Group bullying is one of the main reasons why KPOP groups need a strong leader

Sometimes the role of a leader seemed kind of useless to me. Besides organizing people's opinions and helping make decisions, it didn't seem like a huge role.

But it is. I can see that now, I've always seen it for a while, but now more than ever.

Have you noticed most of the bullying cases happened in groups where the leader was a bully too?

AOA.

Also- April.

Somin was clearly also rude to Hyunjoo and the others followed suit. Hyunjoo's brother named Somin and you can see Somin being a bit cold to Hyunjoo on camera, she even pinched her once, but I'm sure way worse went on off camera. I'm inclined to believe Hyunjoo. There are quite a few moments of the other members being standoffish to Hyunjoo on camera. Like Hyunjoo was pretending to eat food once but pretending she's picking up food with her chopsticks, while they are waiting for their food to arrive, and Jinsol watches her and says "what the f***?" to Naeun. Many clips of members glaring at her too. It always looked more like the girls were laughing at her than with her. And do you think any of this would have happened if Somin was a really fair and kind leader and treated Hyunjoo very well? I doubt it. The other girls would have behaved differently knowing the leader won't stand for rudeness. Korea follows a major age hierarchy system.

It's one of the reasons why I never suspect bullying in TWICE. Not only do most of the members have rather passive personalities (passive doesn't mean weak, just means not overly assertive or confrontational), but also Jihyo would never stand for any misbehavior. The other unnies like Jeongyeon and Nayeon wouldn't either.

Quote from harambelives

As we've seen leaders can be involved or passive in bullying. So even if there a strong leader who's to say they aren't part of the problem too?

I think a bigger role should be on companies. If a idol says they're being bullied then they should look into it properly instead of handwave boys/girls will be boys/girls. That sort of scenario happens in schools where teachers are aware or told about bullying but they don't act on and if they do often the punishments are very weak like a couple days suspension. That does nothing to sort the situation and only keeps the victim in pain. If companies have a zero tolerance policy then a lot these problems won't continue and the victim at least has a way out of their predicament instead of silently suffering for years and years

Quote from nana18

The problem isn't in the leader the problem is with the company letting this type of things happening with their groups

That's of course true too but I was speaking in addition to that. The role of the company and managers has always seemed the most important to me. I was speaking of my newer discovery- recently, I've come to see that the leader plays a big role too. I never said the company isn't responsible or that the leader trumps the company.

The company is undoubtedly the most responsible. Knowing tensions can arise within a group, it's up to the managers to check on all the members and help anyone if they need help.

But I don't agree with saying that the problem isn't the leader. No, with Korea's age and power hierarchy I do believe that a kind, fair and caring leader is essential to a group.

"As we've seen leaders can be involved or passive in bullying. So even if there a strong leader who's to say they aren't part of the problem too?"

But that's exactly what I'm saying. The leaders who are involved or passive in bullying aren't strong leaders. To be a strong leader is not to be simply assertive.

It is to be kind, caring and have a high moral standard.

I would honestly doubt bullying in a group where the leader is the kind that I just described.

It helps set the tone for the group and establishes the group dynamic.

Twice have time and time again attributed one of the reasons for why they barely argue as a group to Jihyo's ability to gather all the girls' opinions on something, organize it and mediate discussions.

Unrelated, but I do feel if SNSD had a leader who really relished the role, the group dynamic might have been a bit different. As we know, Taeyeon offically stepped down from the leader role early on and didn't enjoy it much and didn't feel they really need one as most of the members are the same age. She said she's not overly assertive and it was hard for her.

Now, I really like Taeyeon and it's fine if she didn't want to be the leader. I think it's absolutely silly and rubbish that they give it to the person with the first birthday anyway. It should be given to the one who really wants the leader role and whom the other members vote for as well.

Taeyeon was never the enforcing type. She wasn't the kind to enforce things a certain way or establish rules. She's a bit more independent and free-spirited, along with being quite opinionated and stubborn I think.

The job of a leader is also to mediate between the other members and prevent arguments from getting out of hand.

Now, I don't believe that the weight of it all falls on Taeyeon (or any leader) alone. Obviously, it is up to everyone.

But I do think when a leader is more of an enforcer (in a good way), more likely to check on all of the members and set rules and organize opinions and basically, in short, someone who enjoys managing people, then it really can help the group.

All of SNSD is getting along fine except for Jessica.

And I don't believe that is Taeyeon's fault as a I said. I think things went on behind the scenes both from SNSD's side and Jessica's side.

But as we've seen, from 2011-2013 Taeyeon and Jessica had a bit of a fall-out. I do not think this fall out was directly related to Jessica's departure (the two had become friendlier with each other in 2014). But, it did say something about the group dynamic. Jessica would try to interact with Taeyeon in front of fans but Taeyeon would not reciprocate. We don't know what went on behind the scenes. Maybe Taeyeon was really hurt by something and could not fake her feelings. We can't say who was in the wrong. But for the sake of being a little professional and for the sake of the group dynamic (makes things a little awkward for the other members too), one could behave in a more friendly and polite manner even if something's going with their group member.

I do think the group dynamic of the other girls with Jessica might be just a tad different if Sunny had been the leader. But I can't say.

And I am a fan of all the members individually. I like Taeyeon and Jessica a lot especially. I just find it strange how they pretend they never had 9 members. It seems almost silly and immature.

Quote from sleeplessnights

In theory yes, but in practice most of the leaders will be around 18 to 25 years old when the role is officially given. I don't think there are many trainees who are natural leaders. It's basically the luck of the draw.

Leadership can be taught, but I don't think many receive proper classes for that. Most managers may not be that qualified and are not well paid in the first place. Directors and CEO may just treat trainees as commodities and each one may have special treatment depending on their individual situation. I don't think many agencies have very regimented organizations. It may be just dog eats dog kinda internal competition as well.

I think most leaders just learn as it goes and some may be mature enough to manage the team while some may not care or even abuse their position which is pretty common in any hierarchic structures.

In JYP, if I take their words for what it is, they say they focus on character (although it may be more about star presence, but for Koreans star presence means being decent people as well), not just talent and looks. I mean, even badly managed groups (like Miss A) don't seem to have any big enough animosity as far I've seen. They may have some seminars/workshops on how to behave and maybe leadership is part of it.

Now for anything outside big 3 it's just the wild west. Each place will run differently. Ideally from CEO to trainees, they should all be professionals, but the reality is even mid sized companies are barely professional.

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I believe that about JYP too. JYP has himself said he wanted to TWICE to be a healthy group- in mind especially. I do think they have been counseled in some way about how to behave with each other and about respect.

Quote from MrAkimo123

But what will happen if the leader is the one that causes the bully? Just asking your opinion and this is not related to any group

But that's why the leader can't just be anyone or can't just be the oldest member. The potential leader should undergo some training on how to be a good leader and the other members as well should be trained on how to respect each other and counseled. After that, its up to them.

So I think companies should evaluate characters and behaviors, not just skill. JYP seems to do that. They focus on character.

Somin and Jimin were never fit to be leaders. It shouldn't be based on age.

It's hard but if there's going to be a leader, that position shouldn't just be thrown out to someone who has no idea how to do it. They'll end up abusing it. Or they'll end up being a good leader. But a company shouldn't take that chance.

Quote from harambelives

Wait wait so letme get this straight. You think a strong leader would be one that strpops or prevents any bullying going and keeps them in line yet you single out Taeyeon as some sort of weak leader when all the evidence trough the years directly and categorically disputes your assumption of her.

Also need to clear up some misconceptions.

First Taeyeon never stepped down. She literally said onhee radio show that it was scripted or whatever and she will forever be SNSD leader. Nothing changed.

Second the SNSD v Jessica was never about the girls having problems with Jessica on a personal level, it was about her business and whatever issues SM had, that to this day no one outside the girls and Sm has any concrete idea on what went down. Everything is speculative. Jessica herself never bright up any mention of issues with the other members such as bullying as the reason why she was kicked out. Even if Taeyeon had some personal problems with Jessica, that never got in the way of the group (they were actually being all chummy and huggy in 2014 photos/events up to Jessica gate) as at the very least they were professional with each other in terms of the group. Otherwise you can bet Jessica would've certainly brought it up

Now SNSD as a group have gone though a ton. They're the most popular and successful gg in Korea ever, they changed kpop forever, helped put on the international stage and along the did a number of firsts and set records. They had the highest highs and at time she lowest lows. Yet through it all, even when half group is no longer in the same company they're still super close with each other (yesterday Tae, Soo and Hyo went to Tiff musical). As we've seen recently there are groups that don't last a quarter as long as SNSD and there is already bullying going on. Some from the beginning of their groups debut. But in 13 years SNSD never had a bullying issues. So by your own logic the should have a strong leader right?

Speaking of leader Tae herself has many times put the fans and group at the forefront. She always thanks fans, introduces herself as SNSD's Taeyeon and backs up SNSD and Sone, and even apologises to fans if she's in a scandal. She's regularly mentioned she loves her members to bits and epgets extremely lonely without them, one of the reasons why she doesn't promote as a solo. Her members have said she is always their leader and they follow what she says. In fact the members love and support Tae just as much (esp with her depression) as she does back. At times theyve taken care of her if she's getting unwell or taken the lead if there something they're better at (like sports or comedy).

BUT SNSD aren't a group of mindless drones who rely on their leader to do anything, they still know how to behave without relying on Tae to keep them in check. They don't need Tae to tell not to bully each other, they don't need her to tell them to hang out, they don't need her to live their own lives and son on. It's not like their all quiet and obedient either, SNSD has strong personality like Hyoyeon, Tiffany, Sooyoung, Sunny and they don't lord it up over the rest or undermine Taeyeon. Hell SNSD even forgoes the whole age seniority thing and just let the younger ones have a greater rule in the group because they're more of the trouble makers and the older members dote on them (even Seohyun can shit talk about her members, Seohyun who is super prim and proper).

I see the regular argument of if X was leader they would do a better job or if Y was. Imean how would you know? What makes a better leader? If under Taeyeon there hasn't been any bullying then if say under Sunny like you think should be leader there's also no bullying then what exactly was the reason to replace Taeyeon? It's "fixing" a problem that wasn't there. If another member wanted to be leader then they certainly could try BTS, like I said they have strong personalities but at the end of the day all members have always seen Tae as their leader so what would be the point?

You say Jihyo of Twoce wouldnt stand for bullying but other than your own assumptions of her as fan there's no 100% guarantee that she wouldn't? Maybe there was an issue and she stood by doing nothing, maybe she was the instigator, maybe there never was an issue. If you're eveidnce is simply your own assumptions and based on what you/fans have noticed within the group then I don't see why you look at SNSD and immediately assume Taeyeon must be a weak leader even though like Jihyo and Twice there hasn't been any bullying scandals. If anything going through all the highs and lows, lasting soon to be 14 years and still regularly being close with each shows Tae, by your own idea what a leader should be is in fact a strong leader.

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I never called Taeyeon a weak leader. Let's not make assumptions. I said she didn't relish the leader position. It's exactly what she said. Numerous times she stated it was hard for her and said she's a timid person and all of the members are the same age and it was hard for her to do that. Later perhaps things were different. But initally, I do remember those exact words coming out of her mouth on quite a few occasions, Strong Heart being one I think.

Nor did I say that there was bullying within SNSD. I don't believe I ever stated that or intimated that there was ever bullying within SNSD yet most of your reply is centered around refuting that. Having disagreements and conflicts doesn't go straight to bullying. Don't assume please. I said that there was clearly conflict between Jessica and Taeyeon, which I also said I believed was unrelated to Jessica leaving. But I do not believe it was just SM pushing Jessica out and the other members not playing a part in it at all. Did I say bullying? Nope. I never said it was personal either.

I'm not sure what else to say because your reply is mostly all about how bullying could have never happened within SNSD and how their present relationship with each other proves that...yet I never stated that bullying ever happened within SNSD.

I simply said that Taeyeon didn't relish the leader position (initally atleast), how she didn't hide her dislike for Jessica between 2011-2013, and how it is of my opinion that Sunny would be better suited for the leader role. But did I ever say that Taeyeon did a bad job as a leader? Nope. But does that mean she did the best job anyone in the group could have done? I don't think so. Obviously, there's no way to prove since the oppurtunity was only given to one member. But you don't need a crystal ball to have insights into each member's personality. I do think Sunny is more oriented towards a leadership role or perhaps Tiffany. The thing Taeyeon has that they often don't though is that she seems calmer. Me saying that things might have been a tad different if Sunny had been the leader instead of Taeyeon doesn't in any way immediately translate to me saying that Taeyeon did a bad job. But I do think the leader of the group sets precedent for how a group should treat each other and if Taeyeon was openly ignoring Jessica on camera for close to 2 years. it sends the message that it's okay for a leader to treat a member in a very personal way above a professional way. Obviously Taeyeon didn't throw tantrums and say "I don't want to sing with her on stage". She was slightly professional but she didn't seem professional enough. And if this was happening between any 2 members besides Taeyeon it might seem different. A leader ignoring a member on camera just doesn't look the best, regardless of whoever is in the wrong.

It all just makes me curious as to what actually happened between them. Regardless of even if it was Jessica who was in the wrong and Taeyeon was simply reacting to her, after a few weeks one should collect themselves as a leader and go back to maintaining normal contact with the member she dislikes in front of fans. That's all I feel. It's simple. But you took it out of proportion and turned it into potential bullying within SNSD, how there could never have been any bullying based on the way they treat each other today and how close they are and so on and on.

Taeyeon isn't an example of a bad kpop leader nor is SNSD an example of a group that has been behaved poorly with each other. Atleast not compared to many other groups there. I never stated she or they are the worst. I stated that I don't think the leader should automatically be the oldest member. It's silly.

You can agree to disagree without jumping to conclusions about what I said. I don't think Taeyeon was the most fit to be a leader out of SNSD. I do think TWICE Jihyo is the most naturally fit to be a leader in TWICE.

Quote from harambelives

Ok I agree you didn't explicitly say there was bullying in SNSD and whether Tae was part of in some way. But the thread is about bullying and you did say a strong leader should help prevent that. Then when you brought up Taeyeon and given then context of the thread I assumed you were trying to make a link a there. Apologies if I took the point and ran with it a bit too far.

But still I do have to disagree with most of your points. Sure Taeyeon and Jessica at times was hard to watch like at the same time they were still professional about it. We've seen recently how far idols behave BTS and how some have to suffer because of it but so far neither Taeyeon nor Jessica got up to any serious shit. And if anything did happen then surely one of them would've spoken up by now, particularly Jessica. But nothing. So other than pure speculation it's a moot point to assume they hated each and couldn't stand one another, maybe on camera they were awkward (Tae and Hyo are the self confessed awkward couple but you don't see any irritation between them for edample), maybe it's we just saw everything out of context or maybe they really did have problems. We simply don't know.

As for other members being leaders, like I said, there's no gauge for counts as a good leader. All the members like and respect Tae, she's a good speaker and a good entertainer (when she's feeling well). Imo that's hallmarks a of a good leader, I don't see what exactly someone else could bring to distguish themselves as being better.

You brought up Sunny. She's mentioned multiple times that she likes being on her own (she's more like a homebody with cats nowadays lol) and shes more hands off. On solo TV apps she's regularly been more mellow and less of the hectic SNSD member we've seen her as. Arguably you could say that this is Sunny true nature which would go against the usual strong leader types and is actually closer to Taeyeon in personality. Someone like Tiffany is more outspoken sure but let's not forget for years she was the weakest at Korean and often the but off jokes bceuase of it. Non fans looking on would simply see a person who can't even speak properly somehow attempt to take control of other strong willed girls and you can bet your house antis would have a field day with her, I mean they already think she's fake and puts on a happy go lucky personality and that's her being her. Having a leader be targeted that much would really affect her and maybe even affect peoples image of the group.

For all it's worth I think Taeyeon did and a fantastic job and Sones have seen SNSD dynamics enough that sure another member might bring something new to the table but there's no guarantee that it will anything radically different. After all like I said SNSD can function without a leader telling them exactly what to do so even if say Sunny was in change who's to say for example Hyo, Soo and Yuri don't get up to their usual mischief because if they do then nothing has fundamentally changed. It's still SNSD, they'll do things their way regardless of who the actual leader is.

I don't follow Twice so I don't know how Jihyo is but I could simply look for clips or whatever and find instances of other members doing better jobs or Jihyo herald not acting as expected of a true leader and then I could say X should be leader isntead. Imean from shows I've seen of them at times it seems like Nayeon is the more outspoken and out going character so I could argue she's more leader material in her than Jihyo.

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Yeah, you did remind me of a few things about Tiffany (she probably would not have been as respected on variety shows as Tae was because of her poor Korean). And perhaps Sunny arguably can be too youthful at times (in the early days at least). I do think Taeyeon had some really positive qualities to her like when they were all at an amusement part and I got to see some of her leadership skills- Sunny really wanted to ride a certain ride for the 3rd time and pouted and Taeyeon said they had to do other things all around the park but then she said "Okay we will ride it once more to appease you and then we will move onto other things". So I have seen Taeyeon make decisions with her members' desires at the forefront of her mind. And I do remember her being very empathetic to the staff eating on the floor and crying about it which is a nice trait to see from a leader. So I don't think she did a horrible job or anything. I was just quite surprised by the whole Taeyeon/Jessica freeze-out going on for so long. But I guess she just couldn't fake how she felt. And in some ways that is an admirable quality, to be transparent. But just coming from a leader, I guess it wasn't what I expected.

But I do think Taeyeon is super humble.

And I wasn't speaking from a place of bias either. I'm a fan of both SNSD and TWICE and my favorites in SNSD are Taeyeon (I find her relatable and like her personality and of couse vocals) and Jessica is also a favorite. In TWICE, I do really like Jihyo but I don't really have a favorite. It changes a lot. It's Mina right now.

Quote from gerrard174

a strong leader?

A strong leader like AOA Jimin is accused of being bully/ harsh towards member. How you draw the line between bully and just being strong leader?

She wasn't a strong leader. By strong I mean someone who is caring and morally upright while also being assertive. I do think managers and trainers get some insight into each person's personality during the training years. Even if not, I don't think the leader should be selected based on age with no leadership training. I think all trainees should be trained in behavior and conduct- how to treat people respectfully and confront situations they don't like and someone who shows an exemplary understanding of how to treat others and care for the group members should be picked as the leader. Obviously, it's not foolproof but it's better than just going with the oldest. Group members will confide in their leader more easily if there are difficulties than with their manager.