Yuehua Entertainment announces that EVERGLOW ’s contracts will expire in June with no renewals.

I heard A20 Ent is hiring, selfmate calling

Quote from BEG4DAWIN

We know that will be hard.

Depends. Itll be the first time group under Yuehua who want to take their name with them (that we know of).

Quote from autumnleaf_soshi

I heard A20 Ent is hiring, selfmate calling

For my information (and with all due respect to EG - they have some good songs) but are they profitable?

Quote from selfmate

For my information (and with all due respect to EG - they have some good songs) but are they profitable?

yes all you have to do is make them have a comeback and promote them, which something Yuehua forgot how to do

Quote from autumnleaf_soshi

yes all you have to do is make them have a comeback and promote them, which something Yuehua forgot how to do

comebacks cost money and promotions also cost money

if the costs of such exceed the revenue potential...

isn't that the reason why there is no renewal talk between the members and YH?

I can acknowledge that while there is maybe some mistreatment there is also the possibility that EG just weren't profitable (not matter how much YH promotes them???)

Quote from selfmate

comebacks cost money and promotions also cost money

if the costs of such exceed the revenue potential...

isn't that the reason why there is no renewal talk between the members and YH?

I can acknowledge that while there is maybe some mistreatment there is also the possibility that EG just weren't profitable (not matter how much YH promotes them???)

and that's where you come in Soo Man Lee, do your magic and make it make more money, don't you want that in your future resume? Think about it, a group relaunch by the 'King of K-Pop' making them more successful than Yuehua ever could

Quote from bartkun

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I know I remember seeing you post that thread

which is why in terms of contractual terms I don't have any issue with "unfair terms" per se but rather I would like to see more transparency in the accounting and numbers so artists know exactly how much was spent and how much they earned and what expenses are allocated to the artist etc etc

Quote from autumnleaf_soshi

and that's where you come in Soo Man Lee, do your magic and make it make more money, don't you want that in your future resume? Think about it, a group relaunch by the 'King of K-Pop' making them more successful than Yuehua ever could

I'm currently targeting NJZ...especially since

"HYBE chairman summoned to testify in Kakao founder's stock manipulation trial"

HYBE chairman summoned to testify in Kakao founder's stock manipulation trial

Bang Si-hyuk, chairman of entertainment giant HYBE, has been summoned to testify in the stock manipulation trial of Kakao founder Kim Beom-su, who is accused…

koreajoongangdaily.joins.com

Quote from bartkun

I think that some idols from smaller agencies should just get paid monthly just as regular workers

and get bonus when they have hit song or when they go viral and bag some cf

at least then at the end of contract they could have pretty nice amount of money on bank account

that's acceptable if the artist agrees to such terms

again with respect to contractual terms and transparency - if the artist were paid min wage with a bonus for exceeding x sales or hitting certain KPIs great - state it in the contract and then provide the artist with monthly/quarterly statement of accounts showing income and expenses and profit etc etc

If idols are expected to pay back all the money “invested” into them, then it’s not an investment, they are simply lending the idols money.

Quote from Bottles

If idols are expected to pay back all the money “invested” into them, then it’s not an investment, they are simply lending the idols money.

The whole system is predatory. This case is heartbreaking because it's not the girls fault their company decided to spend above their means. Idols shouldn't be on the hook for that. There needs to be a better system because majority of groups don't end up generating enough revenue to pay off debts/loan early.

Or just separate production from promotions activities. Not exactly like Attrakt/The Givers, but the production company owns the brand, but a promo company is contracted to carry out promoting a group.

Quote from BIGnorBANG

Or just separate production from promotions activities. Not exactly like Attrakt/The Givers, but the production company owns the brand, but a promo company is contracted to carry out promoting a group.

but why would you separate them out which logistically will cost more money no?

I mean the more companies involved in the entire supply chain means more money flowing to middle men no?

Quote from Bottles

If idols are expected to pay back all the money “invested” into them, then it’s not an investment, they are simply lending the idols money.

that is an interesting statement which ultimately leads to who bears the risk of investing/debuting a kpop group

how much risk should a company take (50%? 75%? more? less) and how much of a risk should the kpop idols bear...

hmmmm

Quote from selfmate

that is an interesting statement which ultimately leads to who bears the risk of investing/debuting a kpop group

how much risk should a company take (50%? 75%? more? less) and how much of a risk should the kpop idols bear...

hmmmm

My heart wants to say the companies should put in 100% of the investment money, and they should recuperate their costs through their share of the revenue the group makes after debut, and that as soon as the group starts generating revenue the members should get a share too. But it’s easy for me to say that as a fan.

Just seems crazy the system is “you only start earning once we have recuperated all our costs”, and who knows what sort of exuberant costs a company might add to inflate that number.

Quote from Bottles

Just seems crazy the system is “you only start earning once we have recuperated all our costs”, and who knows what sort of exuberant costs a company might add to inflate that number.

I believe this is Everglow's situation. The company spent above their means and added onto debt. There should be a cap in how much a group has to owe a company. I don't think a group should be on the hook for stuff like marketing and MVs. It would be more fair if there's a cap based on training and company size. Maybe they can make an overall cap based on the median expense for training. It just doesn't seem fair for idols in a small company to pay off these crazy debts. Most companies gamble on the first 2 comebacks making noise and if it doesn't, then they discard the group.

Quote from BEG4DAWIN

We know that will be hard.

Could it be as hard as Yuehua made it though?

Quote from StanGIDLE

I believe this is Everglow's situation. The company spent above their means and added onto debt. There should be a cap in how much a group has to owe a company. I don't think a group should be on the hook for stuff like marketing and MVs. It would be more fair if there's a cap based on training and company size. Maybe they can make an overall cap based on the median expense for training. It just doesn't seem fair for idols in a small company to pay off these crazy debts. Most companies gamble on the first 2 comebacks making noise and if it doesn't, then they discard the group.

True it is obscene that these companies have all these people choosing the risk but puttinf every dollar of debt on someone else now that i think about it logically like that…

Like imagine i was building a house that i got to live in while i built it, as long as 5 of my children lived in it too. I built it and got paid to build it and build it and build it and add costs and add costs. I get paid my salary until the day i die and that day when i die, my kids have to pay me back OR if they choose to move out, they have to pay me back.

Or almost as if the kids were adopted and their parents chose that they would take on the debt.

Quote from selfmate

I mean the more companies involved in the entire supply chain means more money flowing to middle men no?

Possibly, but it would make more sense, as at least you'd be hiring the best in the industry, instead of possibly doing a hire-and-fire if your promotion team doesn't achieve the results you want.

Think about it. Who would you hire? A company known for their promotion skills, who have an excellent track record of producing results, or... a bunch of people who may not be the best in their field and don't exactly have a stellar record of producing results...

Restructuring the industry to be akin to the keiretsu system (interlocking companies that deal with different matters. In our case, it would be production and/or management, and marketing/promotions) Japan has today would be interesting (I don't exactly approve of keiretsu, as it supports underperforming companies from failing)

Keiretsu - Wikipedia

Quote from BIGnorBANG

Possibly, but it would make more sense, as at least you'd be hiring the best in the industry, instead of possibly doing a hire-and-fire if your promotion team doesn't achieve the results you want.

Think about it. Who would you hire? A company known for their promotion skills, who have an excellent track record of producing results, or... a bunch of people who may not be the best in their field and don't exactly have a stellar record of producing results...

Restructuring the industry to be akin to the keiretsu system (interlocking companies that deal with different matters. In our case, it would be production and/or management, and marketing/promotions) Japan has today would be interesting (I don't exactly approve of keiretsu, as it supports underperforming companies from failing)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiretsu

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I find this topic interesting. There are so many good songs from smaller companies but they don't necessarily have the marketing or creativity to market their music.

Hate to bring them up because it's a messy situation but your point about fifty fifty might be this. The CEO of Attrakt seems to have the money but not the creativity which is why he most likely went to the givers to handle the music side of things. The producer seems to be at least competent because Ablume's debut song seems like it would've been a decent follow up to cupid if the drama didn't happen. I assume Attrakt went to a new creative for Fifty Fifty 2.0. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but at least he knows his limits and is funding creatives. I think whoever he decided to go with for Fifty Fifty 2.0 is pretty good at their job because songs and marketing have been good so far imo.

The point is, I think there's most likely an opportunity in the kpop industry to work as consultant to smaller companies. There's so many mistakes that are being made by smaller companies and it would be better use of their money to use firms or a third party to better market a song/group. Smaller companies of course can't compete with big 4 but with the right creatives and marketing you can at least disrupt.

Quote from StanGIDLE

Hate to bring them up because it's a messy situation but your point about fifty fifty might be this. The CEO of Attrakt seems to have the money but not the creativity which is why he most likely went to the givers to handle the music side of things. The producer seems to be at least competent because Ablume's debut song seems like it would've been a decent follow up to Cupid if the drama didn't happen. I assume Attrakt went to a new creative for Fifty Fifty 2.0. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but at least he knows his limits and is funding creatives. I think whoever he decided to go with for Fifty Fifty 2.0 is pretty good at their job because songs and marketing have been good so far imo.

It's similar to how MHJ operated with Ador. She didn't hire individual people to produce NewJeans, but hired BANA to produce (though I think had a hand in which people from BANA produced for Ador).

IIRC, one of the girls from Ablume mentioned that their debut song was from 2023, so it isn't that surprising that it be a follow up from Cupid (in addition that that rapping would've been done by Keena, too).

I think one other company could benefit from such an arrangement of management/producer and marketing company would be Cube. The company has three groups, with i-dle making over 90% of its revenue, whilst the other two barely make anything. If they hired a marketing company for those two, it could propel them further, and generate revenue for the company.

Quote from BIGnorBANG

It's similar to how MHJ operated with Ador. She didn't hire individual people to produce NewJeans, but hired BANA to produce (though I think had a hand in which people from BANA produced for Ador).

IIRC, one of the girls from Ablume mentioned that their debut song was from 2023, so it isn't that surprising that it be a follow up from Cupid (in addition that that rapping would've been done by Keena, too).

I think one other company could benefit from such an arrangement of management/producer and marketing company would be Cube. The company has three groups, with i-dle making over 90% of its revenue, whilst the other two barely make anything. If they hired a marketing company for those two, it could propel them further, and generate revenue for the company.

Cube is an interesting case if you exclude Idle they've made good music but poor marketing. I think they have the right producers working on tracks but they lack marketing knowledge in how to market their groups. They won the lottery with Soyeon because she's able to produce, market, and handle most of the things they're poor at.

Imo Cube should pay Soyeon whatever to produce and provide marketing ideas for their groups.I don't think CLC or Lightsum had bad music but they didn't know how to market them which is why 1 group disbanded and wouldn't be shocked if the other disbanded this year or next. I think Cube fails at one of the most important part in kpop which is marketing. You can have talent, visuals and good music, but it's not going to do much if you fail at marketing a group.

The Idle situation is fascinating because I haven't seen a group go on for 7+ year outlast 2 groups within their same company. It's why I had a feeling they weren't leaving because Cube needs them, more than they need them. Cube is most likely going to debut another girl group within the next 3 years and run into the same issues. I think they need to be smart about their next group and find a creative that knows how to market a group and create interest. I don't think they're low on funds, but they're low in creativity which is why their groups not named I-Dle failed.

Quote from StanGIDLE

Cube is an interesting case if you exclude Idle they've made good music but poor marketing. I think they have the right producers working on tracks but they lack marketing knowledge in how to market their groups. They won the lottery with Soyeon because she's able to produce, market, and handle most of the things they're poor at.

What I was surprised about is how she was the one in control over the Super Lady MV, and that she invested her own money into the MV by co-producing it with High Quality Fish, whilst it seems Cube didn't invest anything into it. To me, it seems that Cube has become risk-averse and isn't willing to spend its own money into its own MVs, or at least with I-dle, as it doesn't want to delete its money in case things go wrong.

Quote from StanGIDLE

IMO, Cube should pay Soyeon whatever to produce and provide marketing ideas for their groups.

That's one thing I don't get with Cube. She's the golden goose and should've handed everything on a platter to her. The company has two groups that NEED that the Soyeon touch. We've seen what her talents with Qwer were like, and brought attention to them by producing and starring in the same MV. Does that mean that Cube's existing group might need a revamp like I-dle has? Possibly. For a company to have two groups where they can't even get over 100,00 these days AND has existed for as long as Cube has... It doesn't exactly bode well for its future prospects...

Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

Idols need a union

As they say... "Say it louder!!"

Quote from BIGnorBANG

Does that mean that Cube's existing group might need a revamp like I-dle has? Possibly. For a company to have two groups where they can't even get over 100,00 these days AND has existed for as long as Cube has... It doesn't exactly bode well for its future prospects...

What's interesting Lightsum had a rebrand because they kicked out the 2 minors in the group. It would've been the perfect time to use Soyeon to help the group rebrand. The music they created were good imo but I don't think they had concepts to create intrigue which is why they ended up not performing well. The group is most likely in trouble because Cube is a risk-averse company and aren't going to take a risk to see if they can turn it around. I just know for next group they should get Soyeon in some capacity assist them. It's clear she knows what she was doing when she assisted out Qwer and possibly her p-nation group is a hit.

Quote from Bottles

If idols are expected to pay back all the money “invested” into them, then it’s not an investment, they are simply lending the idols money.

Quote from StanGIDLE

The whole system is predatory. This case is heartbreaking because it's not the girls fault their company decided to spend above their means. Idols shouldn't be on the hook for that. There needs to be a better system because majority of groups don't end up generating enough revenue to pay off debts/loan early.

Unfortunately, that's how the music industry works in most markets.

It is one of the main reasons so many artists in the past in Western industries ended up broke despite being signed to major labels and having hits. It's a little bit different in KPOP since the companies also train, house, feed, transport, etc. their artists on top of music production, MV production, stage production, tour production, hair styling, clothes styling, beauty treatments, maybe plastic surgery, etc.

But, it's essentially the same. They give the artist a lump sum of money upfront, and try to recoup on the back end. If they don't recoup, the artist has to make up the difference and usually ends up in debt.

I think Everglow is getting off lucky if they leave without owing Yuehua anything. That means that Yuehua ate the cost of that lost investment, and Everglow can use their fandom power to hopefully find other avenues of income.

I would love for Yiren and Sihyeon to go into acting along with if they pursue independent releases.

So many great posts in this thread. The music industry is predatory as StanGIDLE said, and that's in every country. Kids around the world grow up wide eyed, naive, hungering for that big break and to become a global icon like the artists they worship, whether it's Madonna, Britney, Michael, Taylor, Bigbang, Twice, Blackpink, or BTS.

They and their family willing to do anything, sign anything, for those lottery pick odds to become that next superstar.

Kpop slave contracts or 365 deals in the US, however you set it up, they all designed to make labels the most money with as little risk as possible. And i havent even touched on the even darker, more disgusting shit that happens behind closed doors. When you combine rich, influential older power players, usually men, with young desperate artists struggling for that big break....

The fairest way is to prohibit all forms of contracts that require the artist to pay back any money invested in them. If the labels believe in a trainee, let them put up or shut up using their own funds. If the artist hits big, the label will get a huge chunk of the revenue for the risk they took. If the artist flops, then the label has to eat the costs. This will prob result in a LOT LESS idols debuting but this isnt necessarily a bad thing. We know the kinds of abuse that can be inflicted even on idols from bigger "safer" more established companies, imagine what the poor kids are going through in the dozenz of B and C and D tier groups.

I'm ok with just having about 20 girl groups active at any one time. TBH i think only 10-20 are profitable enough to warrant continued activities. If even semi-known girl groups like Weeekly and Everglow cant make it, what are the chances for the dozens of others that have only a fraction of their popularity?

LSRFM

Illit

Katseye

Twice

Ive

Heart

Kiikii

Aespa

Meow

Izna

Baemon

Itzy

NMIXX

StayC

Kepler

Idle

KIOF

TripleS

This is pretty much the top 18 active groups right now and the only ones that could be profitable. Is there any need for any more than these 18?

I also didnt count BP, OMG, MMM or RV, i think these are just groups in name only now, they wont be having more than 5 fully promoted comebacks combined in the next five years tbh. New Jeans also in hiatus for the foreseeable future.

Quote from BlackpinkHouse

LSRFM

Illit

Katseye

Twice

Ive

Heart

Kiikii

Aespa

Meow

Izna

Baemon

Itzy

NMIXX

StayC

Kepler

Idle

KIOF

TripleS

This is pretty much the top 18 active groups right now and the only ones that could be profitable. Is there any need for any more than these 18?

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I'd probably discount Katseye as their subsidiary isn't making much from them, and I just don't see them making money for them. Aside from them, I think you've nailed all the groups 👏

Quote from BEG4DAWIN

Probably fan rumors, but hopefully there is some truth.

According to a post on Weibo, there are already some companies as options for #EVERGLOW to return as a group.

"One Hundred, AT AREA and P.NATION had contact with some members of Everglow earlier this month. Now One Hundred and P.NATION want to sign all members +

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One Hundred seems to have money to burn, so they're probably highly likely to buy the trademark etc. from Yuehua. P.Nation I can't really see, as they wouldn't want another GG under their belt whilst trying to debut their own first.

Have P.Nation successfully promoted any artist? I feel like if Everglow wants better promotion they need to shop around a bit more. Most artists seem to drop P.Nation as soon as they can.