I'm reflecting here and I feel that, as the popularity of a boygroup and the solidification of a fanbase is built gradually, the time they have in comparison to their peers might be precious. It's as if they have the opportunity to immediately catch the eyes for them and when the new ones arrive, there aren't as many people interested anymore until they start to decline or are forced to a hiatus due enlistment.
Do you think that, for boygroups, it is advantageous to debut in the beginning of a generation?
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Yea
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“Start” of a generation is arbitrary. So no I don’t agree. EXO “started” their generation by being an explosive hit at debut. But in 2nd gen hit groups debuted every few years and it continued to be only one single gen until EXO happened.
It’s a very new concept to randomly assign a new gen just to give new artists some achievements and relevance nothing more.
If you’re good, you’ll be a hit no matter what. Start or mid of a generation has no meaning.
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+1
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“Start” of a generation is arbitrary. So no I don’t agree. EXO “started” their generation by being an explosive hit at debut. But in 2nd gen hit groups debuted every few years and it continued to be only one single gen until EXO happened.
It’s a very new concept to randomly assig a new gen just to give new artists some achievements and relevance nothing more.
If you’re good, you’ll be a hit no matter what. Start or mid of a generation has no meaning.
Hard agree. Generations have never been regarded seriously until 4th Gen happened with the desperate need for some relevance in kpop.
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“Start” of a generation is arbitrary. So no I don’t agree. EXO “started” their generation by being an explosive hit at debut. But in 2nd gen hit groups debuted every few years and it continued to be only one single gen until EXO happened.
It’s a very new concept to randomly assig a new gen just to give new artists some achievements and relevance nothing more.
If you’re good, you’ll be a hit no matter what. Start or mid of a generation has no meaning.
I don't know, Tic, 'Generations' in K-pop has always been a mediaplay for marketability to give a false sense of 'new beginning' and 'fresh' so consumers can move on from one older thing to a shiny new one, as a consequence, beneficing specific acts. It started as mediaplay by journalists, people just embraced. And It really works on how the audience moves.
People just noticed how forced It is more during 4th generation, cause the 3rd generation was when K-pop reached It highest peak and has been expanded to a whole new level globally, what makes more diffcult for older groups to slow down.
However, I think It's a disadvantage for who debuts in the middle, because since boygroups mostly are natural slowburners, some of them end up reaching their peak when the new generation already took over and their senior peers start to enlist/decline. So they are too old to be compared to newer successful groups and too new to be put in the same discussion of older boygroups that already built a legacy through a whole generation and people already defined them as 'leaders'. So their success just end up not holding the same power on people's perception.
Not that I think It's bad, I actually like generations to create a separation of specific period of time that everyone can quickly make a connection with and thinking about specific acts and trends.
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Yes, or it's a benefit to debut when the old star groups have vanished or lost most of it's former power.
Some of the girl groups debuting in the early 2nd generation years 2007-2009:
Girls Generation
After School
T-ARA
f(x)
And groups debuting at the end of the 2nd generation/start of 3rd generation 2014-2016:
Twice
2022:
Need to say more?
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I don't know, Tic, 'Generations' in K-pop has always been a mediaplay for marketability to give a false sense of 'new beginning' and 'fresh' so consumers can move on from one older thing to a shiny new one, as a consequence, beneficing specific acts. It started as mediaplay by journalists, people just embraced. And It really works on how the audience moves.
People just noticed how forced It is more during 4th generation, cause the 3rd generation was when K-pop reached It highest peak and has been expanded to a whole new level globally, what makes more diffcult for older groups to slow down.
However, I think It's a disadvantage for who debuts in the middle, because since boygroups mostly are natural slowburners, some of them end up reaching their peak when the new generation already took over and their senior peers start to enlist/decline. So they are too old to be compared to newer successful groups and too new to be put in the same discussion of older boygroups that already built a legacy through a whole generation and people already defined them as 'leaders'. So their success just end up not holding the same power on people's perception.
Not that I think It's bad, I actually like generations to create a separation of specific period of time that everyone can quickly make a connection with and thinking about specific acts and trends.
It’s a made up problem by underperforming new generation group and not real imo.
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It’s a made up problem by underperforming new generation group and not real imo.
It's just curious how the Top 1/2 biggest boygroups of each generation have been the ones debuting in the first 1-3 years after a defined generation's start by media. And It remains the same for years. Coincidence? We can only theorize.
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It…hasn’t? It’s a very new problem?
How not?
H.O.T was the first K-pop boygroup debuted under the system we are aware of and they are the biggest of their generation.
TVXQ and BIGBANG debuted in the first few years of second generation and are the biggest boygroups.
BTS and EXO debuted in the first few years of third and are the biggest boygroups.
Stray Kids and TXT being the biggest of 4th is just an extension of what happened before.
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How not?
H.O.T was the first K-pop boygroup debuted under the system we are aware of and they are the biggest of their generation.
TVXQ and BIGBANG debuted in the first few years of second generation and are the biggest boygroups.
BTS and EXO debuted in the first few years of third and are the biggest boygroups.
Stray Kids and TXT being the biggest of 4th is just an extension of what happened before.
SKZ would have never been considered a top group of their generations if 3rd gen lasted as long as 2nd gen.
Seventeen will have bigger sales, bigger tour bigger Spotify and also a top 10 digital hit much like exo. It’s pretty weird to leave them out of top group discussions of 3rd gen.
And by “old definition” RIIZE is already bigger than SKZ because they’ve charted higher on Korean charts and had an explosive debut. If anything it’s proof that new gen had to wait a long a time before an explosive BG debut had to happen since neither SKZ nor txt could chart that high at debut.
But people will turn around and say “no riize is new 5th Gen.” Lol.
We’ve just changed what “top group” means (include international performance instead of just Korean) and how short generations are (I can’t blv how short 3rd Gen is lol)
Everything is arbitrary. And dictated by how people want to make their favs look better by saying “they are top of their GENERATION”
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SKZ would have never been considered a top group of their generations if 3rd gen lasted as long as 2nd gen.
Seventeen will have bigger sales, bigger tour bigger Spotify and also a top 10 digital hit much like exo. It’s pretty weird to leave them out of top group discussions of 3rd gen.
And by “old definition” RIIZE is already bigger than SKZ because they’ve charted higher on Korean charts and had an explosive debut. If anything it’s proof that new gen had to wait a long a time before an explosive BG debut had to happen since neither SKZ nor txt could chart that high at debut.
But people will turn around and say “no riize is new 5th Gen.” Lol.
We’ve just changed what “top group” means (include international performance instead of just Korean) and how short generations are (I can’t blv how short 3rd Gen is lol)
Everything is arbitrary. And dictated by how people want to make their favs look better by saying “they are top of their GENERATION”
do you honestly thing they are 4th gen tho? txt were the ones that started 4th gen they actually did better than skz in their debut
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SKZ would have never been considered a top group of their generations if 3rd gen lasted as long as 2nd gen.
Seventeen will have bigger sales, bigger tour and also a top 10 hit digital hit much like exo. It’s pretty weird to leave them out of top group discussions of 3rd gen.
And by old “definition” RIIZE is already bigger than SKZ because they’ve charted higher on Korean charts and had an explosive debut. If anything it’s proof that new gen had to wait a long a time before an explosive BG debut had to happen since neither SKZ nor txt could chart that high at debut.
But people will turn around and say “no riize is new 5th Gen.” Lol.
We’ve just changed what “top group” means (include international charting) and how short generations are (I can’t blv how short 3rd Gen is lol)
I don't disagree on what you said about Stray Kids and I have no problem about It. But that's not my point. If they were considerated by media a 3rd generation group and weren't a top group of their generation, TXT would still be and my point would be just the same. The boygroup that debuted in 2019, ahead of every other even If already passed 5 years into 4th generation and we are already discussing the possibility of switch to 5th soon.
Maybe RIIZE can be bigger than the current Top 2? Maybe. We can't predict the future, but so far, 6 years later the path has been the same of other generations.
And I'm not dismissing Seventeen success, but they aren't the biggest boygroup of their generation and the possibility of #2 is still discussed while most people might even disagree.
Do you understand me? I'm not denying other successful boygroups can exist through every generation. And VERY successful. But why the #1-2 is consistently the ones from the beginning?
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I don't disagree on what you said about Stray Kids and I have no problem about It. But that's not my point. If they were considerated by media a 3rd generation group and weren't a top group of their generation, TXT would still be and my point would be just the same. The boygroup that debuted in 2019, ahead of every other even If already passed 5 years into 4th generation and we are already discussing the possibility of switch to 5th soon.
Maybe RIIZE can be bigger than the current Top 2? Maybe. We can't predict the future, but so far, 6 years later the path has been the same of other generations.
And I'm not dismissing Seventeen success, but they aren't the biggest boygroup of their generation and the possibility of #2 is still discussed while most people might even disagree.
Do you understand me? I'm not denying other successful boygroups can exist through every generation. And VERY successful. But why the #1 is consistently the ones from the beginning?
It’s not though. It’s how people have changed the definition.
Why should TXT be considered “TOP” of anything in spite of performing same/lesser than seventeen? While 17 arbitrarily gets left out of these conversation just because they happened to debut couple of years after BTS? It’s just because fans want to dub the start of a new generation. And it doesn’t actually have any real meaning.
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It is
The majority bigger Boygroups of each gen always debut early
The reason is like any industry kpop is cyclical. There will be moments where kpop songs are more popular and moments where kpop is less popularl
Generally speaking, the biggest Boygroups debut in off-season, which is the moment when the generation behind them is slowly losing their popularity. Those Boygroups build fandoms and when kpop goes back to normality again they have a head-start from their already existing fandom
However those things are getting more and more blurry. It's true for markets where kpop is already mainstream I.e. Korea, Japan, China and to some extent SEA. But don't hold any weight in West where kpop is simply far to unknown to have cycles
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another point
With companies rushing generations instead of just letting them happen naturally with the decrease in popularity of the current gen I predict by the time 6th starts this point longer holf any weight even in Korea or Japan
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It’s not though. It’s how people have changed the definition.
Why should TXT be considered “TOP” of anything in spite of performing same/lesser than seventeen? While 17 arbitrarily gets left out of these conversation just because they happened to debut couple of years after BTS? It’s just because fans want to dub the start of a new generation. And it doesn’t actually have any real meaning.
Cause:
'Generations' in K-pop has always been a mediaplay for marketability to give a false sense of 'new beginning' and 'fresh' so consumers can move on from one older thing to a shiny new one, as a consequence, beneficing specific acts. It started as mediaplay by journalists, people just embraced. And It really works on how the audience moves.
And It doesn't even matter If the Top Acts from previous generations are still being successful and topping every or most of the metrics.
If It was a requeriment, when EXO debuted they would've been a 2nd generation act, cause in 2012 BIGBANG was having their absolute peak (before MADE) with "Alive + Still Alive" era.
So Seventeen existence wouldn't mean anything to stop media to define a new generation where a specific act would be seen as the biggest.
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It is
The majority bigger Boygroups of each gen always debut early
The reason is like any industry kpop is cyclical. There will be moments where kpop songs are more popular and moments where kpop is less popularl
Generally speaking, the biggest Boygroups debut in off-season, which is the moment when the generation behind them is slowly losing their popularity. Those Boygroups build fandoms and when kpop goes back to normality again they have a head-start from their already existing fandom
However those things are getting more and more blurry. It's true for markets where kpop is already mainstream I.e. Korea, Japan, China and to some extent SEA. But don't hold any weight in West where kpop is simply far to unknown to have cycles
This has become a cause and effect thing. It’s not that big groups debut at the start of a generation. We just label the start of the generation at the debut of big groups. Which is what makes 4th gen BG generation debut ever more peculiar.
See with EXO or BTS they were out performing all the previous groups before them as the old groups were winding down. That was never the case with 4th gen. 3rd gen was reaching new peaks even at this arbitrary start of 4th gen. 4th gen was quite literally just a random sub section to give newer groups a chance to have some records and literally no other distinction.
(This is contrary to GG’s where in 3rd gen GG’s are simply not relevant on the charts any more and the charts are dominated by 4th gen GG’s for example.)
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It is
The majority bigger Boygroups of each gen always debut early
The reason is like any industry kpop is cyclical. There will be moments where kpop songs are more popular and moments where kpop is less popularl
Generally speaking, the biggest Boygroups debut in off-season, which is the moment when the generation behind them is slowly losing their popularity. Those Boygroups build fandoms and when kpop goes back to normality again they have a head-start from their already existing fandom
However those things are getting more and more blurry. It's true for markets where kpop is already mainstream I.e. Korea, Japan, China and to some extent SEA. But don't hold any weight in West where kpop is simply far to unknown to have cycles
In my opinion there's multiple reasons why a group might reach stardom. And timing - be in the right place during the right time - definitely one of the reasons.
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Cause:
And It doesn't even matter If the Top Acts from previous generations are still being successful and topping every or most of the metrics.
If It was a requeriment, when EXO debuted they would've been a 2nd generation act, cause in 2012 BIGBANG was having their absolute peak (before MADE) with "Alive + Still Alive" era.
So Seventeen existence wouldn't mean anything to stop media to define a new generation where a specific act would be seen as the biggest.
I knew someone would say this about Bigbang but that’s not comparable at all.
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I knew someone would say this about Bigbang but that’s not comparable at all.
And in my opinion, It's even worse to take it in consideration for the transition of 3rd generation to 4th generation, cause BTS is a much stronger force than BIGBANG was or H.O.T was. If we had to wait for them to slow down, we would have to wait until 2070.
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This has become a cause and effect thing. It’s not that big groups debut at the start of a generation. We just label the start of the generation at the debut of big groups. Which is what makes 4th gen BG generation debut ever more peculiar.
See with EXO or BTS they were out performing all the previous groups before them as the old groups were winding down. That was never the case with 4th gen. 3rd gen was reaching new peaks even at this arbitrary start of 4th gen. 4th gen was quite literally just a random sub section to give newer groups a chance to have some records and literally no other distinction.
(This is contrary to GG’s where in 3rd gen GG’s are simply not relevant on the charts any more and the charts are dominated by 4th gen GG’s for example.)
4th gen was already labeled so when TxT and Stray Kids were there and they did nothing sort of special in their rookie years. What made a top group like Bigbang or BTS is their resilience if their upcoming years
Boygroups needs time and investment. No groups debuted after TxT or Stray Kids is touching their numbers anytime soon. Their marketshare and mindshare is simply stronger. Their position means they will have longer time on TV and awards, more investment from their companies, more space in kpop circles and discussions, more fans to spread their songs on SNS, more idols covering them on TT and such
If you please you can remove whatever generation constraints from equation and simply observe the biggest boygroups will simply have some sort of space (in years) between their debuts. In kpop those spaces are called generations. Right now Stray Kids and TxT are starting to age, the next top Boygroups will be debuting from 2024 to 2025
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That’s not the expectation at all. They can’t beat NCT or seventeen either in Korea “currently”. Sure you can say korean charting isn’t important but these definition of generation and top group etc come from Korean media and fans. They’re dictating it so it does indeed matter how groups are perceived in Korea.
So like I said it’s actually “RIIZE” that seems to have broken the slump of BG debuts rather Ay groups so far in 4th gen.
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so it means these groups lucked out debuting early.
They did. The timing is good
GP support side, Bigbang fandom was Super Junior level. They would qualify for a Top BG even sith less GP support. Not the absolute top 1 though
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That’s not the expectation at all. They can’t beat NCT or seventeen either in Korea “currently”. Sure you can say korean charting isn’t important but these definition of generation and top group etc come from Korean media and fans. They’re dictating it so it does indeed matter how groups are perceived in Korea.
So like I said it’s actually “RIIZE” that seems to have broken the slump of BG debuts rather Ay groups so far in 4th gen.
Why I would say korean charting isn't important? It is. But It just one metric that holds as much power as others I could've mentioned here. And in these other metrics Stray Kids is bigger or as big as the other mentioned boygroups depending on what we are discussing. What helps them to hold a specific position so far, we liking it or not.
As you previously mentioned: "We’ve just changed what 'top group' means (include international performance instead of just Korean)"
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The most important thing an idol group has to attract fans is their age
This a very unfortunate fact. Older groups can't get new fans
So for a new top group to rise I.e. get fans from the 14-20 years range the top groups need to be put to rest
Seventeen and NCT rise in Korea "coincidentally" happening during the EXO hiatus sort of proves that
However as I stated generations are getting more and more useless with time. If companies were here to be truthful 4th gen should have started in 2020 but alas, that can't be helped
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SKZ fans just stuck with the 4th gen label so bad bc their favs were flopping on an unprecedented level for a big 3 bg back then
Even now no hit, no it member… nothing iconic or memorable come out of them. And I can say the same for enhypen and txt
The only thing they have is fandom which is impressive but not hard to gain, that’s why they only somewhat “relevant” now
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SKZ fans just stuck with the 4th gen label so bad bc their favs were flopping on an unprecedented level for a big 3 bg back then
Even now no hit, no it member… nothing iconic or memorable come out of them. And I can say the same for enhypen and txt
The only thing they have is fandom which is impressive but not hard to gain, that’s why they only somewhat “relevant” now
Is it the only take you have for the discussion?
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The most important thing an idol group has to attract fans is their This a very unfortunate fact. Older groups can't get new fans
So for a new top group to rise I.e. get fans from the 14-20 years range the top groups need to be put to rest
Seventeen qne NCT rise in Korea "coincidentally" happening during the EXO hiatus sort of proves that
However as I stated generations are getting more and more useless with time. If companies were here to be truthful 4th gen should have started in 2020 but alas, that can't be helped
Well maybe that’s more true for ggs
But kpop fans have no issue stanning older bgs, sk never moved to 4th gen bgs. Bgs actually get more privileged as they age until military time.
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Is it the only take you have for the discussion?
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The most important thing an idol group has to attract fans is their age
This a very unfortunate fact. Older groups can't get new fans
So for a new top group to rise I.e. get fans from the 14-20 years range the top groups need to be put to rest
Seventeen qne NCT rise in Korea "coincidentally" happening during the EXO hiatus sort of proves that
However as I stated generations are getting more and more useless with time. If companies were here to be truthful 4th gen should have started in 2020 but alas, that can't be helped
During 2018-2019 you used to study Seventeen's digital performance through their ULs on Genie, since there wasn't information given by Melon. And I remember we have a conversation about It back then, how they seemed on a verge of a breakthrough domestically.
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Well maybe that’s more true for ggs
But kpop fans have no issue stanning older bgs, sk never moved to 4th gen bgs. Bgs actually get more privileged as they age until military time.
90% of Stray Kids fans started stanning them in the last 3 years so there is no point in dropping them
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Yup. I followed their numbers very closely and called it. Even nowadays the only thing holding them back is because their music is hit or miss. When they released something catchy they do well, but it's hard to build GP support when you change musical direction each comeback. If Seventeen had EXO string of catchy music they would be huge digitally, no question here
I also called Stray Kids domination
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Anyway I don’t think SKZ and TXT are top of their generation nor are they even a separate generation to 3rd. You need wholistic success to be a top gen which they don’t have.
The next top of the generation BG will be the one that has decent international and domestic charting. Not at BTS level, but what 17 did is more than sufficient. Good Spotify charts, good korean digitals enough to enter the year end charts and good sales.
Who ever does that, will deserve the title of leading a new generation.
Seventeen who debuted in the middle actually BECAUSE they debuted in the middle were able to over come many of the records set by EXO for example. Which is a direct contradiction to the title.
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