Do you think that some kpop idols shouldn't be called "artists"?

yes and all "artists" who just do reference studies from existing pictures or paintings, should not be called artists either, just copycats cause they're just copying right?

Quote from fantasygoose

Well... as I was making this thread, I was like "Wait, isn't performing considered an art?"

Like there is something called "performing arts"

Yup. Performing is an art in itself. There are Actors and Actresses who get critically acclaimed for their art of acting without ever writing a script.

I think the same can be said for musical artists. Their voice, their body movement, their spoken word are all art they perform and provide! Hence they are artists!

In my opinion, being an real artist is more than compose, It's about how you see art and how much It's important to your self-expression. An artist can express themselves through their lyrics and production, true, but also through singing interpretation, through their dancing, through a connection with the instrument they play, for example. If you do with passion and sincerity, then no one can say you are not an artist

If you wanna be really technical about it I'd agree with what you've said.I feel like most people use that term without really thinking of the significance anyway,it's simply used to pertain to a k-pop celebrity.I never understood why people got triggered by this in the first place.

Performing is an art, not every idol is great or passionate obviously but trying to put down non composing/writing idols just because is pretty offensive imo. idk how other dancers, singers, actors, etc support that just because they don't like particular idols

Question for you all as a violinist.

Do you consider violinists artist/musicians? Most of us don't write/compose our own music, we just play what we are given. Similarily to some kpop idols(saying some because more and more kpop idols are starting to write their own lyrics).

In my opinion, they are still artists.

The definition of an artist is the following

A person who practices any of the various creating arts, such as a sculptor, novelist, poet, or filmaker etc.

A person skilled at a particular task or occupation.

In both definitions the categories are not specified.

Many overlook the 2nd definition I listed, it is actually the general definition for artist in the music world.

Meaning, you can be a singer, dancer, rapper that doesn't write your own lyrics but are still considered an artist because you are skiled at a particular task/occupation and you practice singing, dancing, and rapping.

Unfortuently, many industries overlook the fact that technically you are still an artist without writing your own work. You are creating the voices of a song, the movements of a dance etc.

This is one of the reasons why in some cases I like the Indian music industry better(well, atleast the old industry).

In India,(specifically where I come from). Singers are not expected write their own pieces, they are expected to sing. Because by singing they are creating art. I personally agree with this notion.

Quote from quarkie

I mean you are very much an author if you've written a short story. That sounds like something a gatekeeping asshole would say.

I mean if singers aren't artists then I guess actors aren't either cause they're just reading something someone wrote. Neither are musicians in orchestras or ballerinas.

question though, can you still be a author if you don't officially publish it???

If Korean make the difference between Idols & Artist guess wich answer is the good one.

Idols are not artists, they're idols. Some of them become artist with timebut these are rare things especially among women. Also it's not shamefull to be an "idols".

To me, if you're performing an art, whether that's singing, dancing, composing, rapping, whatever, you're an artist. A lot of people who disagree with this just throw that word around for fan wars and to shade people.

The number of times I've seen things like this said:

"MY FAVE writes all their lyrics, they're a true ARTIST, they care more and work harder than your flop fave wah wah wah" but you'll never see them dragging famous western performers for not writing their songs.

Idols like 99% of all pop stars, are entertainers and performers. If you consider performing an art, then yes they are artists.

Now, if you define artists as someone who creates by composing songs, choreographing dances, directing MVs, etc, then the list of actual Kpop idols who are artists is probably down to a handful. Just cause you have credits on a song dont make you an artist under this definition if there are 582045 other people on the credit line. The only artists under this definition that i know of are the members of Day6 who compose, 3RACHA, Suga, and Soyeon. In the West, it's pretty much Olivia, i dunno if Taylor still actually does the work herself anymore like she did in the past.

classical musicians, ballerinas, broadway performers, opera singers, etc.

they all perform pre-existing materials and do not produce anything new.

hence they are not artists under your definition.

dumb definitions -> dumb answers

Quote from fantasygoose

I mean idols that "only sing, rap and dance" shouldn't called "artists"?

Like if those idols haven't "created" anything.

Well... it is common for people to say "kpop artists" about kpop idols.

This thread is mostly inspired by something I have heard some say, talking mostly about Western "artists".

This person said something like "Some musical 'artists' shouldn't be called artists, because they don't write songs, they only sing."

Do you think only idols, who compose, write lyrics etc... should be considered artists?

By that logic ATEEZ's Hongjoong is considered an artist because he has written lyrics to a lot of ATEEZ's songs and has also composed some of them. (I made a thread once about the songs, he composed.)

I wouldn't deny he is an artist though.

Also because he reforms clothes, which I would consider art.

Mingi would be consider an artist too, because he has also written lyrics for a lot ATEEZ songs.

Well... all the members of ATEEZ have written the lyrics to their pre-debut song "From".

But maybe some people wouldn't consider some of the members "artists" because they only wrote ONE song.

Which reminds me of something I have heard someone say about authors, like "Just because you have written a short story once, it doesn't mean you're an author."

Well... as I was making this thread, I was like "Wait, isn't performing considered an art?"

Like there is something called "performing arts"

I made this thread because I wanted to start a random discussion.

Display More

yea, but at the same time no.

Quote from ultraaviolet

everything is centered

I tried to read but gave up......

Hack to get around that:

Quote the text, then highlight it, and change the alignment.

Quote from Ves

In my eyes, if you are actively involved in any aspect of giving life to art, you are an artist.

The dictionary seems to agree

Screen Shot 2021-12-08 at 3.06.07 PM.png

The dictionary never lies

If you go by Merriam-Webster's definition, an artist can be any of these:

so based off no. 2 and 3, the answer is yes.

I think the majority of them aren't artists. That's why I can usually be found using the word "act" in place of "artist."

Quote from BlackpinkHouse

i dunno if Taylor still actually does the work herself anymore like she did in the past

She does and she's always praised by the people who work with her on how she does almost pretty much everything and they just need to do the bare minimum.

I think they created art. Adding emotions and interpreting singing and dancing in your way is indeed still art.

Performance doesn’t exist in vacuum.

This is why classical musicians who never make their own music are still artists. There is skill and artistry in performance as well.

And tbh I don’t really find the lack luster singer/performers with credits for writing two cringe lines in their songs more artistic than extremely good vocalists who honed their art to perfection.

It all really depends. I think skill level important to be recognized as an artist on my personal scale.

I personally don’t consider a lot of idols artists because they’re not skilled enough. Not because they aren’t song writers. Song writing is just one skill.

Quote from BlackpinkHouse

Idols like 99% of all pop stars, are entertainers and performers. If you consider performing an art, then yes they are artists.

Now, if you define artists as someone who creates by composing songs, choreographing dances, directing MVs, etc, then the list of actual Kpop idols who are artists is probably down to a handful. Just cause you have credits on a song dont make you an artist under this definition if there are 582045 other people on the credit line. The only artists under this definition that i know of are the members of Day6 who compose, 3RACHA, Suga, and Soyeon. In the West, it's pretty much Olivia, i dunno if Taylor still actually does the work herself anymore like she did in the past.

she still does everything herself. if she has writers at most it's three and she still writes the original work herself. she does not write with random people- it's her boyfriend joe and the two producers/very close friends that she built a studio and quarantined with (jack antonoff and aaron dessner)

Quote from quarkie

I mean you are very much an author if you've written a short story. That sounds like something a gatekeeping asshole would say.

I mean if singers aren't artists then I guess actors aren't either cause they're just reading something someone wrote. Neither are musicians in orchestras or ballerinas.

I mean, I agree with you but the actor analogy is just not it. Some singers, especially those who don't write/compose their own songs, have demos while actors do not have a "guideline" on how to act a certain scene from a script. Like, you can give a scene to different actors and they'll be performing differently.

A real artist isn’t just all about the lyrical component, being skilled in many areas of it is considered as a real artist. You can still be good at writing but suck at other skills which are also important.

Quote from quarkie

Actors can definitely get guidance from the script as well as the director. Songs can be reinterpreted by different singers.

Dolly Parton's version of Jolene is not the same as Miley Cyrus's version of Jolene and it's not the same as Jack White's version of Jolene.

We are talking about idols here, aren't we? I acknowledge musical reinterpretation but that is a luxury idols can barely get their hands on and that is not the same with their actor counterparts.

PS: I Will Always Love You is the best example that OG versions aren't always the best.

Quote from BlackCat

We are talking about idols here, aren't we? I acknowledge musical reinterpretation but that is a luxury idols can barely get their hands on and that is not the same with their actor counterparts.

PS: I Will Always Love You is the best example that OG versions aren't always the best.

Same can also be said about the degree at which idols are writers. Usually credited along with many producers. Unclear on how much they contributed. Getting credits even for a few verses . And unlike many other true song writers they release music like clocks work dozens upon dozens of songs a year etc.

So yeah sure skill is an important component of judging artistry. But this is true for singing as much as it is for song writing.

Quote from Ves

If you're going for threadmaker of the month, you actually have to be the OP

thank you i'll keep that in mind!

but this is a good discussion though, it's interesting seeing others viewpoints but i'm glad there's been no dragging or anything like that

Quote from Tic_tac_toe

Same can also be said about the degree at which idols are writers. Usually credited along with many producers. Unclear on how much they contributed. Getting credits even for a few verses . And unlike many other true song writers they release music like clocks work dozens upon dozens of songs a year etc.

So yeah sure skill is an important component of judging artistry. But this is true for singing as much as it is for song writing.

Like what I have said before, I agree with the sentiment of the majority. I just don't agree with the actor analogy because they have more freedom when it comes to interpretation.

Quote from BlackCat

Like what I have said before, I agree with the sentiment of the majority. I just don't agree with the actor analogy because they have more freedom when it comes to interpretation.

The analogy is right. Acting is not inherently more artistic than singing. It depends on the artist. One skill is not inherently more artistic than another. Goes for acting, singing, song writing.

Quote from Tic_tac_toe

The analogy is right. Acting is not inherently more artistic than singing. It depends on the artist. One skill is not inherently more artistic than another. Goes for acting, singing, song writing.

I never said otherwise, but we are talking about idols here. I believe they don't have the luxury of interpreting a song differently from a demo. I'd gladly be proven otherwise though.

Quote from BlackCat

I never said otherwise, but we are talking about idols here. I believe they don't have the luxury of interpreting a song differently from a demo. I'd gladly be proven otherwise though.

You kind of did though? We are talking about the analogy. And the analogy is based on a good actor and a good singer. A good singer has their interpretation of a songwriter’s vision and a good actor has their interpretation of the director and script writers vision.

There are actors who don’t really add much and singer who don’t really add much and that’s not really particularly relevant to the analogy itself.

Clearly when we talk we are all talking about our own favs whom we consider skilled.

This is an issue only in Kpop, which has got the new concept of "idol", otherwise they are all artists - either creating or performing, or both.

Since kpop got"idol", a mix of singer, dancer, model, acting mostly as a part of a group, typically through a contractual trainee system, it gets complicated.

I would go for they are all artists, idols are a sub set of artists.

Quote from Tic_tac_toe

You kind of did though? We are talking about the analogy. And the analogy is based on a good actor and a good singer. A good singer has their interpretation of a songwriter’s vision and a good actor has their interpretation of the director and script writers vision.

There are actors who don’t really add much and singer who don’t really add much and that’s not really particularly relevant to the analogy itself.

Clearly when we talk we are all talking about our own favs whom we consider skilled.

Yes, we are talking about the analogy on a thread whether to call idols artists or not. So my whole argument is solely based on that premise.

I'm not talking about my favs, particularly. I was talking about idols who sing songs based on a demo. Now if you believe that they have the power to interpret the song differently from the demo then let's just agree to disagree. If we were talking about a different industry and not kpop then I would have agreed with you.

I mean... singing, rapping, and dancing are all considered an art so that technically makes all kpop idols artists. The only reason to deny this would be if someone wants to put down the rest of idols and put their own faves up on a pedestal

Quote from BlackCat

Yes, we are talking about the analogy on a thread whether to call idols artists or not. So my whole argument is solely based on that premise.

I'm not talking about my favs, particularly. I was talking about idols who sing songs based on a demo. Now if you believe that they have the power to interpret the song differently from the demo then let's just agree to disagree. If we were talking about a different industry and not kpop then I would have agreed with you.

And even then I disagree with you.

In Indian classical music it is seen as the greatest respect to faithfully sing the song as per the original. A lot of classical music is still this.

Even without any interpretation, performance of itself is artistic.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say… that signing with a demo can’t be compared to acting which doesn’t make sense or are you saying signing with a demo is not art.

Anway both statements I do not agree with.