Do you think Red Velvet was a mid tier group during third generation?

    Was Red Velvet a mid tier group? 52

    1. Yes (9) 17%
    2. No (43) 83%

    A couple Onces vzal and TheBotter, and my good friend, ISaidISaid , are adamant that Red Velvet were a mid tier group. The crux of their argument is that they didn't sell as many albums as Twice or have as big of a fandom, so that makes them mid tier.


    I find that argument ridiculous. Third generation K-Pop is easily when I was most active as a fan, and literally never have I seen anyone trying to argue RV wasn't top tier during third generation.


    2nd Generation had WonSoKa


    3rd Generation had Twice/BP/RV/MMM/GF


    That's not a controversial or new take.


    But I have Onces trying to argue that RV is mid tier because they didn't make as much money as Twice and BlackPink.


    Lol.


    Imagine saying the third biggest girl group of a generation was MID TIER.


    But I digress. Let's poll it.

    No, but they aren't top tier. They are like an A tier group rather than say a B or S tier.


    Nothing justifies putting them at the very top of the ladder, but that doesn't mean they are mid tier either overall, by current standards however, in the here and now, they are likely below mid tier.

    Do you people not know what we consider mid tier groups?


    That's groups like OMG/Lovelyz/WJSN


    THOSE are mid tier groups.


    Do you not understand how tiers work?


    There can still be a gap between items placed in the same tier.


    Moreover, the gap between Red Velvet and the competition digitally isn't even that big in Korea. Who had the biggest song in Korea in 2017 and 2019?


    The logic used to claim Red Velvet is mid tier can be applied to groups like 2NE1, Wonder Girls and IVE.


    IVE haven't sniffed Billboard and their Spotify numbers are exponentially worse than NewJeans. That doesn't mean they're not top tier.


    Wonder Girls has nowhere close to the fandom size or album sales of SNSD, but that doesn't mean they weren't top tier.


    The logic doesn't logic.

    I would say the "top" is about 3-5 groups, so in that case I guess they where a top tier group. That don't mean they are at the same lever as Twice or BP, but they are still among the top. Red Velvet is a bit between late 2nd generation and 3rd generation so they kind of competing against groups like SISTAR och Girls' Generation in the early years

    Lol. Everybody have to think like you, otherwise is wrong? Come on girl.

    Quote from patrik-k

    I would say the "top" is about 3-5 groups, so in that case I guess they where a top tier group. That don't mean they are at the same lever as Twice or BP, but they are still among the top. Red Velvet is a bit between late 2nd generation and 3rd generation so they kind of competing against groups like SISTAR och Girls' Generation in the early years

    Red Velvet is definitely 3rd generation, along with Mamamoo. 2014 was the humble beginnings, and by the end of 2015, the 3rd generation momentum was impossible to ignore. By 2016, the third generation girl groups were easily the most popular in the industry.


    And if anyone here went back in time to 2016 and said Red Velvet was mid tier, they would get roasted with a heat surpassing the fiercest hellfire.


    I would know. I fought with third gen girl group fans all the time.

    Quote from OnceMidzy4ever

    Lol. Everybody have to think like you, otherwise is wrong? Come on girl.

    My opinion is based on facts and experiences, not some overwhelming need to put my favorite group on a pedestal.


    We all know Twice and BlackPink were the most popular. That doesn't mean Red Velvet was some mid tier quality group. They had massive hits, sold over 100k albums per comeback when that was considered the gold standard, and they've remained digitally relevant for a DECADE.


    I've even BEEN to Korea during the 3rd generation peak, and I can personally speak to seeing RV everywhere. You wouldn't believe how many times I heard Rookie being played on repeat it seemed in some of the most popular shopping districts in Korea.


    So, yes, someone telling me THAT group is mid tier is ludicrous and I won't accept it.

    Quote from YamaChwan

    Red Velvet is definitely 3rd generation, along with Mamamoo. 2014 was the humble beginnings, and by the end of 2015, the 3rd generation momentum was impossible to ignore. By 2016, the third generation girl groups were easily the most popular in the industry.


    And if anyone here went back in time to 2016 and said Red Velvet was mid tier, they would get roasted with a heat surpassing the fiercest hellfire.


    I would know. I fought with third gen girl group fans all the time.

    Well, I have the opinion the 3rd generation for GG started with Twice and BP so in that case they are not a "pure" 3rd generation group, but as I say, I count them as a late 2nd/very early 3rd generation group, so it does not really matter much.

    Yeah, well I said they where a top tier group becauce they where among the 3-5 top groups, so I think we agree on that.

    Quote from killthisfenty

    I can accept MMM but Griend they had one successful year like let’s be serious even OMG is above them.

    Brah.


    Gfriend had a humongous year in 2015. Me Gustas Tu was HUGE. And in 2016, you could easily make an argument for GFriend being as popular as Twice. Digitally, Rough and Cheer Up were comparable just like Ditto and I Am.


    2017 is when the decline started, but GFriend's peak warrants their inclusion.


    Anyone who was around for those years wouldn't dismiss GFriend like that.

    Quote from YamaChwan

    Who had the biggest song in Korea in 2017 and 2019?

    In 2019 itzy with dalla dalla for ggs. Dalla dalla has 920M on circle. I don't think psycho reached that? Psycho did very well nevertheless especially given the flop streak they had going on before that.

    In 2017 bp's aiiyl was as big as red flavour at that time and now bigger.Aiiyl ends up charting every summer on circle for few weeks. Charting this week itself for some reason. Also what about rolling?

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    Quote from YamaChwan

    That's groups like OMG/Lovelyz/WJSN

    Wjsn is low mids. Wjsn only have album sales and let's be real it's nothing great. OMG were top gg in sk for 2020-21 but nothing after that.

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    Quote from atropos

    In 2019 itzy with dalla dalla for ggs. Dalla dalla has 920M on circle. I don't think psycho reached that? Psycho did very well nevertheless especially given the flop streak they had going on before that.

    In 2017 bp's aiiyl was as big as red flavour at that time and now bigger.Aiiyl ends up charting every summer on circle for few weeks. Charting this week itself for some reason. Also what about rolling?

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    Wjsn is low mids. Wjsn only have album sales and let's be real it's nothing great. OMG were top gg in sk for 2020-21 but nothing after that.

    Timing is the only reason Psycho wasn't top in 2019. It dropped at the end of the year. I counted it as 2019, because that's technically when the song dropped.


    I made a thread about Red Flavor months ago. Most agree it's close but it was the biggest song of 2017.


    That's two years where RV are in the conversation for biggest girl group song of the year in Korea. That's not mid tier group behavior.


    Mid tier groups are ecstatic just to hit #1 on the charts once. Red Velvet did that nearly every comeback in their peaks. Their digital longevity is also second only to BlackPink, despite being the second oldest top 3rd gen group.

    Quote from TheBotter

    OP asking for opinions and proceeds to tell us why our opinions are wrong because they don't lineup with his arbitrary definition of mid tier. Like it seems OP thinks it's top-mid-bottom and everything has to fit into those restrictions lol.

    I'm a tyrannical dictator.


    Deal with it ;judgingpepe:


    I speak for the people based on the results so far

    I mean in 2020 OMG had the biggest kchart hit among ggs but I don't think anyone still considered them top tier.

    And no psycho 2019+2020 charting included didn't out pace dalla dalla unless I am wrong. But charts did undergo changes from 2019 to 2020 so maybe it got affected? Anyways the difference isn't much.

    Their longevity is good but not enough to put them in high tier. And I'd say it doesn't exist anymore after the release of birthday unless they can put out a sustainable song on chart.

    The truth is if I were to compare bp/twice with rv, rv does look like a high mid tier. Like the gap is huge in every metric. That's what these people mean.

    ✿༺ 𝒲𝒪𝒩𝒴𝒪𝒰𝒩𝒢 ༻✿

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    Like 1
  • AllKill VIP
  • AllKill VIP

    That’s nice and all but still doesn’t make them on the same level as other top groups who 2 years later and at the the end of 3rd gen they weren’t even comparable with anymore like twice and blackpink so I understand both takes. Personally I think that makes them high mid tier

    NewJeans é envolvido em nova polêmica com o MV de “OMG” | Revista KoreaIN

    Edited 4 times, last by lialve ().

  • AllKill VIP

    The fact that the term “mid” turned into this slang word that means “poor” or “unimpressive” really got people confused on what this really means.


    Sometimes I dislike modern slang for this very reason. It causes confusion to a language that’s already confusing, a language that’s universally used by tons of different countries, continents, and cultures around the world. Stuff is bound to get misconstrued due to language barriers as well as context that’s lost in translation.


    I almost thought these users were calling Red Velvet a “mid” group in the disrespectful sense of the definition, but they’re really just saying RV is somewhere in the middle of the scale when it comes to rankings.


    Personally, I’m not a fan of numbers for anything, but I respect their opinion. I care more about the societal impact and musical influence these groups generate. RV has proven time after time they can still chart and resonate with listeners. Thats how I’d evaluate them as opposed to sales, especially when any highly motivated fandom can rally to artificially boost those numbers.


    But if you’re only looking at the money they generate alone, you can’t argue against those users’ claim. They’re right in that sense. It’s just a one-dimensional and boring way to look at it when evaluating groups.

    Twice debuted almost at the end of the year, so while LOA was a flop, it managed to chart at 16 on Gaon year end charts above me gusta tu, Cheer up was ranked 1 song of the year, rough 3, TT 26 despite being released in 2016.

    Add the fact Twice was basically moving like a BG with Twicecoaster among the best selling albums in 2016.

    Gfriend prime lasted only a year so no.

    Quote from killthisfenty

    Twice debuted almost at the end of the year, so while LOA was a flop, it managed to chart at 16 on Gaon year end charts above me gusta tu, Cheer up was ranked 1 song of the year, rough 3, TT 26 despite being released in 2016.

    Add the fact Twice was basically moving like a BG with Twicecoaster among the best selling albums in 2016.

    Gfriend prime lasted only a year so no.

    2015 to 2016, with numbers second only to Twice. That's a really, really high peak. GFriend was incredibly over with the public at a level fee girl groups get to enjoy. I have the numbers to prove that, but I'm too busy at work to do my usual stat dump.


    Having been so deep in the K-Pop rabbit hole during all of third generation, even though GF fell off the fastest and hardest, I'll always give them their respect for how massive they were during the Glass Beads/Me Gustas Tu/Rough/Navillera era.


    They were the first third gen girl group to get a PAK. They deserve their flowers.

    If you wish to categorize every group by tier, with a different tier for every level of success, then you'll need a lot more than just 3 tiers (high, mid, low.) So say whatever you want about Twice or BP being more successful, but there's no logical justification for calling the third most successful 3rd gen girl group "mid tier."

    The 3rd biggest group out of the 50-100 active ggs we had in the 3rd gen is definitely not mid tier, it doesn't make sense.

    I guess the argument of the other people is that they don't belong to the "S" tier BP and Twice are, and they're right, but RV would be right below, to word it as if they're "mid" tier is a bad choice of words imo.

    Like you said Lovelyz/WJSN/Momoland... were the considered mid tier back then, RV was way above that. I guess there's also many people that weren't into kpop back then.


    After all it's not that deep, the other side's point probably simply was that BP and Twice>>RV, and that's true.

    Quote from uwuwu-98

    The 3rd biggest group out of the 50-100 active ggs we had in the 3rd gen is definitely not mid tier, it doesn't make sense.

    I guess the argument of the other people is that they don't belong to the "S" tier BP and Twice are, and they're right, but RV would be right below, to word it as if they're "mid" tier is a bad choice of words imo.

    Like you said Lovelyz/WJSN/Momoland... were the considered mid tier back then, RV was way above that. I guess there's also many people that weren't into kpop back then.


    After all it's not that deep, the other side's point probably simply was that BP and Twice>>RV, and that's true.

    Just like NJ >>>> IVE, aespa, GIDLE and LSF, but we still consider them top tier


    These people keep acting like I'm arguing RV was as popular as Twice and BP, which shows a fundamental flaw in their understanding of how tiers work.


    Even within each tier, there can be gaps between each entry. I know what they're trying to say, but the arguments from vzal were so horrendously bad and contradicted by looking at how we ranked the top groups from other generations

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