Real Talk: When did touring become the only important measure of popularity in K-Pop?

    I've noticed this has become an increasingly popular statement to make, as if it's common sense and knowledge that touring is not only the most important metric but the ONLY important metric.


    And some people act like this has also always been the prevailing sentiment and opinion.


    What???


    I've been in the trenches for over a decade going back and forth with fans over the K-Pop hierarchy, and it's almost always been a conversation about downloads, streams, album sales and then everything else.


    Does touring matter to indicate how many people will pay money to see a group? Sure!


    But, let's just use NewJeans as an example here.


    If they completely flopped on the charts and weren't the most in demand group by the public and big brands, would they have been invited to be the first girl group to perform at Lollapalooza? Would they even be getting all those love calls from those brands? Would over 100,000 people go to their pop-up store if they weren't relevant on the charts or with the public at all?


    Honestly there seems to be an...agenda with this recent shift to only touring matters nows ;judgingpepe:


    If you know you know.


    But hey, I'm not completely upset.


    Mamamoo is still a top 5 girl group in K-Pop if only touring matters now.


    I win either way :pepe-use-head::pepe-big-brain:

    in BP case is because haters are so invested on debunking every merit

    youtube numbers, bought

    instagram followers bought

    Millions sales, fandom on a credit card spree, specially China

    Top Brand ambassadors worlwide...they are just models.


    but touring is real, they can`t say a thing about touring. Because every single country is a soldout

    So twerking on touring sales baby

    did blackpink release a new album today?'s tweet - "#LALISA ACAB, aquí solo respetamos a la POLISA " - TrendsmapID BI****S

    OT4 BLINKS OR JAIL

    Like 3

    Since Army saw BTS filling out stadiums in the USA?

    It's the ultimate way to argue that having a huge fandom that pays to see you live is what matters. It's an extremely biased argument but so are the arguments that try to downplay the importance of touring success.


    The reality is if people aren't coming to your shows, you aren't fully connecting. And if people are coming to your shows but your music consumption numbers are weak -- there's something off there, too.

    Quote from buffyfan

    Lmao I saw the title and knew it had to be a Newjeans fan and then saw the example group used lmaoo

    I'm a Mamamoo fan first. Get it right. I used them as an example too.


    They just had the biggest debut tour in the US by any K-Pop girl group.


    They did much bigger venues than (G)I-DLE too.


    By the logic that has been presented to me in so many topics, Mamamoo is a much more popular group :pepe-joy:


    Throw IVE in there too. Their venues are smaller too.

    Quote from mysterikmagick

    It's the ultimate way to argue that having a huge fandom that pays to see you live is what matters. It's an extremely biased argument but so are the arguments that try to downplay the importance of touring success.


    The reality is if people aren't coming to your shows, you aren't fully connecting. And if people are coming to your shows but your music consumption numbers are weak -- there's something off there, too.

    I don't have a problem with using touring numbers to represent the strength of a group's fandom. At all. I'll probably make a thread about Mamamoo soon, and I will certainly reference their concerts and tours to illustrate my point.


    My issue is when certain people and fans present touring as the end all be all stat for any conversation on popularity and nothing else matters.


    Which is funny because it usually comes from girl group stans, and that argument would mean girl groups have always paled in comparison to boy groups popularity wise by several magnitudes.

    The premise of the thread is wrong


    It's not that touring became the paramount instance of popularity but of success


    And by success I mean commercial and monetary success, as touring is where money is



    The reason why they became so important is because now we have feasible sources to check touring data. Aside of that people is growing exceedingly suspicious about album sales, mainly driven from chinese bulk purchases with non shipping bskc strategies and perhaps with a much lower revenue generated because those albums are sold with big discounts


    It's harder to fake touring data. You can hide them, but people can check the ticket sales on digital marketplace. You just can't get away with flop tour numbers. You either is popular enough to fill the concert or you're not



    As for charting and streaming let's be real, only GG stans care about those things. It was the same in every generation

    maybe it should be the combination of all of those metrics not just a single one.


    the three top acts don't lack anything, Twice used to have top digital so it is not like they are lacking, just they pass their peaks.

    Quote from Icaro_Ribeiro

    The premise of the thread is wrong

    How can you make that statement when the premise of the thread is based entirely on arguments that have been presented to me. If you think my premise is wrong, then you've misinterpreted it and actually proven it right, since my position is clearly that touring is not the only relevant measure of popularity

    Ok, I'm not gonna lie, I stopped at Newjeans. U wrote a lot more about Newjeans than Mamamoo in this example tho. So I know where the focus really was.


    But about Mamamoo, Do you also think G-idle would've filled the same places? Who has more international streams? Was it just basic casual kpop fans that went to see Mamamoo? Who sells more records in total?


    There's definitely more factors, but being able to tour is the biggest. It shows that you cemented a fandom. And that's where the money is. That will help them get endorsements. It's always been a huge metric. There's been no shift? Maybe only in kpop, but it's always been a singers main goal. To be a Global touring star. That gets your music out to the whole world and gets you a solid fandom worldwide.


    In the beginning of a kpop career, it's definitely mostly about streams and albums and whatever, bc it takes time to actually tour.


    But when groups actually start touring, ppl use the numbers as a great metric to base popularity. Which is not wrong imo.

    Let me ask you all this.


    Do you think the members of Sistar are struggling to make ends meet?


    They never solidified a strong fandom and could barely sell out fan meetings.


    And yet Dasom, arguably the least popular member, purchased a real estate property for 2.8 million dollars


    There is money in touring, but people need to stop acting like you can't make any good money as an artist without it.


    Being loved by the public makes good money too long term

  • AllKill VIP

    REAL TALK Sistar the best KPOP group ever WBK


    THE B.E.S.T SISTAR


    Style shake sistar GIF - Find on GIFER

    It depends on their lifestyle. If you live like Johny Depp, you will go broke very soon.

    Quote from YamaChwan

    How can you make that statement when the premise of the thread is based entirely on arguments that have been presented to me. If you think my premise is wrong, then you've misinterpreted it and actually proven it right, since my position is clearly that touring is not the only relevant measure of popularity

    The premise is wrong because you assume popularity and success are synonymous. They are aren't


    You can be highly famous and popular, but if your audience is mostly composed of casual listeners then you can be successful but not as successful as artists who can make tours


    To have big tours you need a combination of fans willing to spend money and casuals interested enough in you to open their wallets. The more you have of one the less you will need from the other.



    But that's all arguing semantics



    If you Want to understand when kpop community started to pay closely attention to touring?



    I'd say as soon as album sales started to outmatch concert audiences for many degrees. Before that people used to equal album sales with touring power barring some cases like BB where the concert attendance was much bigger than album sales.


    It's not like touring became the most important metric all of sudden, but rather that people can now track ticket sales and use them to determine wether their album sales makes sense or are just inflated. Twitter accounts lurk every day of ticket stores to check if the groups they hate are flopping lol

    Mamamoo built a reputation as great live performers and even If they don't have one of the biggest fandoms out there, people are still inclined to pay to see them live and they can fill big venues.


    In my opinion, I think there isn't a bigger accomplishment as a musician/interpret than seeing so many people singing along with you to your music. These times are when I see singers the most emotional...


    Through NewJeans on Lollapalooza's set I could see they are capable of build a reputation as a touring act. I mean, even If I wasn't a fan, I'd pay to see them. And they will only get better and better due experience.

    Generally speaking, you can make money as celebrity but as artists? I don't think so


    For instance, Selena Gomez has pathetic touring numbers for someone with her degree of popularity. She make things up with Instagram posts and created a cosmetic brands which are giving her millions every years


    This make her a successful musician? Hardly. She's just a celebrity. But it's a celebrity who can generates several times more money than truly successful A list singers


    Sistar members indeed barely release music nowadays except for Hyolyn who seems to be genuinely passionate about being a singer. This imply most of Sistar members are very well aware their music career will bring them only pennies

    This is a perfect segway into my next point.


    This time I will exclusively use Mamamoo as my example, since I know their whole story like it's my own.


    20 months since debut.


    That's how long it took Mamamoo to pay off their 2 billion won debt to their company RBW.


    This was less than 2 years. They didn't even start to become a trendy group until 2015. They weren't a top group until 2016, and then they took off.


    This is years before they started touring. Years before they even sold 100k albums, back when that was impressive still.


    They cleared their debt and became extremely wealthy SOLELY from becoming an extremely popular group with the public and being in demand all over Korea. And they were extremely successful too.


    They did have a core fandom that was large, and still is larger than people realize, but like I said, we weren't filling out huge venues back then, and Melting, their breakthrough album, sold around 23k copies.


    I'm not saying touring isn't a huge indicator of success, but again, the argument presented to me repeatedly this month alone is that it's the only measure and that groups can't be profitable or make great money without it.


    I need these people to explain Sistar and early career Mamamoo to me then.

    Quote from killthisfenty

    I’m sorry but before Spotify it was Melon and YouTube. Even sales weren’t a clear indicator since GG used to lack.

    It’s easy now to access to touring datas so idk why it shouldn’t be a metric of success and how big a fanbase is huge.

    A group pulling million fans is more impressive than selling million and struggling to sell tickets.

    I did not make the statement or even suggest that touring shouldn't be a metric of success or that it doesn't indicate the size of a group's fanbase.


    I pushed back on the belief that it is the only measurement of success that matters and that all previous metrics are irrelevant or never mattered in the first place.


    I implore everyone to focus and look at what I'm actually discussing here.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from Icaro_Ribeiro

    Sistar members indeed barely release music nowadays except for Hyolyn who seems to be genuinely passionate about being a singer. This imply most of Sistar members are very well aware their music career will bring them only pennies

    I feel like this is quite underrated when it comes to success


    There is a reason why so many 2nd Gen idols who don't make music, are still able to thrive in the industry now. Maybe not at the level they once were but comfortable enough.


    Realistically many of these idols are not going to do music forever, they would venture into other things like acting, variety etc etc. You aren't going to be doing world tours for like another 10 more years and another 10 more years.


    And the reason why a lot of 2nd Gen idols can do this is because they made a name for themselves when they were active so that even when they are not actively doing music, they are well known enough to still find working opportunities in SK.


    Which is also why I tend to think that domestic popularity is more important to most people because you won't make music forever but once you make yourself known you can do whatever you want after.


    You don't need to always be at the top, but do well enough to still guarantee yourself work opportunities once the inevitable happens which is disbandment/inactivity for many groups.


    Like lets say BlackPink now, they can probably not release any music for the rest of their life, and still lead an amazing life because their individual brand name is so strong now which isn't tied to music (well not that they have a lot of music though to tie it to them)

    A big reason is touring numbers are easy to verify and there's been a prevailing opinion that tours pay more


    And in a general sense, both these things are true. They're not hard and fast like many fans pretend they are (artists can and have been paid more from brand deals or merch sales than touring.)


    but in the most fundamental sense touring = money and more money = more popularity.

    Quote from YamaChwan

    I did not make the statement or even suggest that touring shouldn't be a metric of success or that it doesn't indicate the size of a group's fanbase.


    I pushed back on the belief that it is the only measurement of success that matters and that all previous metrics are irrelevant or never mattered in the first place.


    I implore everyone to focus and look at what I'm actually discussing here.

    Like no one said that touring is the only relevant metric you seem pissed because people keep coming for NJ touring power :teeheek:


    Charting well, cfs etc ≠ having a big fanbase who’s willing to see you on your. Which NJ doesn’t have yet there extremely which is a fact that’s it.


    Your post has nothing to do with what you said

    You need to have money to make money. Dasom isn't buying a nearly 3 million dollar rental property if she made pennies from her time in Sistar. And the other ventures she was given the opportunity to invest in would've never been available without her group's massive popularity with the general public. Even their farewell song was a chart topping hit.

    Quote from buffyfan

    There's definitely more factors, but being able to tour is the biggest. It shows that you cemented a fandom. And that's where the money is. That will help them get endorsements.

    I meant to respond to this, as it's just wrong.


    There are powerful benefits to touring. Endorsements absolutely positively aren't one of them.


    Mamamoo got a ton of endorsements from being one of the public's favorite groups long before touring. NewJeans has more endorsements than any group in K-Pop, and started getting love calls right after their explosive debut. So many in fact that ADOR used their being in high demand from dozens of brands as a form of media play.


    Endorsements are a function of general popularity. Not touring.

    Since everything can be faked and manipulated by kpop companies and fandoms except touring: you can manipulate youtube numbers with paying a shit ton of ads or cyber cafes streaming farms on sea, spotify numbers paying playlisting, radio popularity using payola, album sales with making a ton of versions, digipacks, photocards, discounts, chinese fans bulk buys, even kcharts can be manipulated using streaming farms, hell you can even manipulate tiktok by paying influencers or tiktok itself. Fandoms so far CAN'T

    manipulate tickets sales, you cant buy 1,000 tickets and even if you can the show will still look empty.


    blackpink $300M with born pink tour and twice $150M with ready to be tour just with offline tickets alone, nothing about merchandise, online viewership and more are numbers barely seen before and so huge most kpop stans cant grasp how huge they are.


    Also nobody has ever said touring is the ONLY measure of popularity and success and less for the only 3 groups who are actually touring monsters in kpop bts, blackpink and twice, all of them excel or are solid in every other category, who is this even about.

    Quote from killthisfenty

    Like no one said that touring is the only relevant metric you seem pissed because people keep coming for NJ touring power :teeheek:


    Charting well, cfs etc ≠ having a big fanbase who’s willing to see you on your. Which NJ doesn’t have yet there extremely which is a fact that’s it.


    Your post has nothing to do with what you said

    I actually don't care how you feel about NewJeans, so if you thought this was a "gotcha" moment, then you're about to be bitterly disappointed.


    There are people with actually interesting personalities that I'd rather discuss this with.


    Go apply your clown makeup in another thread :pepe-clown-gear::pepe-joy:

    Quote from Fluffers

    A big reason is touring numbers are easy to verify and there's been a prevailing opinion that tours pay more


    And in a general sense, both these things are true. They're not hard and fast like many fans pretend they are (artists can and have been paid more from brand deals or merch sales than touring.)


    but in the most fundamental sense touring = money and more money = more popularity.

    I don't disagree with this take at all. Mamamoo finally being able to successfully tour the U.S. (and I went to 4 of their stops) remains one of my proudest experiences as a fan. Seeing sold out arenas in NY, LA and Chicago was surreal, because I know where they came from and how hard they worked.


    But that's also why I push back on people that completely minimize any measurement of success that isn't touring, because the MyCon tour would've NEVER happened if Mamamoo didn't become a massive hit and trendy group with the public. They are very candid about how they would've looked at potential disbandment if their songs didn't perform well for their next comeback (they did and the rest is history).


    If someone came to me in 2016, when Mamamoo was everywhere in K-Pop, and said they weren't a successful, popular or profitable group, I would've laughed in their face and everyone else would've joined me in laughing.


    But I digress, your point is well made and I actually agree with it. I'm more targeting the extremists with this thread, and looking to expose the holes in their logic.


    Popularity and profitability is more nuanced than "only touring numbers matter"

    Quote from Fluffers

    A big reason is touring numbers are easy to verify and there's been a prevailing opinion that tours pay more


    And in a general sense, both these things are true. They're not hard and fast like many fans pretend they are (artists can and have been paid more from brand deals or merch sales than touring.)


    but in the most fundamental sense touring = money and more money = more popularity.

    so whoever makes more money is more popular :/ not just touring specifically

    then we should use financial statements from each label then :skull:

    Quote from hieuken

    so whoever makes more money is more popular :/ not just touring specifically

    then we should use financial statements from each label then :skull:

    It's pretty obvious who's paying the bills in RBW.


    And we all remember who had the highest profit margins of Hybe's sublabels when they released their earnings report :eyes:

    Using touring as the most important metric to gauge popularity is kind of weird to me.

    Correct me if I am misinfo, but Treasure (the boygroup that many K-pop stans call flopping has better touring numbers than most of the top 4-gen gg maybe Aespa is an exception) but are they popular?


    Also, I think NJ should be exempt from this conversation.

    They can't tour right now so we don't really know their demand, they clearly don't have enough songs to tour lmao.

    How can people expect them to tour?


    The top 3 acts: BTS, BP, and Twice are not just touring monsters.

    They are doing well on all metrics (for Twice has many hits songs).

    this is weird take even though new jeans is so successful but they still not above bts, bp and twice three groups create market not just for them but also open markets to new groups too. I think new jeans need a lot of time to reach that level

    Quote from YamaChwan

    You need to have money to make money. Dasom isn't buying a nearly 3 million dollar rental property if she made pennies from her time in Sistar. And the other ventures she was given the opportunity to invest in would've never been available without her group's massive popularity with the general public. Even their farewell song was a chart topping hit.

    The point is their music career ended being only a proxy to TV appearances, acting gigs and modeling. Nothing of this is music related. An YouTube can get all this, as well as people who do nothing from their lives other than posting on Instagram. We have even examples as far as Suzy who is clearly more celebrity than singer and is widely know not because of her musical activities, rather her hits are a byproduct of her media stats


    If it goes as far as you not needing to keep investing in your music career anymore to make your money then it's clear you shift your priority from being a singer to be an actor, model or whatever


    Meanwhile touring is by far the most secure source of income for a music career, with sales being the second one, although with streaming I might argue in long term streams can surpass albums if the artists lose their fandom/purchasers as with streams people can keep listening you passively forever and generate passive income. I mean, Blackpink just finished a tour that generated 200 million USD in a year. Album sales and streams are nice, I wouldn't mind having big album sales whp wouldn't want to sell a lot? But their gross revenue just pales when compared to touring, that's the point.

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