Blaming a trainee for not refusing to cover a song with the N-word is like blaming an employee for doing their job.

    Answer on OP’s thread


    Thread
    Stop antagonizing idols that say the word
    ***While this is coming from a black person, I do not speak for all black people.

    I wanted to add my little two cents with the recent videos of blackpink members saying the n-word. I personally don’t get mad at people from non-western countries saying the n-word because at the end of the day they don’t know the history behind the word. Basically anyone who lives in the anglosphere (North America, Europe, Australia) should know what the n word is and its history but I don’t expect someone from…
    yabxtc


    Blaming and critisizing Jennie for appearing on " The idol " or Lisa performing in crazy horse ( which idc personnaly) have more sense than blaming their Training Evalutions saying the N-word.


    Like please, since when an trainee have the choice.

    How many times have we heard idols talk about how cruel and brutal the trainee system is?


    I literally saw a girl crying because her trainer was forcing her to do a split on the floor.


    Trainee Momo was eating ice cubes to lose weight—do you really think she did that just because she wanted to? No. JYP straight-up threatened her, saying that if she didn’t lose weight, she wouldn’t debut.


    And now you’re telling me that 16-17-year-old trainees could just walk up to Yang Suk-shit and say to face to face, “No, I won’t do it”?


    That idiot wouldn’t even feel the slightest bit of shame telling them to pack their bags and go home so he could find other trainees willing to rap his damn N-word songs.


    You know what, I’ll go even far and say that any idol who doesn’t have a control over their career shouldn’t be blamed for singing an N-word song.


    Yes, I’m talking about those nugu groups and rookie idols who did it.

    If you want to swear, swear on their companies.


    Damn, I don't even know why I should explain something so logical.

    :pepe-shame:



  • AllKill VIP

    Aren't the idols the one who choose which songs they'll sing during monthly evaluation


    I remember many idols talking about how they had to show a dance choregraphy that they learn during monthly evaluation


    But the choice of songs was free for trainee, and it was the way for them to pick a song that can highlight their strenght


    And also had the choice on the special skill/talent that they wanted to show


    Songs were imposed by the training team when it was usually a group evaluation

    Quote from Fansamy

    I don't really understand why anyone who cannot say the N-word still consume music in any way with the N-word.


    There's plenty of great music that's not from the USA.

    I am white so my opinion may not hold much weight, but there are many amazing and beautiful songs with the N-word in them. I think these songs can also hold a lot of meaning and stories that non-Black people should take the time to hear and engage with! Also supporting Black artists is important!

    Even in that case, unless the training team genuinely didn't know what the song choice was until performance, they should have some responsibility to tell a trainee "You aren't doing this song and this is the reason why".


    I would expect a label and training team, even 10 years back, one that is also in some degree acting as in loco parentis, to actually know better than dumb 16 year olds and course correct them.


    If they DIDN'T know until performance, I'd be more shocked, given how controlling and micromanaging the whole trainee process seems to be.

    "They were just following orders." :rolleyes:


    Quote from Fansamy

    I don't really understand why anyone who cannot say the N-word still consume music in any way with the N-word.

    Because it's a common "feature" of entire genres of music? Why should we limit what we listen to because people insist on including slurs in their lyrics?

    Quote from kahei

    I am white so my opinion may not hold much weight, but there are many amazing and beautiful songs with the N-word in them. I think these songs can also hold a lot of meaning and stories that non-Black people should take the time to hear and engage with! Also supporting Black artists is important!

    There's plenty of songs by black artists without the word.

    For instance, plenty of songs by black artists from Africa, that people tend to completely ignore and they have fewer chances than people from the USA to make it big on a global scale, as they don't have the powerful American music industry behind them.

    Let's all support them more.

    I understand.


    At some point American music started to be pushed much more heavily on our radios etc. It felt unnatural (perhaps promoters paid to have it pushed?), so I started to look for music from other countries more online.

    There's literally millions of songs that we can sing along to without having to take those mental notes, so I prefer listening to that.


    A lot of those artists have far less promotion and power behind them than American artists, so it's nice giving them some love and support anyway.

    Quote from ThePhantomThief

    Even in that case, unless the training team genuinely didn't know what the song choice was until performance, they should have some responsibility to tell a trainee "You aren't doing this song and this is the reason why".


    I would expect a label and training team, even 10 years back, one that is also in some degree acting as in loco parentis, to actually know better than dumb 16 year olds and course correct them.


    If they DIDN'T know until performance, I'd be more shocked, given how controlling and micromanaging the whole trainee process seems to be.

    Dude, I hate to break it to you, but after 20+ years of working across East Asia, you do know how racist East Asians are right? Like literally there is SO much racism there, to everyone.


    N word racism is so far down the list of what they actually consider racism or even caring about it. They'll make a performative noise about addressing it because of the economics of it, but no one actually cares at all.


    Korean hierarchy


    Koreans > Japanese & Chinese > White People > the rest of South East Asia and > Black and Brown People


    Chinese hierarchy

    Chinese > Japanese & Koreans > White People > the rest of South East Asia and > Black and Brown People


    Japanese hierarchy


    Japanese > Chinese & Koreans > White People > the rest of South East Asia and > Black and Brown People


    Look at who is right at the bottom each time.

    The simple unpleasant truth is you will have a much better time in China, Japan or Korea if you're white as opposed to being black. The racism is real, it exists and management doesn't give a single damn insofar as much as they know all it takes to get you to spend again is an insincere apology and a promise to respect the situation more.

    Quote from Hiakuryu

    Dude, I hate to break it to you, but after 20+ years of working across East Asia, you do know how racist East Asians are right? Like literally there is SO much racism there, to everyone.


    N word racism is so far down the list of what they actually consider racism or even caring about it. They'll make a performative noise about addressing it because of the economics of it, but no one actually cares at all.

    I lived in Japan 6 years, not quite your 20, but enough.


    The crux of what I was saying is not that the companies would/should prevent trainees from using music with certain terms out of genuine care and understanding about the harm that word has. I mean they would/should prevent them because of the damage to their image. We all know how self serving the companies are, they wouldn't course correct from the goodness of their heart, but for the threat to their investments.

    Quote from ThePhantomThief

    We all know how self serving the companies are, they wouldn't course correct from the goodness of their heart, but for the threat to their investments.

    From what I've seen the entire industry is pretty insulated from any boycotts, BDS hasn't worked. The fans are still going to buy albums by the truckload etc...


    Black music producers are still going to be going over there or collaborating for work and to make a paycheck... and nothing will change.

    I'm sorry, are people actually...complaining about songs that have the N word in them now? Like, really? There are so many other first world problems you could complain about, but this is the hill you want to cry and die on? Give me a break.


    That's such a bizarre reason to dislike an entire genre of music. Is it that hard to not say a slur at least in public? And if you're not black, it's really not your place to judge or dictate how a black person, artist or listener, decides to use the word, whether it's to reject it or reclaim it.


    Every time this topic comes up, K-Pop communities fail the mission of discussing it without making blanket statements and toxic justifications.

    You know there's a HUGE difference between African people and Black American people. American slavery has caused generations of poverty and trauma with Black Americans receiving minimal or unequal education and work opportunities. There's plenty of people alive who remember segregation and having their rights stripped away, being treated as subhuman. Even today Black Americans experience police brutality and worse health outcomes. Africans living in homogenous African countries have very different history and experiences.


    Some of y'all in this thread are suggesting we shouldn't listen to Black creators who use the n-word because you're uncomfortable with the word and that's the complete opposite of the point. Black Americans have every right to use the n-word because it is part of their history. It's reclaiming power from the oppressor. We're not going to sanitize or revise history. We have to look directly at it and acknowledge it happened.

    Quote from notbored

    :pepe-cringe::pepefacepalm:

    ppl putting the blame on the songs with n words

    Quote from Yama-Chan

    I'm sorry, are people actually...complaining about songs that have the N word in them now? Like, really? There are so many other first world problems you could complain about, but this is the hill you want to cry and die on? Give me a break.


    That's such a bizarre reason to dislike an entire genre of music. Is it that hard to not say a slur at least in public? And if you're not black, it's really not your place to judge or dictate how a black person, artist or listener, decides to use the word, whether it's to reject it or reclaim it.


    Every time this topic comes up, K-Pop communities fail the mission of discussing it without making blanket statements and toxic justifications.

    Ikr? I'm really shocked.

    There is so much history and culture as to why the word is used and is included in popular culture... Expecting it to be erased so non-Black people can sing along to a song properly is crazy to me!
    As a white person who has grown up in a somewhat diverse community, it truly is not that hard to just not say the word while singing along. Or, I just don't sing along if I'm worried I will make a mistake. I can hum along or just LISTEN.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from kahei

    Why is it always up to African Americans to make non-African Americans comfortable?

    Always very weird energy when people are so adamantly and vehemently fighting for their right to say a slur without having to worry about optics.


    I swear...

    Quote from DaisyTheGenuine

    This is a definitely a thread...

    I lowkey appreciate these threads. K-Pop takes don't really tell you a lot about a person, but these conversations do.


    Now, there is always room for a person to be open to discussion and adjusting their stance after listening to someone else's perspective, but some people go full David.


    You never go full David.

    Quote from jklsjlkh

    You know there's a HUGE difference between African people and Black American people. American slavery has caused generations of poverty and trauma with Black Americans receiving minimal or unequal education and work opportunities. There's plenty of people alive who remember segregation and having their rights stripped away, being treated as subhuman. Even today Black Americans experience police brutality and worse health outcomes. Africans living in homogenous African countries have very different history and experiences.


    Some of y'all in this thread are suggesting we shouldn't listen to Black creators who use the n-word because you're uncomfortable with the word and that's the complete opposite of the point. Black Americans have every right to use the n-word because it is part of their history. It's reclaiming power from the oppressor. We're not going to sanitize or revise history. We have to look directly at it and acknowledge it happened.


    Black Americans have every right to use the n-word and we have every right to not listen to songs if we chose not to. Interesting how saying you don't consume something is immediately twisted into acting as if you tell people to change it. I don't want anyone to change it, but people can choose not to listen to such songs.


    Americans so often want to center themselves that they think we absolutely HAVE to listen to them and pay money for their products and it's some kind of insult if we don't.


    There are lots of songs from very talented artists from other countries that are completely ignored and who need the support far more than artists that are supported by the American music industry.


    Once you've supported artists from every other country consistently for years, you may start having having a point about non-Americans having to also support American artists.

    As long as you haven't, stop trying to act as if people not consuming music from the USA in general or from a certain genre in the USA is some kind of bad thing. Start supporting music from some other countries (that is not the UK) first. Countries which often with long histories of many bad things and oppression happening in their history, as well. Histories you probably know nothing about.


    Not listening is also not the same as sanitizing or revising history. I never said anyone needed to change their songs. You can sing them as loud as often as you want and explain the meaning about them as well. People can also choose to not consume them.

    People can also choose to instead read books or watch documentaries about history without having to listen to songs just because Americans think the rest of the world should. I have read and watched several about the civil rights movement and slavery. Non-Americans tend to know more about the history of the USA than the other way around, anyway, so maybe Americans should start some studying about other countries before they demand everyone consumes their products and act as if we are obligated to listen to exactly what they want us dictate us to listen to.

    Edited 2 times, last by Fansamy ().

    Love 1
    Quote from Fansamy

    Americans so often want to center themselves that they think we absolutely HAVE to listen to them and pay money for their products and it's some kind of insult if we don't.

    Lmao.

    Quote from Fansamy

    There are lots of songs from very talented artists from other countries that are completely ignored and who need the support far more than artists that are supported by the American music industry.

    And who determines who deserves the support? You?

    Why are you centering non-Americans and think we absolutely HAVE to listen to them and pay money for their products. Is it some kind of insult if we don't?


    Also, you are grossly misconstruing jklsjlkh's point.

    Quote from kahei

    Lmao.

    And who determines who deserves the support? You?

    Why are you centering non-Americans and think we absolutely HAVE to listen to them and pay money for their products. Is it some kind of insult if we don't?


    Also, you are grossly misconstruing jklsjlkh's point.

    My point was grossly misconstruited.

    I never said anything about people not being allowed to make the music they want. They can make whatever music they want and others are allowed to choose not to listen to it.


    I'm not going to be told I HAVE to listen to certain music by people from a country that is not my own by people who don't bother to support artists from every other country in the world that are not their own.


    I and nobody else is obliged to listen to American music, specific American artists or specific American songs. If you think I should, only then I think you should also listen to music from all other countries before you can tell me that. If, however, you don't want to insist people have to listen to your country's music or specific songs, then I don't care if you listen only to American music or only a certain artist. Do whatever you like.

    Quote from kahei

    I'm not going to continue writing to you when we're not even close to being on the same page... much less seeing eye-to-eye.

    You again didn't say anything with this really.


    It's very simple: people can make whatever music they want. Others are not obliged to listen to it.

    If you want to insist people are obliged to listen to certain music, then also make an effort to listen to music from artists outside of your own country with something to tell.

    If you don't want to insist people are obliged to listen to certain music, that's perfectly fine (and normal). Then do whatever you want and listen to as many or as few artists as you want.

    It's ignorant take central this week apparently.


    How does one twist "Judging black people for using the n word in their own music, because they've decided to reclaim the power of the word and repurposed it, is problematic" into "You MUST listen to and accept ALL American music"?


    A conversation on race disfigured into a rant about Americans having a heliocentric mindset towards their music?


    Oh boy.

    If you want to insist everyone HAS to listen to certain or all American songs, best be prepared to listen to songs from artists from all other countries as well.


    If you don't insist on this (which is very normal), then do as you like and listen to as many or as few songs from whatever country or only your country as you like.


    I've never sung or spoken the n word.

    Worry about the ones who have.

    It's a bit column a, a bit of column b and bit of column c.


    Labels will give set songs to trainees to perform. It's been a standard practice since gen 1. Sometimes that involves songs that might inappropriate content for the idol (eg obvious references to sex and having a 11 yo sing and dance to it) but that's part of their training. We've seen survival shows with kids being criticised about their looks or weight so clearly labels have lots of power.


    However Idols also do have some control for their perfs at least on other labels. They can choose what to perform including adding changes or making a remix. That can be from adding their own singing flair, adding dance or censoring like they do with swears. Sometimes for an evaluation you can do something different, as a trainee Yuri famously did dinosaur impressions a couple times for her weekly performance evaluations lol.


    Or to avoid any and all issues that just don't use songs that feature controversial things. Pure and simple. Put them on a ban list that way there's zero chance anything happens.

    Quote from kahei

    Why is it always up to African Americans to make non-African Americans comfortable?

    The agencies and management don't care at all, the the trainees especially being primarily from East Asia don't really have the cultural or social context with regards to that word at all.


    As far as I can tell, there is only group of people getting upset about those trainees using that word...

    Quote from Hiakuryu

    The agencies don't care at all, the management and the trainees being from East Asia don't really have the cultural or social context with regards to that word at all.


    As far as I can tell, there is only group of people getting upset about those trainees using that word...

    Well I wasn't talking about the agencies... I meant people in this thread questioning the word's presence in songs.


    And cultural/social context is only so much of an excuse when they consistently take inspiration from these cultures & societies lol. And with their expansion into Western markets, they've been made aware of these expectations. Even 10 years ago. They have the internet. They have access to information. Instead they choose to remain ignorant and take things as they please without properly engaging with their sources of inspiration.

    You're right but people wont admit that

    Quote from babymon-gals

    It’s not like YG held them captive and said “YOU HAVE TO SAY THE WORD” like in one cover Jennie didn’t say F*** but proudly said the N word…so the trainees definitely pick and choose what to say. :boredr:

    She most likely knew that was a swear word and didnt know what the N word was? Who knows. I dont think she said it knowing but people can believe what they want.


    Either way they and YG both get blame for this.

    Quote from kahei

    Well I wasn't talking about the agencies... I meant people in this thread questioning the word's presence in songs.


    And cultural/social context is only so much of an excuse when they consistently take inspiration from these cultures & societies lol. And with their expansion into Western markets, they've been made aware of these expectations. Even 10 years ago. They have the internet. They have access to information. Instead they choose to remain ignorant and take things as they please without properly engaging with their sources of inspiration.

    Well yeah, because as I said before no one in management cares and on top of that the odds are high that they're going to be racist as hell too.


    Also you're massively overstimating how important knowing this stuff is to people. Really massively overestimating it.


    The trainees have got their own shit to deal with, trainee classes, school, etc etc...


    Management as I said before are either racist or just don't give a shit at all and before you say "of course they'd know" why? Do ya think the SNU undergrads are reading sociological papersabout AAVE and the use of the word in modern America pop culture when they're doing their biz/marketing/degrees?


    You're making some wild assumptions about how much foreigners (to you that is) actually care about black culture one that imo is wildly overstating the ease of access (some poor slob korean working for Hybe until they're getting overworked to death really doesn't give a shit), underestimating the language barrier (they're not going to spend their time translating all the english articles into korean) and overstimating how important they think knowing this is for asians or for the company (looking at the financials I don't see boycotts doing anything, I mean BDS hasn't done shit to any of the agencies attitudes about Coca Cola, Starbucks and etc).

    I mean... I don't know where I said they DO care about black culture but I'm saying they SHOULD. I don't understand what your point is. Everyone is so busy so they're racist... Huh? Like, okay if that's the reality but that doesn't make it okay. I'm not going to be okay with foreigners being ignorant because they're overworked. If they're too busy to care and don't want to care about African American culture then they should stop trying to use it for their music and concepts. That's my point.

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