The American Pop Scene vs K-POP

1st Official Post
  • AllKill VIP

    Tbh, I find K-pop MV's of a superior quality above American pop music MV's: in production value, creativity, appeal, they outmatch American MV's easily and over and over again.

    Heck, even American pop MV's of early '00s and before are superior to American pop MV's of the past years X/


    I also think that Americans aren't capable anymore of sustaining homemade groups and bands: as soon as 1 member gets more popular than the others, you can count the days before he/she will leave and the group will start to break up. Americans have become too indvidualistic to be part of a group for as many years as you see happen in K-pop. Sure, there are some bands who survive longer, but overall it's solo artists that's America's thing.


    As for the solo artists, I don't think Mariah Carey is a good example: you simply can't compare someone who's had a music career for 20-30 years with others who're still fresh in it.


    So overall, imo K-pop does better with MV's, with groups, and only with solo artists there's a number of American artists that really stand out.

    The big budgeted, extravagant music videos - a la Hype Williams from the 90s/00s, or the music videos from the 80s - are more or less a thing of the past in the west and i don't see them coming back any time soon. Also, you forget that kpop is the largest part of the modern pop scene in S. Korea so it makes sense to invest money if you corner the largest part of the music industry by the get go, high investment - high returns.

    In the US (basically generally in the west) the pop industry is really fragmented. It is not really individualism but this fragmentation. Just to break it down, popular music genres include country, pop rock and pop punk, edm, rnb, synthpop and tons of hiphop/rap subgenres, local scenes, and so on. Two of the most influential cities for the american music industry in the 2020s is Nashville and Atlanta. Hell, the various UK electronic/dance scenes have been probably more influential than the LA and NYC scenes in the last 20 years for pop music. So why would you invest a ton of money if you are cornering only a fragment of the total market? And, in many cases, you don't really have to target internationally or even nationally but just locally to make profit and have a sustainable business?

    Quote from Ves

    I do tech! And how is calling all American pop artists lazy NOT a full-on troll thread? LOL, by the way if you think this is joining the ranks of AKP trolls, maybe you're not clear on what real troll threads are. They aim to incite large swaths of people in one go. Like this one!


    Are you trolling me? :-D

    Well, now it's getting intriguing, who's trolling who? :pepe-use-head:




    ... ^^




    As for American pop artists, maybe calling all American pop artists lazy's a bridge too far, but personally I haven't been really that impressed with what the American pop industry has produced the past few years, compared with what a far smaller country like SK has brought forth with all its K-pop artists in the same time span :-):wellr:

    Quote from mariaVSkpop

    The big budgeted, extravagant music videos - a la Hype Williams from the 90s/00s, or the music videos from the 80s - are more or less a thing of the past in the west and i don't see them coming back any time soon. Also, you forget that kpop is the largest part of the modern pop scene in S. Korea so it makes sense to invest money if you corner the largest part of the music industry by the get go, high investment - high returns.

    In the US (basically generally in the west) the pop industry is really fragmented. It is not really individualism but this fragmentation. Just to break it down, popular music genres include country, pop rock and pop punk, edm, rnb, synthpop and tons of hiphop/rap subgenres, local scenes, and so on. Two of the most influential cities for the american music industry in the 2020s is Nashville and Atlanta. Hell, the various UK electronic/dance scenes have been probably more influential than the LA and NYC scenes in the last 20 years for pop music. So why would you invest a ton of money if you are cornering only a fragment of the total market? And, in many cases, you don't really have to target internationally or even nationally but just locally to make profit and have a sustainable business?

    But isn't it weird? Why can a huge country with decades of experience in all kinda entertainment media not emulate or surpass the high quality and creativity spark that the American music scene had in the former century or early '00s?

    Many American MV's these days @@@d59f7075-b1a4-4d1d-bf0c-c04a15e2a765@@@ creative laziness.


    Maybe it's just me, but I really feel that in several fields, among them the music industry, that America's best days lie in the past. Which is a shame, but maybe it's also just a natural process, that other countries and cultures are picking it up and carrying the torch in those fields.

    Quote from Zenning

    But isn't it weird? Why can a huge country with decades of experience in all kinda entertainment media not emulate or surpass the high quality and creativity spark that the American music scene had in the former century or early '00s?

    Many American MV's these days just breathe creative laziness.


    Maybe it's just me, but I really feel that in several fields, among them the music industry, that America's best days lie in the past. Which is a shame, but maybe it's also just a natural process, that other countries and cultures are picking it up and carrying the torch in those fields.

    Depends, mainstream US music industry has taken a huge blow because of new media, p2p tech, streaming services and so on in the last 20 years. And if you take under consideration that mainstream pop targets a specific audience nowadays and not the whole market as up until the 90s/00s. What is cheaper than producer-based, in-the-box made music? You don;t have to call 10 musicians to record, you don't have to spend additional studio time if the recordings are not going well, or studio equipment if you need specific instruments or synths, and with melodyne and autotune you don't really need the singing talent either, or if you have the singing talent, the recording costs of doing multiple takes for a vocalist is a non issue. So you end up with mass produced, soulless, corporate, simplistic music. Plus, you only really need a viral tiktok video to become huge. So, there come the gimmic tik tok songs.

    On the other hand though, Jazz, rock, metal, and classical are now probably on the best level musicianship wise and production wise that they have ever been. Arguably, in some genres, even composition wise. Since they are no longer bound by mainstream rules, musicians can do whatever they want and create whatever type of music they want, and the internet provides an audience they otherwise would never had, even if they lose the mainstream appeal. And this is also true for a lot of indie pop, underground hip hop and electronic music.

    Btw, other countries were and still are ahead in many music genres. Scandinavian metal for example (especially the Gothenburg melodeath scene, the whole 2000-2010s american metalcore thing was build upon it), or latin american music (from bossa nova to raeggeton etc), electronic music in the UK (trip hop, dubstep) and acid jazz, post rock from canada and the UK or even japan and so on.

    Quote from mariaVSkpop

    Btw, other countries were and still are ahead in many music genres. Scandinavian metal for example (especially the Gothenburg melodeath scene, the whole 2000-2010s american metalcore thing was build upon it), or latin american music (from bossa nova to raeggeton etc), electronic music in the UK (trip hop, dubstep) and acid jazz, post rock from canada and the UK or even japan and so on.

    Ngl I didn't expect a display of metal knowledge all of a sudden!

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from ArmyBlink0

    American Pop Scene- More soloists

    Kpop Scene- More groups

    to add to that

    American pop scene - 70 years of modern pop industry, with many pop traditions and cultural elements, dozens of different and distinct music genres and scenes, geographically diverse, has been exported from the beginning internationally

    Kpop Scene - 30 years of kpop industry, one very specific kpop tradition and one very specific kpop culture, geographically located mostly in and around Seoul, dozens of (mainly computer-based) music genres combined into one music package in one specific scene, has been exported internationally mainly the last 15-20 years

  • AllKill VIP
  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from omegateatimer

    I wouldn’t say that. A lot of producer say that it is easier to producer for kpop since you are more free to use anything while most pop artists in the west do not want to go overboard with the producing style. Acts like Red Velvet or Itzy are a good example.

    I wasn’t talking about just production. But overall album quality, concepts, performances, and skill.


    Also I feel like so many western artist know exactly what they want and what sound they’re going for, so of course it would be more easier to produce for kpop who for the most part try to stand out but for me in the end it all ends up being similar.


    I feel like western pop acts are more diverse and well rounded.

    US pop scene if we consider non-mainstream pop as well is much more diverse and has more give and take relationshop with global scene, Korea mostly only takes and rehashes trends, a bit late.


    The main difference is imo that US pop is still mostly about music, kpop is mostly about idols as entertainers and girl/boyfriend substitutes and this impacts music. Kpop is heavily driven by the need to fit idols with no musical talent into the songs and often many of them + prioritization of choreo and visuals over music + need to sell idols "unique talents" instead of focuing on the song itself. Thats how it ends up with weird sections, abundance of beat drop choruses, fractured structure, unnecessary high notes, unnecessary bad rapping etc etc

    Quote from mariaVSkpop

    Depends, mainstream US music industry has taken a huge blow because of new media, p2p tech, streaming services and so on in the last 20 years. And if you take under consideration that mainstream pop targets a specific audience nowadays and not the whole market as up until the 90s/00s. What is cheaper than producer-based, in-the-box made music? You don;t have to call 10 musicians to record, you don't have to spend additional studio time if the recordings are not going well, or studio equipment if you need specific instruments or synths, and with melodyne and autotune you don't really need the singing talent either, or if you have the singing talent, the recording costs of doing multiple takes for a vocalist is a non issue. So you end up with mass produced, soulless, corporate, simplistic music. Plus, you only really need a viral tiktok video to become huge. So, there come the gimmic tik tok songs.

    On the other hand though, Jazz, rock, metal, and classical are now probably on the best level musicianship wise and production wise that they have ever been. Arguably, in some genres, even composition wise. Since they are no longer bound by mainstream rules, musicians can do whatever they want and create whatever type of music they want, and the internet provides an audience they otherwise would never had, even if they lose the mainstream appeal. And this is also true for a lot of indie pop, underground hip hop and electronic music.

    Btw, other countries were and still are ahead in many music genres. Scandinavian metal for example (especially the Gothenburg melodeath scene, the whole 2000-2010s american metalcore thing was build upon it), or latin american music (from bossa nova to raeggeton etc), electronic music in the UK (trip hop, dubstep) and acid jazz, post rock from canada and the UK or even japan and so on.

    That's actually the feeling I get with a lot of American MV's of the last years: it looks like the producers or music companies or artist don't even bother to make the effort anymore to produce creative, high quality videos, at least not on the level that was done in decades before. As if they've given up.


    I'm not that into metal, but it's great to see other musical genres thriving on levels they haven't before, if you've examples you'd like to share here, I'd be interested in learning more.

    I do know that EDM has been a thriving and very creative music genre way before it got really popular in the US in the past 10 years: from what I understood, it started mid '80s or late '80s in the US (San Francisco?) and then got adopted and became really huge in Europe as 1 of the main, dominant music genres in the '90s and '00s in a variety of subgenres like techno, trance, acid, dance, house etc.


    What I said before, looks like the music scene in various other countries have evolved and grown further into their own creative musical subgenres, which is maybe as it should be.

    In the 20th century it was mostly the US and the UK that were the main distributors of all kinda pop music trends all across the world.

    It's a good thing if other countries (like South Korea, but also others) have their own booming music scenes that find worldwide appeal.

    Quote from omegateatimer

    I wouldn’t say that. A lot of producer say that it is easier to producer for kpop since you are more free to use anything while most pop artists in the west do not want to go overboard with the producing style. Acts like Red Velvet or Itzy are a good example.

    there is a very specific approach into the composition/production requirements for the american mainstream pop though nowadays. SImple chord progressions, specific simple melodic patterns (just listen how many songs repeat the same note a million times in the melody), lack of key changes, very specific drum machine and bass sounds. The moment you move to more indie pop, ethereal pop and so on this does not apply though. And then there is bruno mars and jacob collier...

    On the other hand, kpop because its main influence traditionally is the 90s/00s pop sound and jpop they don't have problems with more complex compositions. They actually need it, since they have to cram anything from 5 to 12 people in one song, and keep the listener interested. This is easier when you have 3, 4 or even 5 different sections/mini songs then a typical song structure. It is Good Vibrations or Bohemian Rhapsody taken to their pop extreme. But, there are still limitations, especially in the presentation and the lyrical content (kpop is after all made under korean laws), but even in the sonority (a song like the eurovision 2021 winning song would never fly in kpop as it is too heavy, regardless of presentation or lyrical content of course).

    I still think american production (mixing, mastering) is better than kpop. I always feel there is a frequency gap in the kpop mixes, as if they used to much EQ in the lower-mid to lower regions, too much eq in the high mid, too much clashes between sonic elements (especially if there are synths and autotuned vocals with similar timbre at the same time) while i feel the western mixes are fuller in frequencies breath a bit more (less sonic clashes).

    To me while the American pop scene might be more diverse, currently the self entitlement me culture just leave a bad taste in my mouth. The constant beefing among the stars over petty things and lyrics always about sex. There’s no culture to appreciate as everything becomes vulgar. But maybe it’s because I’m getting older lol.

  • AllKill VIP
    • Official Post

    KPOP - More focused on groups

    Pros - More emphasis on performance(at least nowadays), huge production, smart promotion and marketing.


    Cons - Very behind on WW music trends, little to no creative freedom especially for women(though we're starting to see a change),


    Western pop - More emphasis on soloists and maybe duos here and there

    Pros - More creative freedom for artists, tons of diversity(if you look past the hot100)


    Cons - Most mainstream artists nowadays put little to no effort in MV production, performances or promotion. However this is starting to change in one way or another.




    I think more emphasis is put on fanbase, image, marketing and other things rather than the music in KPOP. So if you're looking for entertainers who have effort put into every little thing(from performances to promotion to MVs) then KPOP is for you.

    If you're looking for people who are more....authentic in the work they put out and don't care about stuff like MVs and all that then Western artists are for you.

    K pop shares similarities such as sound, concepts and fashion, but imo it’s more superior than western music. The music lingers well after you hear it and is also catchy which mainstream doesn’t do for me. That’s why I got into K pop because it was something different.

    well economics is king, and if you can have the same success with half the cost but half the quality, if you are a business you go with half the cost.


    electronic dance genres are huge in many places for decades. Especially countries like the netherlands, belgium, israel, japan, scandinavian countries even Greece had incredible rave scenes and party scenes and huge festivals as early as the 80s. Italy had an incredible boom with groups like 666 in the 90s (alarma is just legendary). But yeah, the UK scene was just mental.

    with the internet people discover that (what a surprise) there is awesome music in other countries. For me that is great. Americans probably don't like it. But yes, mainstream american pop is on the decline and i don't see how it can bounce back any time soon. But there is so much more music out there so who cares.


    As for metal i find these some good accessible examples of where things are going, technical playing, genre mixing, lots of weird time signatures and instrumentations

    and some modern jazz just for the fun of it

    Quote from Elf_lover

    K pop shares similarities such as sound, concepts and fashion, but imo it’s more superior than western music. The music lingers well after you hear it and is also catchy which mainstream doesn’t do for me. That’s why I got into K pop because it was something different.

    I absolutely love it when kpopies say western music and they just mean american top 40. Let's erase the totality of jazz, rock, metal, classical, exerimental and avant garde, dozens of electronic genres, dozens of hip hop and rap scenes and the historical and folk musical traditions of more than 50 countries.

    or you just actually think that kpop is indeed superior to all of these, in which case, my god, that's kinda sad.

    Quote from mariaVSkpop

    I absolutely love it when kpopies say western music and they just mean american top 40. Let's erase the totality of jazz, rock, metal, classical, exerimental and avant garde, dozens of electronic genres, dozens of hip hop and rap scenes and the historical and folk musical traditions of more than 50 countries.

    or you just actually think that kpop is indeed superior to all of these, in which case, my god, that's kinda sad.

    No, I don’t think it’s superior to other genes actually. I was mainly referring to the stuff you hear on the radio ie, rap shit and the like. I was a teenager in the ‘80’s so obviously music back then was memorable and iconic and K pop could never replace that. I’m also cultured and like classical music such as Beethoven and Mozart and that’s not American. If you read my post properly, I meant current music that’s played today not music that came out decades or even centuries ago.

    Quote from Elf_lover

    No, I don’t think it’s superior to other genes actually. I was mainly referring to the stuff you hear on the radio ie, rap shit and the like. I was a teenager in the ‘80’s so obviously music back then was memorable and iconic and K pop could never replace that. I’m also cultured and like classical music such as Beethoven and Mozart and that’s not American. If you read my post properly, I meant current music that’s played today not music that came out decades or even centuries ago.

    yeah. I just hate it when people say western music and mean horrible top 40 american pop. It is like anything else does not exist.

    Quote from mariaVSkpop

    there is a very specific approach into the composition/production requirements for the american mainstream pop though nowadays. SImple chord progressions, specific simple melodic patterns (just listen how many songs repeat the same note a million times in the melody), lack of key changes, very specific drum machine and bass sounds. The moment you move to more indie pop, ethereal pop and so on this does not apply though. And then there is bruno mars and jacob collier...

    On the other hand, kpop because its main influence traditionally is the 90s/00s pop sound and jpop they don't have problems with more complex compositions. They actually need it, since they have to cram anything from 5 to 12 people in one song, and keep the listener interested. This is easier when you have 3, 4 or even 5 different sections/mini songs then a typical song structure. It is Good Vibrations or Bohemian Rhapsody taken to their pop extreme. But, there are still limitations, especially in the presentation and the lyrical content (kpop is after all made under korean laws), but even in the sonority (a song like the eurovision 2021 winning song would never fly in kpop as it is too heavy, regardless of presentation or lyrical content of course).

    I still think american production (mixing, mastering) is better than kpop. I always feel there is a frequency gap in the kpop mixes, as if they used to much EQ in the lower-mid to lower regions, too much eq in the high mid, too much clashes between sonic elements (especially if there are synths and autotuned vocals with similar timbre at the same time) while i feel the western mixes are fuller in frequencies breath a bit more (less sonic clashes).

    Good answer! I actually agree with a lot. Although I prefer the mixing of K-pop songs more but I get where you are coming from. The mixing quality is very different and it is depending on the entertainment company. For example: while I think that Bighit/Hybe really tries to use the Western way (SM sometimes something in between) JYP has a really weird way of mixing imo that makes the songs sound flat.

    Quote from wendii

    I wasn’t talking about just production. But overall album quality, concepts, performances, and skill.


    Also I feel like so many western artist know exactly what they want and what sound they’re going for, so of course it would be more easier to produce for kpop who for the most part try to stand out but for me in the end it all ends up being similar.


    I feel like western pop acts are more diverse and well rounded.

    I wouldn’t say that still. It depends on what you are looking for while listening or following an

    artist. You see a lot of concepts in K-Pop that you would not see in the Western industry and vice-versa. It’s like comparing apples and pears. It always ends with your preferences. As someone who mainly listens to non-kpop and non-american pop or chart music (I still know everything that is going on) I wouldn’t call neither of them more or less creative in terms of performance, skills, quality or concepts. Each side has each characteristics.

    Lotta great discussion in this thread.


    American pop music peaked in the 80s. Simple as that. You had hip hop, rap, RnB, reggae, pop, rock, metal, and EDM all exploding at the same time. The Hot 100 was littered with absolute legends, like seriously, there is no decade in pop music that will ever come close to these names, who were all active and still dominating.


    MJ

    Prince

    U2

    Springsteen

    Bon Jovi

    Guns and Roses

    Journey

    Chicago

    Madonna

    Whitney

    Bobby Brown

    NWA

    Turner

    Franklin

    Collins

    Michael

    Summer

    Ross

    Ritchie

    John

    Janet Jackson

    Wonder

    Joel

    SaltnPepa

    Public Enemy

    Run DMC

    MC Hammer

    Pet Shop Boys

    Depeche Mode

    The Cure


    And i'm probably missing 20 more names from this list.


    I think it was the trash genre known as Grunge which not only destroyed rock n roll for good here, but also started the downfall of American pop music. Sure we still had some fun trends and GREAT artists like Beyonce, Swift, Eminem and Gaga, and later Bruno Mars, we still had a great little run where EDM dominated for awhile, but for the most part, the past 30 years has just been a sad wasteland for true music lovers.


    And every year it gets worse.


    You listen to the Hot 100 these days and there is no musicality, no soul. It's just a bunch of industry plants being groomed by Warner, UMG, and Sony, looking the same and sounding the same, singing basic songs with no complexity and 4 notes, autotune there in case you dont know how to mumble properly. They all just appear like frontmen and women for the legions of ghostwriters and song production teams that actually make the "music." Music is made by nerds sitting behind a computer, not in a studio with real instruments.


    I made this boomer point before and i'm making it again. Just look at these musty looking hair metal dudes, they look like they havent bathed in weeks. People made fun of them for their hair, makeup, spandex and leather pants, their out of control partying and orgies and drugs. But what if i told you that these distinguished young gentlemen actually PLAYED AND WROTE EVERY DAMN ONE OF THEIR SONGS? Real songs, not the 3 minutes ads that you hear today. What if i told you that these guys and hundreds of their peers had more musicality in one blowdried piece of hair than any of these local artists have today?


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    Quote from BlackpinkHouse

    I think it was the trash genre known as Grunge which not only destroyed rock n roll for good here, but also started the downfall of American pop music.

    tell me the truth, you really, really, really loved Cherry Pie back in the day, didn't you?

    Grunge didn't kill anything, especially Alice in chains and Soundgarden had great songs, melodic lines and solos and even the occasional odd meter (Them bones, blackhole sun), on top of their blues rock influences. The whole hair metal scene was already becoming a parody of itself and there was not a chance in a million they could out compete bands like slayer and metallica. They were not cool anymore.


    And electronic music is not the problem. Tim hecker, Amon Tobin, Brian eno, fennesz, eluvium etc make some incredible music, far more creative and layered than many typical 80s rock bands, surely miles above the current top 40 crap.


    On the rest, yeah, true. let the mainstream rot. Who cares. Like it matters anymore. You can find great music in an instant now, you don't have to rely on what media and the companies tell you to listen. Actually, I'm going to listen to cherry pie now.

    Quote from mariaVSkpop

    tell me the truth, you really, really, really loved Cherry Pie back in the day, didn't you?

    Grunge didn't kill anything, especially Alice in chains and Soundgarden had great songs, melodic lines and solos and even the occasional odd meter (Them bones, blackhole sun), on top of their blues rock influences. The whole hair metal scene was already becoming a parody of itself and there was not a chance in a million they could out compete bands like slayer and metallica. They were not cool anymore.


    And electronic music is not the problem. Tim hecker, Amon Tobin, Brian eno, fennesz, eluvium etc make some incredible music, far more creative and layered than many typical 80s rock bands, surely miles above the current top 40 crap.


    On the rest, yeah, true. let the mainstream rot. Who cares. Like it matters anymore. You can find great music in an instant now, you don't have to rely on what media and the companies tell you to listen. Actually, I'm going to listen to cherry pie now.


    I loved Warrant for sure. Cherry Pie was ok, but i liked their ballads (Sometimes She Cries and Heaven) and Uncle Tom's Cabin was a bop. I'm a sucker for the power ballad, any kind of emo song with an anthemic chorus...i get teary eyed.


    Random question...what do you think of Bruce Springsteen? He is the only person on Earth that i would ever call my "idol", he is my alltime bias so to speak lol.

    Power ballads are nice. a bit cheesy but really nice. I was talking about I'd do anything for love with one of my friends a few weeks ago and how there are really no overly dramatic love songs any more and that it is really a pity. I guess i'll have to listen to that again now.

    Quote from BlackpinkHouse

    Random question...what do you think of Bruce Springsteen? He is the only person on Earth that i would ever call my "idol", he is my alltime bias so to speak lol.

    from that era like 70s-80s I listen more to some psychedelic, prog rock and folk rock stuff, and a bit of fusion jazz, not so much the more straight rock. I don't know why. That era never really clicked for me in terms of "sound". Not even bands like sabbath or queen, or led zeppelin. So i never really listened to his stuff carefully. He is definitely great though, probably one of the most influential rockers of his time. But please, for the love of whatever is holy, somebody please stop politicians and movie directors from using born in the usa ever again. That poor song.

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