Is it safe to say the only groups and companys with fraudulent sales are experiencing the decline in sales

Increases (Circle)

IVE - 300K

Enhypen - 275k

Ateez - 265k

Decrease (Circle)

SKZ - 1.05M

Aespa - 865k

Seventeen - 765k

ITZY - 692k

TXT - 690k

RV - 387K

ZB1 - 217k

Gidle I Feel accumulated 1.4M on Circle and 1.8M pre-orders verified for 2, an increase by 400k, the biggest increase among these groups.

Le Sserafim Unforgiven accumulated 1.57M on Circle, let's see their pre-orders.

It's very difficult for the Big 3 and Hybe to get away with fraudulent sales as they are the companies that are heavily scrutinized.

You can ignore HANTEO Sales as they don't have the strict controls that the Circle Charts have which is why A Midsummer's NMIXX Dream that sold over a million on HANTEO in it's first week, isn't a Million Certified Album on Circle or RIAK.

If anything, HANTEO might be tightening up their system which is why their Album Sales are dropping across the board while Circle's Album Sales are consistent to past Sales

Quote from jimeous

It's very difficult for the Big 3 and Hybe to get away with fraudulent sales as they are the companies that are heavily scrutinized.

You can ignore HANTEO Sales as they don't have the strict controls that the Circle Charts have which is why A Midsummer's NMIXX Dream that sold over a million on HANTEO in it's first week, isn't a Million Certified Album on Circle or RIAK.

If anything, HANTEO might be tightening up their system which is why their Album Sales are dropping across the board while Circle's Album Sales are consistent to past Sales

Bigger companies can get away with more fraud or skirting the law due to power and influence. Chaebols are notorious for it. Just like in life, the rich criminals who steal millions have it easier compared to petty criminals who sell dope.

no

If youre selling millions and struggling to sell out tours in arenas and even theaters your sales are fake, simple as that.

Shit touring=no fans found and that will always be by far the biggest giveaway.

Edit: people throwing up facepalms but no counter arguments. I would love to understand why so many groups can sell millions upon millions of albums but struggle to tour in arena's that Kpop acts have been selling out for years all the while selling just a fraction? The excuse used to be 'well China' but thats not the case anymore right? Where are these fans and why aren't these groups touring where the sales are highest considering the companies have that data?

I guess not every company wants to pull in 200m bucks in touring revenue...for some reason.

Edit 2: not a single person able to dispute this.

Quote from thebadguy

its opposite, big companies have much more resources and influence making it easier for them to do frauds and get away with it.

Quote from Owned_by_Irene

Bigger companies can get away with more fraud or skirting the law due to power and influence. Chaebols are notorious for it. Just like in life, the rich criminals who steal millions have it easier compared to petty criminals who sell dope.

I'm not sure where you get your information from but the Big 3 and HYBE have been under investigation for a number of things, the most recent is Photocards which directly affect album sales so they can't hide.

Quote from jimeous

I'm not sure where you get your information from but the Big 3 and HYBE have been under investigation for a number of things, the most recent is Photocards which directly affect album sales so they can't hide.

Barely nothing comes off it. SM had tons of tax evasions and it took over a decade for them to get fined. LSM was wanted by Interpol and did a lot of embezzlement, now he's living his best life scott free. There was never a time on earth where the ultra rich had it worse than the non-rich.

Ive though. from 1.6M to 150k. What kind of sorcery is that?

Quote from Owned_by_Irene

Barely nothing comes off it. SM had tons of tax evasions and it took over a decade for them to get fined. LSM was wanted by Interpol and did a lot of embezzlement, now he's living his best life scott free. There was never a time on earth where the ultra rich had it worse than the non-rich.

Your points are irrelevant as they deal with the past and not the current situation

Quote from Coldhit

Increases (Circle)

IVE - 300K

Enhypen - 275k

Ateez - 265k

Decrease (Circle)

SKZ - 1.05M

Aespa - 865k

Seventeen - 765k

ITZY - 692k

TXT - 690k

RV - 387K

ZB1 - 217k

Gidle I Feel accumulated 1.4M on Circle and 1.8M pre-orders verified for 2, an increase by 400k, the biggest increase among these groups.

Le Sserafim Unforgiven accumulated 1.57M on Circle, let's see their pre-orders.

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I’m not sure Circle numbers should be used. Treasure sold like 1.8M on Circle but like 750k on Hanteo…Clearly Circle sales are easier to fake.

Quote from LCJK

I’m not sure Circle numbers should be used. Treasure sold like 1.8M on Circle but like 750k on Hanteo.

Yeah, since Treasure has more sales at Circle than Hanteo—more specifically, over 1 million—their sales doesn't seem to make sense for some reason.

No, if anything the groups with fraudulent sales are the groups which won't have sales decline. Cause they have the cheat code to get the high sales.

Quote from jimeous

Your points are irrelevant as they deal with the past and not the current situation

Nothing has changed. People are still corrupt, people get bought off with money, and the Korean government wants kpop to succeed because they get money from it. Yang Hyunsuk is still fronting YG despite being a convicted criminal. Whatever scenario you have in your mind about a super ethical scrutiny big companies are facing isn't based on what happens in the real world.

Quote from thebadguy

>Big 3 goes under album sales related investigation

> Suddenly the sales numbers for their groups start falling

You pick and chose numbers to make a point while ignoring the actual situation...

Itzy went from 20 versions with all members to 6 versions with 4 members in their recent comeback, they are going to drop sales.

NMIXX aren't an established group so naturally their album sales are not going to be consistent AND it's not like they have Songs that are top charting so it will be even more difficult for them to get stable sales.

While I point out the reality that the Big 3 and HYBE are always under investigation

Quote from Owned_by_Irene

Nothing has changed. People are still corrupt, people get bought off with money, and the Korean government wants kpop to succeed because they get money from it. Yang Hyunsuk is still fronting YG despite being a convicted criminal. Whatever scenario you have in your mind about a super ethical scrutiny big companies are facing isn't based on what happens in the real world.

That has nothing to do with the systems in place as Yang Hyunsuk has never been accused of saejagi

Quote from jimeous

That has nothing to do with the systems in place as Yang Hyunsuk has never been accused of saejagi

The entire industry has known sajaegi happened for decades. Except hot air, nobody got convicted. In other words, business as usual.

I'd say yeah because these frauding big 4 companies are the only ones affected by the decline in sales.

Aespa's drop makes sense. Their China bars boycotted the most recent album due to SM's clownery and they purchased around 800k last time.

Quote from Owned_by_Irene

The entire industry has known sajaegi happened for decades. Except hot air, nobody got convicted. In other words, business as usual.

But the entire industry isn't scrutinised or monitored as much as the Big 3 and HYBE

Quote from jimeous

But the entire industry isn't scrutinised or monitored as much as the Big 3 and HYBE

Unfortunately little or nothing comes off it. Those companies buy awards in font of everyone's faces and go on like nothing happened. Sajaegi is done by all the major players for sure. They even found over 300 movies that got rigged and they will do nothing about it. The entire industry is aware about sajaegi.

so teshub is back? Yikes

Quote from tetetete

The drop is huge for itzy

Itzy had like 6 versions

Quote from thebadguy

Who's teshub acc?

The Irene simp is always the correct answer

Quote from Owned_by_Irene

The entire industry has known sajaegi happened for decades. Except hot air, nobody got convicted. In other words, business as usual.

but this! and also based on my own observation, YG groups dont have big drops in album sales like the groups mentioned above and never heard sajaegi allegations toward them ever since.

everyone is iso certified. dont matter

Albums sales is just a number that the marketing team want to achieve for media play. It does not necessarily correlate to the popularity of a group, as one person or entity can purchase 1+ million albums.

If sales dropped significantly and the group hasn't been in a scandal, it means that group's marketing budget has been reduced significantly.

Quote from TheBotter

If youre selling millions and struggling to sell out tours in arenas and even theaters your sales are fake, simple as that.

Shit touring=no fans found and that will always be by far the biggest giveaway.

Edit: people throwing up facepalms but no counter arguments. I would love to understand why so many groups can sell millions upon millions of albums but struggle to tour in arena's that Kpop acts have been selling out for years all the while selling just a fraction? The excuse used to be 'well China' but thats not the case anymore right? Where are these fans and why aren't these groups touring where the sales are highest considering the companies have that data?

I guess not every company wants to pull in 200m bucks in touring revenue...for some reason.

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Oh I agree with you this one having millions of sales yet struggling to pull a 10k venue that's sus cuz where your fans at?

Quote from nana18

Oh I agree with you this one having millions of sales yet struggling to pull a 10k venue that's sus cuz where your fans at?

they at other countries

Quote from Rarami

they at other countries

That the company doesn't tour because?

Quote from TheBotter

That the company doesn't tour because?

?

Quote from TheBotter

If youre selling millions and struggling to sell out tours in arenas and even theaters your sales are fake, simple as that.

Shit touring=no fans found and that will always be by far the biggest giveaway.

I believe that for most popular groups, a big portion of fans (or even casual fans) who purchases albums aren't inclined to spend on concert tickets (and maybe on flight tickets, hotels/airbnb, overall expenses on another city/country and leaving their job/studies for a couple of days). Especially that, due to global distribution and the increase of cheaper versions released, It's not a sacrifice to buy one or more versions next to your house.

Before, due to how difficult It was to purchase albums internationally the options were importing, so people in most markets used to be more seletive about the amount of albums and from which group they'd purchase. Similarly at the way they might be seletive about which groups' they will buy concert tickets, even though they listen to their songs and have bought some albums for the equivalent of $25-15 on their currency.

There might be other several factors why companies don't book acts in countries they have potential to sell out too. Logistics, for example. Sometimes the available dates for specific venues aren't booked when the acts are available/aren't touring in other countries/aren't promoting a first/second comeback of the year. Sometimes they simply don't believe in their own acts and are cautious about booking. Sometimes the country an act is popular doesn't have a touring culture. Something that happens a lot here in Brazil: Sometimes the acts are expensive and the local producers, for lack of research/acknowledge about the demography of some niche acts don't think they are worth the price/won't generate enough revenue and refuse the offer even If not always It's correct. Etc.

Tl;dr: So I don't think It's as black and white as not matching touring numbers = fake sales. The sales are still inflated, of course, but It doesn't mean It isn't real people buying, some groups are probably just the 5-6th favorite group of a multi fan who isn't inclined to buy all groups' they like' concert tickets and yes, companies aren't always booking concerts where their acts are popular.

Quote from Minazuki

I believe that for most popular groups, a big portion of fans (or even casual fans) who purchases albums aren't inclined to spend on concert tickets (and maybe on flight tickets, hotels/airbnb, overall expenses on another city/country and leaving their job/studies for a couple of days). Especially that, due to global distribution and the increase of cheaper versions released, It's not a sacrifice to buy one or more versions next to your house.

Before, due to how difficult It was to purchase albums internationally the options were importing, so people in most markets used to be more seletive about the amount of albums and from which group they'd purchase. Similarly at the way they might be seletive about which groups' they will buy concert tickets, even though they listen to their songs and have bought some albums for the equivalent of $25-15 on their currency.

There might be other several factors why companies don't book acts in countries they have potential to sell out too. Logistics, for example. Sometimes the available dates for specific venues aren't booked when the acts are available/aren't touring in other countries/aren't promoting a first/second comeback of the year. Sometimes they simply don't believe in their own acts and are cautious about booking. Sometimes the country an act is popular doesn't have a touring culture. Something that happens a lot here in Brazil: Sometimes the acts are expensive and the local producers, for lack of research/acknowledge about the demography of some niche acts don't think they are worth the price/won't generate enough revenue and refuse the offer even If not always It's correct. Etc.

Tl;dr: So I don't think It's as black and white as not matching touring numbers = fake sales. The sales are still inflated, of course, but It doesn't mean It isn't real people buying, some groups are probably just the 5-6th favorite group of a multi fan who isn't inclined to buy all groups' they like' concert tickets and yes, companies aren't always booking concerts where their acts are popular.

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An excuse I've heard before yet it only specifically affects some groups while this buying phenomenon doesn't harm other. I mean they are the same market demo and yet display remarkably different buyer patterns? That doesn't really stack up. I mean 5 years ago groups who were selling 300-400 thousand copies were also booking 500k tours...now we have groups selling 4 to 5 times that number of albums and yet only able to rally around quarter of those ticket sales? Where are the fans?

Everything you mentioned was true back during that time. Concert prices, travel costs, etc all of it remained the same yet groups with much smaller fandoms and while Kpop was less popular and global as a whole annihilate the touring numbers of groups who can't muster 10k audience on a single night but can sell 2 million albums...we're being asked to pretend that stacks up? Like Nmixx when they dropped 700k in a single day but cant sell out a conference room or bingo hall? Multis will buy albums on the millions but won't attend a concert when tickets can be seen on sale for as little as 40 bucks for certain sections...but also this doesn't seem the case for other groups who can happily sell 1+m albums and tour to over a million people in stadiums around the world?

Another point you make is global distribution, excellent point. But what's odd is a lot of these groups are selling millions yet failing to reflect with high sales on charts in major music consumption territories in spite of said distribution. How's that make sense?

I mean I really don't understand why certain groups face all that you mentioned above and sell out the biggest stadiums in the world and you can find thousands of their fans around the world, yet others selling tickets is an impossible task cos of a million and 1 reasons that seemingly aren't reflected by top groups...kind of odd that so many groups are smashing in so many areas yet can't seem to even do mediocre in the one area success can't be pumped, inflated or cheated in some kind of manor. Very odd that.