What are the biggest problems with chart followers?

    I'd like to hear opinions on the subject.


    It's something I've noticed that outside the bubble of people who have this hobby, it's something people looks down on within the K-pop community — And in general, but the focus here is K-pop.


    Of course, if I, for example, post about it somewhere on the internet for informational or archival purposes, without mentioning a degrading comparison or intentions of criticizing another artist, it's very unlikely that anyone will publicly seek clarification or make a direct criticism — Unless they like seeking chaos. But it's not something I see happening often, at least not to me. However, I still perceive it as something invalidated as a significant reason for someone to be interested in following the music industry, beyond art, without the interest of being doing It with the purpose of living through someone else's success, necessarily.


    Clearly, art is wonderful. Music is incredible, different vocal colors and techniques are incredible, dance is incredible, as are other different artistic segments we constantly are in contact with.


    But numbers, graphs and results can be too. For some people. At least for me It is.

    That's fair. The truth is, there are indeed people whose purpose is to insult artists. To validate their point, they may use different means to make them come out on top in the discussion. The insults vary depending on the artist in question.


    I believe the reason charts are often used for this purpose is due to the objective nature of these numbers.


    For example, you can say that an artist's music is bad, but it's so abstract and subjective that simply throwing it into a debate seems superfluous, sometimes even childish. However, you can set up a whole scheme with the results proving that release X by a given artist had terrible numbers, and often, there's not much the other person can do to refute it if the information is correct.

    I feel people who are involved in the fandom space invariably care about charting. Especially forums. It’s either charting or controversy or simps. Those are the only things that are there to discuss. What else can really be “discussed” on forums? You can say “oh I like their music” and beyond that that discussion is dead boring. I feel charts are a better topic than talking about controversy tbh. And public simping while ok to a certain degree is not really something everyone can do. Now you can say kpop music and stuff and the truth is Kpop is not interesting musically it’s not a genre that “predominantly” attracts people who have musical knowledge or interest. Hell we all don’t even speak the language to properly discuss or dissect the lyrics.


    Kpop as a genre and by design only attracts such type of people.

    Quote from Minazuki

    That's fair. The truth is, there are indeed people whose purpose is to insult artists. To validate their point, they may use different means to make them come out on top in the discussion. The insults vary depending on the artist in question.


    I believe the reason charts are often used for this purpose is due to the objective nature of these numbers.


    For example, you can say that an artist's music is bad, but it's so abstract and subjective that simply throwing it into a debate seems superfluous, sometimes even childish. However, you can set up a whole scheme with the results proving that release X by a given artist had terrible numbers, and often, there's not much the other person can do to refute it if the information is correct.

    If the forum was more active, maybe we'd see more people discussing more emotionally like say David lol


    There used to be people fighting everyday for the same things. Now if someone tries to cancel an idol for eating MC Donalds, most just end laughing and moving on. There can be many ways to fight about k-pop, some are against the rules though.

    Quote from ISaidISaid

    I feel people who are involved in the fandom space invariably care about charting. Especially forums. It’s either charting or controversy or simps. Those are the only things that are there to discuss. What else can really be “discussed” on forums? You can say “oh I like their music” and beyond that that discussion is dead boring. I feel charts are a better topic than talking about controversy tbh. And public simping while ok to a certain degree is not really something everyone can do. Now you can say kpop music and stuff and the truth is Kpop is not interesting musically it’s not a genre that “predominantly” attracts people who have musical knowledge or interest. Hell we all don’t even speak the language to properly discuss or dissect the lyrics.


    Kpop as a genre and by design only attracts such type of people.

    Good points. Exactly for said reason of K-pop not being something that attracts musical expects, there isn't substance or objectively to discuss what requires a level of studying and proficience — from both parts of the discussion — to make It last. While for understanding charts you just need to absorb random informations, sometimes even passively, just from watching discussions or topics.


    I'm not the biggest fan of discussing controversies either. I'm more interested in reading some of them, like a newspaper, than giving my two cents on these things. About simping or shipping, that's even less interesting for me. I'm more of a fujoshi of animated/fictional characters, while I don't really care about It when It comes to idols — maybe because what we know about them is so superfluous, sometimes even fake — that don't even make that much sense in my head.

    It's poorly perceived because by following the charts you look more like a sports fan who looks at the ranking of his team than a person who likes the music he listens to.


    There's nothing wrong with wanting to see your favorite band or solo artist succeed and thrive in the long run. The problem is when it becomes so obsessive that some fans end up seeing it as a competition.

    Quote from citron-icy

    It's poorly perceived because by following the charts you look more like a sports fan who looks at the ranking of his team than a person who likes the music he listens to.


    There's nothing wrong with wanting to see your favorite band or solo artist succeed and thrive in the long run. The problem is when it becomes so obsessive that some fans end up seeing it as a competition.

    I think the competitive nature of wanting to outdo others can manifest itself in any segment.


    Some people think they're better than others because they listen to a certain genre of music, because they don't listen to a certain genre of music, because they follow an artist with a certain talent, because they've been a fan for a longer time, etc. There are countless variations. Charts can be just one of these variations, depending on the person more than the hobby of following it.

    I think it's a part of kpop culture to follow charts and other stats. I don't think there's anything wrong with that because groups need to hit certain metrics to stay afloat.


    I think the problem with chart followers is when they weaponize charts to put down other groups. I think that part of kpop can become very toxic because that's how narratives get created. It's usually tough for a group to beat narratives no matter how good the songs are just because they didn't reach a certain position on the charts.


    I am curious if people that religiously follow charts actually listen to the full ep/album/comeback or do they just listen to songs that chart. I feel people that don't listen to a full project miss out on a lot of great music because if you only listen to the title tracks, then you miss out on a lot imo.

    Quote from StanGIDLE

    I think it's a part of kpop culture to follow charts and other stats. I don't think there's anything wrong with that because groups need to hit certain metrics to stay afloat.


    I think the problem with chart followers is when they weaponize charts to put down other groups. I think that part of kpop can become very toxic because that's how narratives get created. It's usually tough for a group to beat narratives no matter how good the songs are just because they didn't reach a certain position on the charts.


    I am curious if people that religiously follow charts actually listen to the full ep/album/comeback or do they just listen to songs that chart. I feel people that don't listen to a full project miss out on a lot of great music because if you only listen to the title tracks, then you miss out on a lot imo.

    Your comment and Icy's made me realize how, from the perspective of some people who aren't as interested in discussing this topic as much, some chart followers who are extremely negative have contributed to your thinking that either you follow the music closely or you follow the charts closely, and there's no middle ground. And that's interesting.


    To answer you, I can't speak for everyone, but there are definitely many people who are interested and can handle both as personal interests.

    Quote from Minazuki

    Your comment and Icy's made me realize how, from the perspective of some people who aren't as interested in discussing this topic as much, some chart followers who are extremely negative have contributed to your thinking that either you follow the music closely or you follow the charts closely, and there's no middle ground. And that's interesting.


    To answer you, I can't speak for everyone, but there are definitely many people who are interested and can handle both as personal interests.

    Agreed that balance is key. Not sure if it happens on AKP but other places it seems some follow charts rather than listen to the music. I understand it's kpop and not everybody is into genre for music.


    Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with following stats because you should celebrate when your group performs well. I will of course celebrate if a group I'm following reaches new milestones or exceeds expectations. I think stats can become toxic when used to put others down.


    Lastly, I think charts and other stats is a valuable tool to use to determine the health of the group you're following. If a groups is above certain metrics, then they should be fine, but if below then they're most likely in danger. I just wish there was a bit more substance when discussing kpop because most things usually lead to charts and other stats. Like it would be cool if we talk about a cool verse, chorus, bridge, production, choreography, etc. I think that type of discussion is often lost in kpop, but I think that can be a problem with pop music in general.

  • AllKill VIP

    lol impeccable timing. I was flabbergasted by this tweet and was literally thinking about posting this in a new thread, along with a question about just how popular your faves truly are in the US.


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    Biggest problem? That fans are constantly posting about it even if it's not that important.


    Using "charting" static can have it use when you try to see a bigger trend or if we are talking about a nogu group with very little previous success that maybe suddenly have a hit. I can use static like that to get a picture about a how popular a group acctually was and see a trend during the years, but that is more of a "looking back" use of it not constantly live reporting of the current charting.


    For example I can look at the charts and see 2NE1 popularity was strong to the end, but T-ara took a noose dive at the end of their active years. And I can look back on other groups to get a feeling about how popular a group acctually was, or at least how populart their music was and the timeperiod of their popularity. I can see that G-Idle/Idle had a short period of big success etc.


    But bringing up live charting about groups like Blackpink and NewJeans does not bring much new to the table. But, sure it will be intresting to see how NewJeans "charts" if the comeback, so that would have somekind of value.

    Quote from BlackpinkHouse

    lol impeccable timing. I was flabbergasted by this tweet and was literally thinking about posting this in a new thread, along with a question about just how popular your faves truly are in the US.


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    Stray Kids' career is very interesting to follow from this perspective, because it's incredibly satisfying to see their gradual rise in popularity.


    I've been a fan for a long time — ever since God's Menu — so I've had the opportunity to witness many firsthand experiences, as well as the circumstances that led them to build an audience in various markets, including the US.


    They're not exactly mainstream in the US, and they probably never will be. But they have a remarkably large fandom that has grown spontaneously with the popularity of their songs in the K-pop community. Additionally, with the growth of their brand and reach, they've brought a niche of new fans who didn't care for K-pop at all and enjoy their type of music to be attracted to them.

    This is interesting way to see the importance in It.


    If you think about it, these archives we have about the success of groups from years ago, if they hadn't been compiled by other fans in the past, a lot of data would have been lost.


    Some information that seems useless today about the results of BLACKPINK or NewJeans might seem boring now, but who knows, maybe it will have a purpose you'll value 10 years from now?

    It's absolutely not true that there is nothing to discuss about music other than charts and controversies. That's a crazy take. I've been in music communities all my life, usually music that doesn't chart, usually by people who aren't celebrities, and those communities have sometimes been way more active than any k-pop space I've seen. For an example I'm NOT a participant of (because it's full of boomers), check out the Steve Hoffman forum to see what an active music forum looks like without any chart discussion.


    K-pop fans just seem almost uniquely averse to discussing music, for some reason thinking you need a masters in music theory to discuss it or something. I think part of it may be the sort of tribalism where people don't want to be negative about songs their faves put out? I don't know.


    Anyway, the people who dispassionately follow the charts just out of benign interest are a minority. The majority use selective interpretation of the numbers to bolster the argument that their fave is the best and most important and everybody else is flopping. With that, comes an interpretation of the numbers that actually isn't objective. What the numbers say is how many times a song was listened to within a time period, or how many copies of an album was bought during a time period. What fans like to argue about is popularity. Even without the obsessive streaming/buying culture which defines k-pop, this relationship is tenuous and indirect. The data is more useful to see how individual fanbases change over time, but these interpretations are useless in terms of competition.


    At the same time, hard numbers really are the best counter to the delusional bad-faith bullshit hate that groups get. People on this forum get way too comfortable talking seriously ignorant shit because they get lost in very specific numbers sauce. I think if people could stop running their mouths about the supposed popularity of groups that they don't like, we'd actually get less charts discussion, which in itself would indicate that talk about charts isn't really about charts.

    I love charts and I know other people that love it too, but I have the feeling other people don't really understand why we follow them like that.


    Apart from being people that like graphs, stats and that stuff, charts are interesting to analize because they're supposed to be a reflection of reality, that's their whole purpose. To give these numbers context and talk about it is entertaining, at least for me.

    The problem is that there're really few people that really like to analyze charts, in the Kpop community most people posting about charts all the time are fans for bragging rights or antis to drag other artists, so it's really complicated to have a proper discussion without this kind of people coming it and feeling attacked if you say you think the charting of X group is weak for example.


    It's quite easy to identify who cares about analyzing it and who are just crazy fans, but sadly we're more used to see the former.


    That's why the digital thread exists in this forum after all, it was supposed to be a place for people to discuss them and not just posting tweets about their favs breaking records, but sadly we're few with that intention hahaha.

    I think in third gen at least there was some "check this song, what do you think about it?"


    Now it's mostly "everything is so boring" or "my faves outchart everyone so I can't complain" depending on the season

    Quote from Minazuki

    This is interesting way to see the importance in It.


    If you think about it, these archives we have about the success of groups from years ago, if they hadn't been compiled by other fans in the past, a lot of data would have been lost.


    Some information that seems useless today about the results of BLACKPINK or NewJeans might seem boring now, but who knows, maybe it will have a purpose you'll value 10 years from now?

    Well, it's not that hard to find information on wikipedia and similiar information sources if you really need it, I have no problem of use statics and a source of confirmin trends or other objects, but it's the constant posting of charting that gets boring.

    it's actually a pretty good way for the top top groups. for an example,


    what do you think if BP latest comeback didn't reach top 5 on SK charts? 1 day on spotify global? 1 music show win? selling less than 1m album sales? didn't enter bb hot100? back doing arena in their tour? and even after all of that, their fans still talking about being the Biggest GG in the world?


    there are some groups that can afford to do that , but if it's Blackpink? they will get cooked all over internet.

    Edited once, last by trippin ().

    Quote from trippin

    it's actually a pretty good way for the top top groups. for an example,


    what do you think if BP latest comeback didn't reach top 5 on SK charts? 1 day on spotify global? 1 music show win? selling less than 1m album sales? didn't enter bb hot100? back doing arena in their tour? and even after all of that, their fans still talking about being the Biggest GG in the world?


    there are some groups that can afford to do that , but if it's Blackpink? they will get cooked all over internet.

    Counterpoint: They'd still be the most popular and successful girlgroup for most of those, so it would say very little about them. Obviously if they downgraded their venues like you said, that's another matter, but that doesn't happen with one bad comeback.

    There is nothing wrong with discussing charts objectively, some people just enjoy the statistics game and the discussions around it.


    However majority of the kpop fans use charts as a weapon and then objectivity is thrown out of the window and there isnt really any proper discussions. So thats why now we have the skewed perception of chart followers in kpop


    I have been following football as another example for more than 10 years and even football fans, as bad as they are, have the ability to be objective and sensible during discussions at least 50% of the time.

    Quote from Yama-Chan

    Lol no

    At least football fans can admit when their own players/team are not doing well :skull: Just look at Martinelli right now when so many Arsenal fans are calling for him to be dropped for bad performance


    Kpop fans can rarely say anything bad about their favourite group

    Quote from z1

    At least football fans can admit when their own players/team are not doing well :skull: Just look at Martinelli right now when so many Arsenal fans are calling for him to be dropped for bad performance


    Kpop fans can rarely say anything bad about their own group

    Oh you meant that football. Sorry, I have American brain so I thought you meant NFL, where fans absolutely are not objective half the time or even 25% of the time, and sports fans weaponize numbers even more than K-Pop fans.

    I don't care about anybody's stance on charting, but if you hold a negative opinion towards it, then blame BLACKPINK. They enable the allegedly toxic discourse. Just look at the lyrics to The Girls:


    "See the numbers and it's already charted."


    Like idol, like fans.

    I don't believe it's impossible to discuss music without in-depth knowledge, but there's a point until where this discussion within K-pop Community — about a specific song or album — can be productive, because it quickly reaches a point where the person's already said everything their know or have an opinion on about said music. Unless, of course, there's newer releases to talk about.


    But I believe that beyond the excellent point you made about the nature of K-pop audiences being repulsed by the possibility of contact with comments that contradict their opinion regarding their favorites' songs, I also believe that the community is extremely fandom-driven.


    If the community as a whole, beyond a specific niche, enjoyed and closely followed various artists' releases, I think we'd have more discussions about music, because more people would be interested in discussing in depth the content of artists other than their favorites, since there are always new releases.

    I really like to read your insights related to charts whenever I see you driven across the threads about it. Don't give up!

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