Stop antagonizing idols that say the word

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Knowledge

During my time here and on the old forums, its come to my attention that a lot of the issues surrounding certain topics boils down to knowledge. What one knows, what one doesn't know, what one ought to know etc.

So what is knowledge: a quick google search

facts, information, and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

Why is knowledge so important here - because of the "megathreads" - most of them are on controversial subjects such…

selfmate

Feb 1st 2021

Back when I used to be like yama and write essays

I'm from Eastern Europe and in my youth I really didn't know, I learned it through the Internet when I was 20 or smth, so I'm kinda not surprised they are using it especially in Asia, but adults who know or knew should have told them.

I'm sure they know now tho

This topic requires a nuanced take, but more often than not, ignorant people weaponize it just to take down idols their toxic tribalism compels them to.

But I still have a harsh stance on this issue, when looking at it from the idol's perspectives. If you're going to heavily and I mean heavily borrow from black culture, from the fashion to the music and everything in between, then it is not a big ask to make sure you are careful not to use words that would offend people from said culture.

That's not a high bar to clear.

Now in the recent case, it's even more nuanced because they were actually children still in training and performing under the direction of adults who failed them. It's not like the BP members uploaded a cover and started dropping N bombs, so people need to use their critical thinking skills and not treat every one of these incidents as if they're the same.

But no, I don't see any issue in holding idols accountable as well as their companies. That should be the standard with anything that could be racially insensitive.

Yeah, I don't know about this.

I feel like at this point, especially since most KPOP artists want to break out into the American markets, companies should know better.

They have been working with a lot of black artists these days. Particularly black rappers, and they know well enough not to release any music with that word even for their Western releases. But, they don't know well enough not to have the artists rap it in a cover.

I'm not saying artists should be completely cancelled if it happened in the past, but for any future KPOP artists, at this point, they should know better.

just like how the US doesn't study Korean history, the rest of the world doesn't study US history and their rampant racism from the colonial times until the civil rights movement.

Quote from yabxtc

***While this is coming from a black person, I do not speak for all black people.

I wanted to add my little two cents with the recent videos of blackpink members saying the n-word. I personally don’t get mad at people from non-western countries saying the n-word because at the end of the day they don’t know the history behind the word. Basically anyone who lives in the anglosphere (North America, Europe, Australia) should know what the n word is and its history but I don’t expect someone from Africa, South America or much of Asia to know (although antiblackness is prevalent in most cultures but that's a conversation for another time).

I would compare it to the use of the rising sun symbol, Asians would take offense to someone parading it around but I have to admit I didn’t know what the rising sun was or what it represented until I got into kpop. Most people in America would also have no clue and while I'm not European I don’t think Europeans would get it either. To use the word for me context matters because if you are saying it in a song lyric (like most idols and people) I can’t really be mad. It's a bit harder to defend in any other context though. I’m not saying that it's not a big deal but people are too quick to antagonize others for using the word. I’d rather give the person who said an explanation why it's wrong and hurtful to use the word. If they still continue to say it then it becomes a problem. People can grow and recognize their ignorance it's just most times they aren't given the chance.

Also I’ve seen others say that it takes an effort to take it out of their vocabulary but if you are a non-black person why in the world would that be part of your vocabulary in the first place? I think it's very performative when kpop fans attack groups or idols for saying the word because to them it's like a gotcha moment (specifically the “but namjoon” crowd) or just another reason to drag someone they don’t like. It's just another card they can pull for fan wars without recognizing the significance and pain that word has on black people.

Idols who I think can’t be excused from the top of my head:

Rosé (born in NZ raised in Australia + her age at the time of saying it)

Jennie (went to school in NZ + her age)

Jaehyun (although he left America when he was 10, american schools teach slavery by the time he got to that age and kids definitely know not to say that word)

Namjoon (mr. special talent is speaking like a black person was totally aware that he was picking up a blaccent and aave while learning english and thought it was cool to include during his early talk shows)

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I'm glad you created a new thread instead posting on that messy thread and well said.

Especially for the antagonizing and gotcha moment. Just look at people in that messy drama time thread in this forum, the amount of trolling in theat thread by posting twitter memes about the n-words itself is crazy and already prove your point. They are just flirting with racism in that thread.

Quote from huRRicane8

I'm from Eastern Europe and in my youth I really didn't know, I learned it through the Internet when I was 20 or smth, so I'm kinda not surprised they are using it especially in Asia, but adults who know or knew should have told them.

I'm sure they know now tho

Hello, my eastern European friend 🥰

My country never colonized anyone; there are barely POC living here (people from small town never even saw black person or latino person in their life. Only chinese because they have shops here). The word had nothing to do with our history. My language is Slavic. Our translation of the n word doesn't even start with N. The only Negro that we have are amazing candies 😄

N word in lyrics will always be sung and all artists that come here know that. It's just how it is.

Sorry but I find it hard that these idols who grow up idolizing black artists and black culture have no knowledge of that word when it’s used so regularly in black music.

That being said, I don’t feel bad for idols who say it and get immense backlash since the history behind that word is so heavy. And this is coming from someone who’s black.

Article that came out after the infamous Kendrick Lamar fan incident

Should white people ever sing the N-word?

The controversy over the use of the N-word has hit the headlines again after a white woman was booed at a Kendrick Lamar gig for singing it on stage.

The rapper invited the woman to sing M.A.A.D City during his set at the Hangout Festival in Alabama.

But Lamar stopped her after she repeatedly used the N-word - which is heard multiple times in his song.

As the crowd reacted angrily, Kendrick told the fan: "You gotta bleep one single word."

The N-word is a derogatory term; a racial slur which was used to refer to and insult black slaves, but today it is used prominently in hip-hop.

The reaction to the Kendrick footage on social media was mixed - with some defending the woman and others saying Lamar did the right thing by cutting her off.

South London grime artist Yizzy, who recently released his EP SOS, points out that Lamar had already had a couple of fans up on the stage who sang along with him without using the N-word.

"The word shouldn't have been used at all [by the female fan] - it would have been very easy for her not to use it," he tells BBC News.

"It's a choice when you use that word, whatever race [you are]. Kendrick dealt with it in a very good way. She could have avoided the whole situation herself and she put herself in that position."

He explains that he uses the word sparingly himself to add impact when necessary.

"I use it in several different ways, as a way to refer to another person of that ethnicity or to explain the word as a metaphor, for example. "I use it when I feel I need to. I try to avoid swearing in my songs... but my lyrics flow naturally, when that word fits and makes a lot of sense, I'll put it in there."

Yizzy adds: "Every person can say what they want, there's freedom of speech, but you have a responsibility. "If you use the word... and you're not of any black heritage, in this modern day world, be prepared to face a backlash."

And if a white artist used it "and it had no relation to what you're saying, you're just saying it to be controversial, you're completely unacceptable", he says.

This issue also came up last year, when footage of a group of students at the University of New Hampshire was posted online, attracting national attention.

The group, which included white students, were seen singing along to Kanye West's 2006 hit Gold Digger, which features the word prominently.

They were widely criticised and their university said the students had displayed "poor judgement", but some came forward to defend them.

"[The students] didn't write the song, Kanye West did," wrote Piers Morgan in The Daily Mail.

"They didn't make millions of dollars from that song, Kanye West did.

"They're young, free and partying and it would have just seemed like any other very popular rap song. So they sang along to it."

Chris Rock touched on the subject in a famous stand-up routine when he joked about his white friends not being "able to enjoy a Dr Dre song around me. So they start taking out the word or mumbling... it's a sad sight to see".

He also appeared to suggest it was all right for white people to dance or sing along to songs which included the word, but never for them to use it in their own speech.

"Don't worry white people. Get your Dre on, get your Jay-Z on, get your Kanye on. It's all good, it's okay. But it's got to be in the song. Got to be in the song."

But, he added: "So the question remains the same. Can white people say the [N-word]? And the answer remains the same: Not really."

While you'd be hard pushed to find someone who would think it appropriate for a white artist to use the N-word, some think that nobody should use it at all, regardless of race.

Broadcaster and writer Edward Adoo says: "It seems it's become acceptable now to use [the N-word].

"There's more reluctance to call people out: 'Let's let it lie and let people do what they want.'

"When my black friends use it I feel uncomfortable, it feels rude, and if a white person says it, it's degrading."

He adds: "I think the N-word should be treated in the same context as anti-Semitic speak. Any derogatory term should be classed in the same category."

And he criticizes those from within the industry.

"People in hip-hop and in the black community have fueled the fire and don't admit the word is wrong. It's down to education, it's ignorance, people who don't seem to care."

And he has no truck with black artists who say they are reclaiming the word.

"You know, people suffered, so how are you reclaiming it? It's a matter of stupidity."

"In terms of reaching out to the next generation, it doesn't bode well because if Kendrick says it [then people think] 'I can say it.'"

He adds that he's been criticised by his own community for his stance.

"People have called me out for being a sell-out," he says.

Journalist and blogger Jessica Noah Morley agrees with Adoo.

"If you don't want people to sing an offensive word, it should not be sung or included in the song in the first place," she says.

"If you are in a position of power, or in this case, a position whereby fans are likely to repeat the words you put out, don't put them out if you don't want them repeated. I believe that the N-word shouldn't be used by anyone point blank."

She added: "I think it is hypocritical to sing a word and berate a white person who has repeated the very words in the context in which they were sung.

"We, myself included, have to be careful about being hypocritical and implementing a double standard when it comes to race relations. The N-word is, and will always be, offensive, no matter who says it."

Should white people ever sing the N-word?

A white fan was booed off stage for singing the N-word at a Kendrick Lamar gig

www.bbc.com

Kpop takes inspiration from the black community, and I believe what differentiates appropriation vs appreciation is being knowledge and doing research on the culture/music you're borrowing from.

At that time, the company failed to provide these contexts and resources to the trainees. I'm not entirely sure how old the girlies were when those were recorded; nonetheless, the company should encourage and provided them with the proper materials to help them understand context (then again, companies only care about the money).

Now, if BP members were dropping these present day: that's on the artist.

Personally, I'm not upset at the girlies for dropping the n word during trainee days. Different culture, time, and education. I am, once again, disappointed by the company.

This falls heavily on YG imo. Every generation there is a video of trainees singing the n word in lyrics. I am not going to name the trainees but having this happen from generation 2-5 is heavily on the company imo. It's a very bad look for YG who is the big 4 company that is heavily influenced by black culture. So, to me it doesn't seem like they appreciate black culture, and fall more in line of appropriation because their only using black culture for profit and aesthetics.

Onto the idols, I am unsure how to fully blame them because they might not know the weight of the n word. I am unsure if we should expect teenagers from southeast asia and AUS/NZ to fully know the power of the word. I still think they should somewhat know because if you're going to be performing a song you might want to look up certain words. I am just unsure we should fully expect teenagers to know. I wasn't fully following kpop back then but I am sure there are moments where the use of n word got idols in trouble so it does feel at least YG should know not to use the word or teach idols about the word. Again, a lot of this falls on YG and other kpop companies if this issue happens during trainee days.

The tolerance level for that word being used by non-black people will always vary. As a black person, I fully understand if a person is done with an idol for using it because the hurt for that word will always vary. I just think a company like YG should know better due to being around forever and have seen the controversy surrounding the word. So, them being ignorant and not changing process is a red flag imo. So it fully falls into the topic of culture appreciation vs culture appreciation.

I just hope people aren't going to use this as a gotcha moment because they don't like certain idols. I think kpop fans do that too much because they usually don't care about issues and want to use stuff as gotcha moments. We all saw what happened with Israel/Palestine issue where they didn't really for Palestinians and used starbucks and other brands to attack idols they don't like.Sadly, that's usually the case when stuff like this happen.

I agree that sending them threats and hateful messages is completely wrong!

I just wish companies were more eager to allow their idols to actually apologize... though I think it's been getting a bit better in that regard.

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

To me, the larger issue is how many idols that supposedly love hip-hop and studied it don't ever come away from or with more than a superficial understanding of it just being about "swag" and "flexing"

You're studying to be a rapper, you speak English and it never occurs to look up the one word you don't know that comes up frequently? Or understand the endless songs about racism and the black experience

This is a gripe I have with KHH and idol rappers in general. Love our rhythm but not our blues.

That being said, I don't think trainees singing it is that deep. Mostly funny

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Agreed

That's the major issue when this comes up. It seems logically if you see a word frequently used you will look it up. It's like when we see or hear slang we usually look it up if it's used frequently. I am sure there's many times we look up certain slang or acronyms if we see or hear it often. It feels no different with the n word where you would think if studying rap they would look up the word.

Quote from SooYoung

cuz we use the term "personne de couleur" which means "colored people"

Kind of weird because this is considered racist/offensive in the US.