Seeing that small companies are starting to release huge budgets to debut their artists, I'm worried about how long it will take to pay off the debt

This is what you get when you let your mom read the contract and not an attorney.

Yeah.

A lot of KPOP fans sounded the alarm about LOONA even before they debuted, but people really dgaf as long as the music is good lmao. Now, we see how that turned out. The girls were suffering, and when people tried to bring it up, people just said they were hating.

Same thing with Triple S. A lot of money being poured into them. If they don't take off, then we could be having this same conversation 6 years from now.

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

Yeah.

A lot of KPOP fans sounded the alarm about LOONA even before they debuted, but people really dgaf as long as the music is good lmao. Now, we see how that turned out. The girls were suffering, and when people tried to bring it up, people just said they were hating.

Same thing with Triple S. A lot of money being poured into them. If they don't take off, then we could be having this same conversation 6 years from now.

AGREED. SAW TITLE AND THOUGHT OF LOONA.

WATCHING THEM DEBUT ONE BY ONE, (I EVEN REMEMBER ANTICIPATING SINCE HEEJIN'S TEASER PHOTOS) I THOUGHT "WOW, LOTTA MONEY MUST'VE GONE INTO THIS"

I THOUGHT IT WOULD BALANCE ITSELF OUT AND THEN WOULD GET OUT OF DEBT WHEN THEY GOT MORE AND MORE FAMOUS.

I WAS HORRIBLY MISTAKEN.

hindsight is 20/20 though...

if for example a company spends a lot of money and the group blows up then one would say the company had EXCELLENT foresight and made the right decision

but conversely if the group failed then one would say it was an atrocious decision...

then for certain nugu/lesser known groups some fans will complain OMG the company failed to promote them properly - again isn't that just more hindsight - I'm sure every company (or their execs) debut a group thinking they'd be the next big thing but unfortunately sometimes people are just not interested

I've always said in regards to kpop contracts I have no issue with unfair terms if both parties were made aware of them - I do have an issue with transparency in that the terms should be clear and more so that the accounting of profits/losses etc should be transparent as well (ie. weekly/monthly accounts given to the idols showing revenue/expenses etc etc)

Quote from selfmate

hindsight is 20/20 though...

if for example a company spends a lot of money and the group blows up then one would say the company had EXCELLENT foresight and made the right decision

but conversely if the group failed then one would say it was an atrocious decision...

then for certain nugu/lesser known groups some fans will complain OMG the company failed to promote them properly - again isn't that just more hindsight - I'm sure every company (or their execs) debut a group thinking they'd be the next big thing but unfortunately sometimes people are just not interested

I've always said in regards to kpop contracts I have no issue with unfair terms if both parties were made aware of them - I do have an issue with transparency in that the terms should be clear and more so that the accounting of profits/losses etc should be transparent as well (ie. weekly/monthly accounts given to the idols showing revenue/expenses etc etc)

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Agreed. But the issue comes in when the company creates predatory contracts to not go bankrupt lmao.

Which of course, trainees should be more mindful before signing. However, I think that is the main issue versus groups not turning a profit and the company going bankrupt.

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

Agreed. But the issue comes in when the company creates predatory contracts to not go bankrupt lmao.

Which of course, trainees should be more mindful before signing. However, I think that is the main issue versus groups not turning a profit and the company going bankrupt.

then (with all due respect to the trainee/debutees) one shouldn't sign such contracts lol

(obviously I know how that sounds like since I'm older and more "wise" to signing things given my age and experience)

which is why I'd always advocate for transparency - ie. it should be written into the contract what happens should expenses > revenue (for let's say 2 quarters???) then the parties sit down to discuss potential strategic issues and maybe the option of disbandment

Quote from selfmate

then (with all due respect to the trainee/debutees) one shouldn't sign such contracts lol

(obviously I know how that sounds like since I'm older and more "wise" to signing things given my age and experience)

which is why I'd always advocate for transparency - ie. it should be written into the contract what happens should expenses > revenue (for let's say 2 quarters???) then the parties sit down to discuss potential strategic issues and maybe the option of disbandment

They shouldn't, but the company is the one doing something not legally sound. Not the artists.

The ones who can afford to have a lawyer review the contracts? Great on them, but not all people can afford it.

I spoke to a music lawyer, and she said she charged $1k+ to review a contract for a client. Most people don't have that kind of money. She might be an outlier for how expensive she is, but lawyers (especially good ones) aren't cheap. There's a reason the companies have to take legal responsibility for having artists sign these contracts.

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

They shouldn't, but the company is the one doing something not legally sound. Not the artists.

The ones who can afford to have a lawyer review the contracts? Great on them, but not all people can afford it.

I spoke to a music lawyer, and she said she charged $1k+ to review a contract for a client. Most people don't have that kind of money. She might be an outlier for how expensive she is, but lawyers (especially good ones) aren't cheap. There's a reason the companies have to take legal responsibility for having artists sign these contracts.

well unless such contracts contain illegal terms in which case the contract may be voided for illegality (obviously depends on the circumstances) but unfair/prohibitive terms aren't necessarily illegal they are just by their very nature unfair

I understand that but why are then kpop contracts different from other contracts? rental contracts? normal employment contracts? bank loans? car rentals/purchases? housing purchases? phone plans? they are all contracts that may contain some hidden terms or "unfair" clauses...sure the power parity is obviously in favour of the company as oppose to the individual but doesn't that mean that one should read it carefully and cover thy own ass by understanding it or if not getting professional assistance?

I mean one obviously wouldn't buy a house if one didn't understand the details of a contract why would one tie up (potentially >10 years of their employment life) in a contract that they don't understand?

it might sound harsh but if you can't afford a lawyer then you can't afford to sign whatever contract you're planning to sign and if you do sign a contract without understanding it then you bear the risk of it no?

this is the best debate i've read out here so far. both sides making good points

Quote from selfmate

well unless such contracts contain illegal terms in which case the contract may be voided for illegality (obviously depends on the circumstances) but unfair/prohibitive terms aren't necessarily illegal they are just by their very nature unfair

I understand that but why are then kpop contracts different from other contracts? rental contracts? normal employment contracts? bank loans? car rentals/purchases? housing purchases? phone plans? they are all contracts that may contain some hidden terms or "unfair" clauses...sure the power parity is obviously in favour of the company as oppose to the individual but doesn't that mean that one should read it carefully and cover thy own ass by understanding it or if not getting professional assistance?

I mean one obviously wouldn't buy a house if one didn't understand the details of a contract why would one tie up (potentially >10 years of their employment life) in a contract that they don't understand?

it might sound harsh but if you can't afford a lawyer then you can't afford to sign whatever contract you're planning to sign and if you do sign a contract without understanding it then you bear the risk of it no?

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What I'm discussing is not whether the artists should bear responsibility. I have agreed to your statements. However, the point here is that fans should be concerned.

And why should they be concerned? It's because the people they claim to be fans of are signing predatory contracts that are hurting them to fuel the companies that are taking advantage of them.

Whether they should "suck it up" or "bear the risk" is not what I am talking about, but fans should be mindful of what they may be supporting. May seem paradoxical since if you don't support groups like this since they may be ran by a predatory company, then you may be sealing their demise even fast. However, it's not even about whether a group is "successful" since LOONA sold almost 800k+ records and still ended up in this situation because in the end they joined a shitty company.

So my point is, fans should not turn a blind eye to where their support is going just to act surprised 6 years from now when what we all know is happening is revealed.

Of course, this is under the assumption the company is shit. Because a shit company will screw you whether you are a success or not. Just look at Lee Seung Gi.

bruh ladies code and loona have the same team ( label + videography + producer ) and loona and tripleS have the same creative director ( jaden jeong )

what are the odds?

thats why i have said on other thread there should be some regulation, these companies just gambling

at the same time its kpop fans refusal to support these groups and support already popular & rich groups, i dont understand whats the point

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

What I'm discussing is not whether the artists should bear responsibility. I have agreed to your statements. However, the point here is that fans should be concerned.

And why should they be concerned? It's because the people they claim to be fans of are signing predatory contracts that are hurting them to fuel the companies that are taking advantage of them.

Whether they should "suck it up" or "bear the risk" is not what I am talking about, but fans should be mindful of what they may be supporting. May seem paradoxical since if you don't support groups like this since they may be ran by a predatory company, then you may be sealing their demise even fast. However, it's not even about whether a group is "successful" since LOONA sold almost 800k+ records and still ended up in this situation because in the end they joined a shitty company.

So my point is, fans should not turn a blind eye to where their support is going just to act surprised 6 years from now when what we all know is happening is revealed.

Of course, this is under the assumption the company is shit. Because a shit company will screw you whether you are a success or not. Just look at Lee Seung Gi.

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sorry my bad I didn't get your (bolded) point previous but you make a good point

there are fans who maybe got into a group later and only realised what a disaster a company is - if you were a loona fan when did the first hints that something was amiss show?

Quote from jinaland

thats why i have said on other thread there should be some regulation, these companies just gambling

at the same time its kpop fans refusal to support these groups and support already popular & rich groups, i dont understand whats the point

what are some of the regulations you're thinking my friend?

Quote from selfmate

sorry my bad I didn't get your (bolded) point previous but you make a good point

there are fans who maybe got into a group later and only realised what a disaster a company is - if you were a loona fan when did the first hints that something was amiss show?

I probably didn't emphasize my main point when I 1st quoted you. My bad.

And as someone who followed LOONA, most people figured it out around the time that BBC announced they had spent billions of won before LOONA even officially debuted.

They spent like almost 8 million dollars before LOONA debuted. Which means they started out with WAY more debt than most groups.

Quote from selfmate

what are some of the regulations you're thinking my friend?

starting from better profit share

Quote from jinaland

thats why i have said on other thread there should be some regulation, these companies just gambling

at the same time its kpop fans refusal to support these groups and support already popular & rich groups, i dont understand whats the point

It won't matter. Most labour laws are ignored in Korea anyway, why would this one be any different? I'm not disagreeing that there should be some oversight, but I don't know any legislation that couldn't just be ignored by companies.

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

Yeah.

A lot of KPOP fans sounded the alarm about LOONA even before they debuted, but people really dgaf as long as the music is good lmao. Now, we see how that turned out. The girls were suffering, and when people tried to bring it up, people just said they were hating.

Same thing with Triple S. A lot of money being poured into them. If they don't take off, then we could be having this same conversation 6 years from now.

i really really hope the SSS girls make it out of there with profit whenever that happens

Jaden is greedy af. He has the vision but you're praying for your own downfall if you hire when you’re a small company. They don’t learn from Loona literally over 10m USD for their pre debut contents.

Quote from jinaland

starting from better profit share

like a min?

like obviously companies can choose to do higher but min of say 50/50??? is that what you were thinking?

Quote from Bananapple

Triples's fans sound just like Loona's fans back then. I was fighting their stans in reddit just because I said only big companies will able to pull off this type of concept that cost huge amounts of money without harming the members in the future.

i've noticed that both Loona and Triple S have very passionate reddit fandoms, but I dont find them elsewhere as much

Quote from KpopJop

i really really hope the SSS girls make it out of there with profit whenever that happens

I hope so too.

But, even Amber ended up working at a part time job before leaving SM, so who knows. The KPOP industry is no joke.

Quote from screamingbanshee

It won't matter. Most labour laws are ignored in Korea anyway, why would this one be any different? I'm not disagreeing that there should be some oversight, but I don't know any legislation that couldn't just be ignored by companies.

then maybe greater education - like all kpop trainees are required to undertake??

(in addition to the singing/dancing etc etc)

legal

accounting

financial

health (physical and mental)

etc etc

that way trainees and potential debutees are away of their rights and responsibilities prior to or post signing any contracts?

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

I probably didn't emphasize my main point when I 1st quoted you. My bad.

And as someone who followed LOONA, most people figured it out around the time that BBC announced they had spent billions of won before LOONA even officially debuted.

They spent like almost 8 million dollars before LOONA debuted. Which means they started out with WAY more debt than most groups.

it's all good mate - communication is hard enough in person let alone on the internet (without all the non-verbal components and only in English)

they announced that really early huh? and let me guess the majority of people were like yeah go BBC they are willing to invest in loona?

Quote from selfmate

then maybe greater education - like all kpop trainees are required to undertake??

(in addition to the singing/dancing etc etc)

legal

accounting

financial

health (physical and mental)

etc etc

that way trainees and potential debutees are away of their rights and responsibilities prior to or post signing any contracts?

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I don't have any issues with that, but I think I would add that all contracts must be evaluated by a neutral lawyer before any potential trainee signs a contract would be a good start. Any improvement upon the current system which exploits teenagers' ignorance is a good thing.

Quote from selfmate

it's all good mate - communication is hard enough in person let alone on the internet (without all the non-verbal components and only in English)

they announced that really early huh? and let me guess the majority of people were like yeah go BBC they are willing to invest in loona?

I can't remember exactly when they announced the exact number, but people figured it out early since each girl had a solo debut complete with high budget MVs.

At first, LOONA fans just kept saying that BBC was very wealthy, and LOONA was some kind of passion project for them for their 1st take on the music industry. They may have linked them with Kakao at some point for why they had so much disposable money.

Of course, we figured out later that was not the case.

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

I can't remember exactly when they announced the exact number, but people figured it out early since each girl had a solo debut complete with high budget MVs.

At first, LOONA fans just kept saying that BBC was very wealthy, and LOONA was some kind of passion project for them for their 1st take on the music industry. They may have linked them with Kakao at some point for why they had so much disposable money.

Of course, we figured out later that was not the case.

isnt tripleS similar with the whole NFT and big investor rumours?

Quote from KpopJop

isnt tripleS similar with the whole NFT and big investor rumours?

Maybe. I don't know.

I assume Triple S's company has some big investors given they are from an unknown company, have a huge amount of members, and have a very complicated system with high quality MVs and music tracks.

But, that's just my assumption based on circumstantial knowledge. I haven't heard anything concrete.

Quote from AMY-DUNNE

AGREED. SAW TITLE AND THOUGHT OF LOONA.

WATCHING THEM DEBUT ONE BY ONE, (I EVEN REMEMBER ANTICIPATING SINCE HEEJIN'S TEASER PHOTOS) I THOUGHT "WOW, LOTTA MONEY MUST'VE GONE INTO THIS"

I THOUGHT IT WOULD BALANCE ITSELF OUT AND THEN WOULD GET OUT OF DEBT WHEN THEY GOT MORE AND MORE FAMOUS.

I WAS HORRIBLY MISTAKEN.

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Actually, until the 8th member the music videos were filmed in a foreign country, but because money began to run out, the last 4 members (which include Chuu, who was the 10th) had cheaper music videos, something Chuu did not forget.

Quote from Bananapple

Triples's fans sound just like Loona's fans back then. I was fighting their stans in reddit just because I said only big companies will able to pull off this type of concept that cost huge amounts of money without harming the members in the future.

does TripleS even have such a big budget, they only have 1 MV released so far which while looks good and was well made, i don't see any big budget, it was mostly filmed on the street, inside a elevator and 1 single stage (it cost less to film on street than build in a studio)

Quote from unbannBLACPINK

bruh ladies code and loona have the same team ( label + videography + producer ) and loona and tripleS have the same creative director ( jaden jeong )

what are the odds?

And Jaden Jeong being a problematic factor in all 3.

Quote from Golden_Wishes

And Jaden Jeong being a problematic factor in all 3.

nah jaden is just smart

he has great ideas

and he also has tactics to convince rich people to go broke for his ideas

Quote from Bananapple

Having 24 members alone is already making the company spend a lot of money which is why I think they trying to adopt the paid voting system like 48 groups and nfts to bear the cost and try to make profits asap from there. Not to forget that the group is formed by Jaden Jeong, the mastermind behind Loona expensive debut, so basically he just doing the same thing with this group but this time he makes fans pay for who they want to see as subunits or soloists. Believe me, it is just Loona but with nfts as back up.

yes, i know a bit about the group but the difference is that they seam to spend more moderately compared with Loona, like 12 solo MVs with albums and EP sub units, some MVs were filmed outside the country, all before debut, i guess they learned a bit from loona deal, hopefully the triples girls have a better contract

Quote from unbannBLACPINK

nah jaden is just smart

he has great ideas

and he also has tactics to convince rich people to go broke for his ideas

that... doesn't seem ethical at all

Quote from SunnySun

yes, i know a bit about the group but the difference is that they seam to spend more moderately compared with Loona, like 12 solo MVs with albums and EP sub units, some MVs were filmed outside the country, all before debut, i guess they learned a bit from loona deal, hopefully the triples girls have a better contract

they are paying for the housing of all the members. rn they only have 10 and are still recruiting others. they already have another unit working on a release and the current 10 members will be releasing a debut. money is definitely being spent behind the scenes. we just aren't seeing it all yet.

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

Yeah.

A lot of KPOP fans sounded the alarm about LOONA even before they debuted, but people really dgaf as long as the music is good lmao. Now, we see how that turned out. The girls were suffering, and when people tried to bring it up, people just said they were hating.

Same thing with Triple S. A lot of money being poured into them. If they don't take off, then we could be having this same conversation 6 years from now.

I remember when I said sth along ine of how their big budget might bite them in the ass no less than 5 of their fans told me BBC's money is a grant from government and there will not be a debt system.

till this day idk where did they got that from

Quote from keyboardwarrior7

I can't remember exactly when they announced the exact number, but people figured it out early since each girl had a solo debut complete with high budget MVs.

At first, LOONA fans just kept saying that BBC was very wealthy, and LOONA was some kind of passion project for them for their 1st take on the music industry. They may have linked them with Kakao at some point for why they had so much disposable money.

Of course, we figured out later that was not the case.

Yeah I heard something like it was Jaden Jeong's passion project too