-5 member ggs was the standard was unheard of and considered a gimmick/joke. They are structurally SM most experimental gg by far in their history. The fact that people now take 7, 8, 9 or more member ggs as standard shows just how successful and impactful they are on the kpop industry.

Not only that.

Super Junior with 13 members was highly experimental when most other bgs were far smaller sized.

SNSD using the cute/bright concept was also breaking with the standard back then.

Having an idol like Shindong who didn't exactly fit the idol weight standard was also very different.

Same for a tomboy like Amber in f(x), also not really seen in k-pop.

EXO with their starting dual group format, EXO-M and EXO-K, that got joined up later on was non-standard too.

Thinking back on it, 2nd gen might have been SM's most experimental phase, or at the least their most successfully experimental phase.

Every future SM group will be computer generated.

Quote from FoReveries

Not only that.

Super Junior with 13 members was highly experimental when most other bgs were far smaller sized.

SNSD using the cute/bright concept was also breaking with the standard back then.

Having an idol like Shindong who didn't exactly fit the idol weight standard was also very different.

Same for a tomboy like Amber in f(x), also not really seen in k-pop.

EXO with their starting dual group format, EXO-M and EXO-K, that got joined up later on was non-standard too.

Thinking back on it, 2nd gen might have been SM's most experimental phase, or at the least their most successfully experimental phase.

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Suju and SNSD wre also the first variety focused groups. Before then groups would go on whenever they were invited as guests and maybe start careers elsewhere like acting when their idol careers started to wane or die off completely.

Suju and SNSD meanwhile were built to be at the forefront right from debut. They had members or the full group regularly appear on shows, members would become permanent TV personalities (hosts, djs, fixed cast etc) and had careers outside the group such as acting while still active as idols. They basically set the landscape for idols to be everywhere in the entertainment biz not just in music. It's why idols were so popular during 2G, they were everywhere in the public face.

Unfortunately in the last era that has kinda died off as idols only really do music and the occasional TV show or drama. SNSD are THE gg when it comes to variety content, last year they they were still in demand on shows including having their very own despite being 15 years old. If you look at popular actresses from the 3rd gen there's maybe only Joy from RV who's done a fair bit of work over the years. Meanwhile in SNSD 4 actresses have long long history of dramas and movies, all 4 this year alone had a dozen projects and multiple awards between them.

Honestly I miss those days of seeing idols on shows like invincible youth or dance battle so you can find more idols to like or Stan instead of just decided by their music.

When it's successful, it's "trendsetting." When it's not successful, it's "experimental."

I have to agree with what most people said already -- SM has always put out experimental groups, either in terms of music or concept, and I think they will keep doing it.

SES
SNSD
F (x)

those three previous GG from SM
I like most of their discography and concept

what I realize BOA from Gen1 , Red Velvet and AESPA

look like their concept is girl crush dont like all of their song except Queendom

F(x) only girl crush I like from SM
Min Hee Jin still creative director of SM at that time

it show

 SM made a big mistake by letting Min Heejin go

Quote from harambelives

Honestly I miss those days of seeing idols on shows like invincible youth or dance battle so you can find more idols to like or Stan instead of just decided by their music.

Invincible Youth was 1 of the first Korean variety shows I watched when I went into a binge the first month I got to know K-pop. I loved those variety shows with all those idols in them, there were so many of them, and they were so entertaining! The many interactions between idols of different groups were great to watch and added so much to the fun of K-pop.

Quote from red11

When it's successful, it's "trendsetting." When it's not successful, it's "experimental."

Good point. That's maybe 1 way to define it, setting the trend is doing something experimental, different from what's mainstream at that moment and being successful with it.

Quote from godkingteshub

LOL. Singing "oppa oppa" is supposed to be experimental now? SNSD followed the same concept blueprint as other girl groups of their time. Going innocent > cute > sassy as they got older. Groups getting bigger was just the natural progression occurring in kpop and jpop at the time. The difference is SM was able to capitalize in Korea because they were already successful thanks to SES.

SNSD stood out as one of the most traditional GGs in contrast to their peers Wonder Girls and Kara.

Maybe you should have been clearer and more specific what your view and restricted use of the term 'experimental' is and examples why RV and f(x) are like that, but not SM's former groups. Because as you can see, many other people see it differently or interpret 'experimental' differently.

As for your other arguments, I thought we were talking K-pop here, also let's not dive into 'what ifs': the simple fact is that SM launched supersized groups when the rest of the K-pop scene so far mostly stuck to the usual smaller numbers for their groups.

As for the 'cute concept', Wonder Girls were doing retro and this is what some of the other few girl groups were doing around that time:

KARA - Break It (2007)

Jewelry - One More Time (2008)

Brown Eyed Girls (2008)

SeeYa - Love Greeting (2007)

And this was SNSD in that time period

SNSD - Girls' Generation (2007)

Kissing You (2008)

Baby Baby (2008)

After SNSD's success and popularity with the concept, especially after Gee's megasuccess, you saw more groups use the bright/cute concept. But before that, other concepts and styles were more in use by other girl groups and SNSD were the most prominent one using the cute concept in those early years.

Anyway, I'm starting to realise how futile this whole discussion is because it depends mostly on how someone interprets or uses the term 'experimental', and many people have different ways of looking at it.

So maybe you should first elaborate on what it is you find 'experimental' in f(x) and RV that you don't see in SM's other, previous groups

Quote from Michael-6

SES
SNSD
F (x)

those three previous GG from SM
I like most of their discography and concept

what I realize BOA from Gen1 , Red Velvet and AESPA

look like their concept is girl crush dont like all of their song except Queendom

F(x) only girl crush I like from SM
Min Hee Jin still creative director of SM at that time

it show

 SM made a big mistake by letting Min Heejin go

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I wouldn't exactly call RV's style 'girl crush' since it varies so much, but aside from that: didn't Min Hee Jin leave SM in 2019? At least, that's what the link you posted mentioned. Wasn't she involved with Red Velvet too then, not just f(x)?

And yeah, seeing how successful Min Heejin is, looks like SM lost a very valuable person, and HYBE made a good move getting her on board.

Quote from godkingteshub

LOLLLLLL. Rehashing something that was done a few years earlier isnt being "experimental"

True. But I don't consider anything done by f(x) or Red Velvet - or any other K-pop group or anything else in K-pop for that matter - as truly 'experimental', in the purest sense and meaning of the word 'experimental'.

However, the way how in K-pop the term 'experimental' by most K-pop fans is being used, which is straying away from the mainstream ways, doing something with music, styles or groups that the majority of other groups and companies are not doing or trying at the time, then yes, there's a lot more 'experimenting' or 'trying out different things' to acknowledge.

Not just with SM (although they tend to do stuff like that the most among the bigger companies), but also with other companies and across all gens.