Posts by FoReveries
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I think vocal color/tone, since live singing has gone out of fashion anyway.
But I myself prefer vocal technique: I admire experts and top talents in their areas of expertise, whether that's about dancing, stage presence/expressiveness or singing, and live performances really can get me hyped up and fan of groups and artists that I wasn't before.
Usually it's of course a combination of shown talents that draws me in - but that edge in dance skills, physical/facial expressiveness on stage and/or vocal technique can be the finishing touch that brings it altogether to the next level.
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I'm giving this one to GD.
But Taeyeon has been doing (surprisingly) great as well, just not at GD's levels who's also a gifted composer/songwriter behind many of Bigbang's successes.
... thinking more on it, I can't think of other 2nd gen female artists as great as soloists as Taeyeon has been doing
IU of course, but she wasn't part of a group like GD and Taeyeon were.
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I guess I disagree?
I can think of many groups where the pre-debut imagery and vibe is different from the actual debut MV and styling and visuals. In most of those cases, it wasn't that big of a problem (although Lightsum and The Ark are probably groups where it did end up being a problem).
And Red Velvet had a confusing start with their Red vs Velvet conceptual differences, but that ended up alright in the end.
As for H2H, the debut MV and showcase performance reminded me of SNSD early years and Red Velvet, but then updated to current times with a bit of a New Jeans/IVE touch. And of course the SM typical vocal layering and adlibs.
Overall, not bad to start a debut with (to me).
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Hmm. Feels like netizen(s) trying to do a hit-and-run slander campaign again, like so many alleged 'bullying' controversies.
Kinda wondering whether SM have learnt and gotten more alert when it comes to slander campaigns to discredit their artists. In past times they were the slowest among Big 3 to react effectively to those. It took many years before they finally acted and resolved the bully/criminal slanders that had haunted Taeyong for years since even before his debut.
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Whoa, A Seulgi solo comeback. NOT what I expected to happen
... I found the trailer and once again I'm reminded how awesome (and jealousy inducing) Seulgi's physique elegance and way of moving is.
She really has that subtle control and elegance that great dancers have.
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go Seulgi! -
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I don't get the flop votes but I guess tastes simply differ. It was a bop to me.
I liked the overall vibe, it felt like a mix of SNSD and Red Velvet (esp. B-side RV) to me, but then updated into current times. The sound was a chill bop, I loved the flow. And the styling and visuals reached more into early SNSD era than other SM girl groups did with their debuts - but then with a classy, stylish elegance touch up.
It felt fitting for a debut in a post-NewJeans era - not like the cute hyper and girl crush flavors that dominated and influenced many groups in TWICE and Blackpink years, but more like what you would expect after NewJeans and IVE.
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I wasn't expecting Karina, an SM artist, to pop up in a GD MV, I'm dying to know how that came to be (did they know eachother before?).
But it's great to see, and she didn't look out of place, good chemistry for the short time both GD and Karina were dancing together.
Is Karina an It girl now in SK? Good to hear, she's doing better than I expected or that I remember. There was a time I'd have given both Winter and Karina a chance to grow into It girl popularity territority - although I was sceptical whether anyone could compete or beat Wonyoung as It girl
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I just watched both groups' debut MV's since they popped up in my recommendeds. It was kinda surprising and curious that both Starship and SM Entertainment let their groups debut at the same time (but then again, that has always been an SM thing, even overlapping their own groups' comebacks
).I was kinda curious if this thread would tell which group would have the bigger debut already, but I guess it's still too soon to be certain of that.
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I'm in denial that NMIXX is doing so poorly because of "O.O." I can admit that their music just doesn't seem to be the taste of the general public*** though.
Red Velvet, while not really at the level of Blackpink or Twice (at least in terms of sales), were still a top group, so I don't think it's a fair comparison. The issue is that JYPE is now doing relatively poorly with ITZY and NMIXX. They need to figure out what's going on there because it doesn't look like it's an NMIXX issue but a JYPE issue.
This. I was kinda wondering the same. It felt that JYPE made a great start with ITZY's debut year, but after that they somehow started missing the ball. I haven't really followed JYPE management closely, so no idea if there were changes internally, or if JYP started to run short of killer producers and songwriters.
But it did make me wonder.
JYP used to so good with songs for his groups and with branding. But not so much anymore in more recent years, is what it feels like.
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This again. So tiring, sometimes I feel like trying to discuss policies with MAGA extremists here, or Jessica Tarlov in Fox' The Five
I said 'ranked as high and in some cases even higher' and with the 'as high' doesn't mean 'at the exact ranking spot'.
As for the ones that ranked, specifically limiting this to Gallup popularity ranking:
Gallup 2017
#4 RV Irene
#6 Nayeon (TWICE)
#9 Tzuyu (TWICE)
#17 Dahyun (TWICE)
Gallup 2018
#4 RV Irene
#6 Nayeon (TWICE)
#13 Tzuyu (TWICE)
#15 RV Seulgi
#17 Sana (TWICE)
#20 Momo (TWICE)
Gallup 2019
#5 Nayeon (TWICE)
#6 RV Irene
#15 RV Seulgi
#16 Jeongyeon (TWICE)
#18 Sana (TWICE)
#20 RV Joy / Mina (TWICE)
RV's Irene hanging around in the Top 5/Top 10 regions and in 2017 and 2018 higher than all TWICE members.
Seulgi and Joy ranking in the lower Top10-20 Gallup rank regions like other ranking TWICE members, and in Seulgi's case as 2nd ranker higher than TWICE's 2nd ranker in 2019.
I find nothing wrong with describing this as 'Irene, Seulgi and Joy ranked as high and in some cases even higher than TWICE members'.
If you think that SM Entertainment is this supreme promotor and brand management company, far superior than JYPE or YGE, then I have this nice iglo hut for sale for you in the Sahara desert.
I never stated that JYPE and YGE managed TWICE and BP correctly or perfectly, only that they were better, more proficient and effective at promoting and brand managing than SM Entertainment.
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Not so sure if it's a lack of charisma for RV, since RV's members like Irene and Joy and Seulgi often ranked as high and in some cases even higher than BP and especially TWICE members in SK popularity listings in those 3rd gen years. Especially Irene.
I think it's more a matter of promotion and strategic choices that caused RV to fall behind BP and TWICE more than they needed to: SM just wasn't as effective, strong and impactful in their promotion and branding of RV as JYP and YG Entertainment were. SM often ignored opportunities that could've lifted RV up where as JYP and YG utilised their resources smarter and better. Additionally, SM's conscious choice to have RV have a concept path duality, Red vs Velvet, might have been more entertaining for fans, it also put up a higher threshold for other music fans.
NMIXXX seems to have a sortlike issue: yes, hit songs are absolutely important. But I also get the feeling that NMIXXX isn't promoted and hyped as smartly and strongly as some other girl groups are. Thinking about this, it almost seems like JYP have been flailing and failing with the management and promotion of their newer girl groups, both ITZY and NMIXXX.
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I appreciate your attempt to have a thoughtful dialogue about the topic instead of engaging im the usual tribalism and tangential buffoonery that typically details a good discussion.
I don't really disagree with much of what you've said thus far, and you would've gotten best answer if the user you quoted hadn't so succinctly explained why this brand reputation index has always been a complete joke and extremely unreliable tool at best.
What if someone who knows nothing about K-Pop browsed around and saw this list? It would absolutely destroy their initial perception of the most popular brands in the industry, as said list is just so completely divorced from reality.
And if a newbie couldn't reliably use this list to better inform themselves about the hierarchy of groups, it is worthless.
Yeah, for newbie K-pop fans it can be confusing. But for years long K-pop fans, they should be able to see the monthly brand rankings in context and take them with a grain of salt.
As for overall popularity and recognition, I still think that the Gallup chart and number of CF's are still the best indicators for when it's about South Korea, and google trends and streams when it's about internationally.
But that's a topic for another discussion and other discussion threads.
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This Brand Reputation Ranking thing has been discussed many times before, and you can also find some articles on AllKPop talking about the opacity and inconsistency of this ranking calculation.
This ranking comes from the Korean Business Research Institute. This is not an academic institution but a commercial company. They have never published the ranking metrics and weighting of their calculation, and outsiders have to pay when they want to know about it.
The ranking is divided into 4 categories: Participation Index, Media Index, Communication Index, Community Index and Recommendation Index. The data of the 4 categories actually come from SNS and social media. NewJeans members do not have personal social media accounts so their scores in this part are very low. But being inactive on social media has absolutely nothing to do with whether a brand will consider using artists to promote its products. Brand management doesn't care about these rankings, and data from their own internal market analysis will surely reflect the real situation more accurately.
Another part of the data comes from fans’ SNS mentions and blog posts. You will, therefore, see some artists with little news and relatively low-key style suddenly ranking high because their fans are more active in posting for the artist and discussing about her/him on SNS. But what does this have to do with the brand’s decision? not at all.
Let's take a look at the August Girl Group Member Brand Reputation Rankings:
Has anyone spotted Jung Eun Ji as the cover girl on the August fashion magazine cover or a large outdoor advertisement in August? Lisa just became a global ambassador of LV but she is ranked 15th, hoho. We've all seen Danielle's (NewJeans) Celine giant outdoor campaign, but she wasn't even in the top 30. The whole ranking is just a laughable farce.
Bunnies do not have to feel bad when you see NewJeans ranked at the bottom on this chart. Only people who don't understand the situation in Korea will be obsessed with this ranking. NewJeans has always been one of the KPOP girl groups with the highest attention among Korean people. Even after spending several hard months living under HYBE's criticism and attacks, things didn't change much.
Nice, thanks for the summarizing, most of it has been discussed multiple times before, but over the years you tend to forget how exactly the details were again.
As for the company not revealing their source metrics, a lot of companies don't do it = not even sure if Google trends does it, I think. But as long as it can be 'reverse engineered' up to a point and explained, the sources and source weighing not being transparant doesn't really need to be an issue.
There are some other points that are a problem, though: apparently, it's not so much the source data that is questionable but how it's interpreted, used and weighed by the Institute IS questionable. Especially if it's used as a metric for brand.
So the problem is that the name 'brand ranking' is misleading.
However, when it's viewed in the right context with the 4 category stats being publicized too, then the data can still be informative.
Just not in the way how many use it for conclusions.
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And that was my first SNSD comeback!
Mine too!
What I also liked of the SNSD members was they were so diverse, they were each such distinct characters with such different personalities yet with great chemistry and energy that radiated off them, no wonder that they did so phenomenal on tv shows and that the public knew them all by name.
And they had no trouble roasting eachother and also others, such a rare, unseen idol trait nowadays, but they did it in such a way that it was funny and didn't feel as offensive.
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Ok, this is absurd. I'm shocked, stunned frankly. Never in my wildest dreams would I have expected that Supernova will be the Aespa song that will be such a dominating chart & PAK queen, that it'll even have PAKs 3 months after release.
It wouldn't even have been in my top 5 of best guesses for Aespa songs.
Wow... speechless.
