Posts by Disevidence
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I think people use spotify because it's easy to find data to support claims.
I understand that. But if that's your source of main data, then the conclusion is "strong in certain spotify countries" not "international" with no disclaimers or context. And, as I said, understand that with how some labels purchase arrangements with spotify, understanding there needs to be some an understanding of the level of engagement.
For example, let's argue that say, an IVE song and an LSF songs both had 1.5m spotify streams for one day. I would EASILY conclude that the IVE song had more actual popularity then the LSF song, because we know that Hybe leans heavily on Playlisting and Discovery (seriously, a b-side in a massive playlist as soon as it's released? cmon now) and Starship does not.
So both have same numbers, but one is above the other in people actively seeking out the song.
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Only comment I have is do people know that Spotify is only about 25% of international listeners?
Using Spotify for a short hand for "intl metrics" is incredibly, incredibly flawed, not even getting into autoplay and playlisting which boosts streams.
I've got no qualms if people want to talk internationally, but you need to talk about ALL international, not a very narrow set of criteria that matches your narrative. That, right now, is LSF fans who bring up Spotify (which Hybe makes a very specific effort with extra "tools" to assist) but ignore how strong some of the top groups are in non spotify countries, and/or on Youtube Music, which has a different demographic and geographical spread.
Do LSF have some clout internationally? Certainly. But going "oh they did x on spotify" doesn't take into account massive listening countries who use other platforms, foremost being China, Spotify doesn't have anywhere near the penetration in Europe it has in USA, and as I said, if a company specifically uses, let's call them, "promotional tools" - that should be weighed in.
You don't count Youtube Ad views on Youtube for obvious reasons when comparing metrics. So why are we not taking into account Spotify Discovery and Spotify playlisting the same way?
That''s the only question i want answered. Why is it complete radio silence whenever that topic is broached. Everytime someone brings this up suddenly people who couldn't shut up about international listeners are suddenly mute.
FWIW - I think LSF is still the same tier as the Aespa/IVE/Idle/NJ. I dont' support the OP's claim. But LSF fans, if you want to have this discussion, you need to get far smarter about this.
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While selling almost the same album than HOT will probably sell with their last album
Hot 1st Week Sales - 600k
Crazy 1st Week Sale - 677k
(2) 1st Week Sales - 1.5mI Sway 1st Week Sales - 1m
Hell, Yuqi on her solo effort is very close to the sales that "HOT" currently has.
Idle have dropped on Spotify, it's true. But unlike Nmixx, Stayc, and even LSF, they still have strong Youtube Music (ad free) streams, and also unlike those 3, they sell well in China Digitally (which doesn't have Spotify).
I think the OP's premise is flawed but let's not just pile more misinformation upon another.
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Wtf is that chorus man. Wtf is that vocal direction/vocal tone.
How did this pass through the checks. Is RADO just utterly washed?
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everyone's least faves
Someone can be your fav and you can still recognize they may be of lesser importance to the group.
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I don't need to know you. Using terminology like "hiding behind the company" (the company being the one they criticize) is a self-tell into how you frame this conversation. Only someone who is seeking an oppositional approach to these type of people would accuse them of hiding behind something.
You basically told on yourself with that statement. I thought you were actually wanting a convo about the label impact on idols etc, but when you said that (and other statements on this thread) it really all fell into place, logically.
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They hide behind the company?
I think i see the thread of where this is going. You feel people are disingenuous about their criticism, and couch it in terms to make it palatable. This isn't about honesty, this is about you trying to paint these people as "bad people" because they're attacking the idols directly.
The problem is, no-one wants to be honest. You don't want it anymore then the other "side" (so to speak) avoids honesty.
What do you want people to say? That 1/2 of those groups really have no business being an idol? Then people respond with "how dare you crush people trying to do their dreams". Which has nothing to do with the criticism. Nowhere in any discussion of anything to do with Kpop is anyone actually, bluntly truthful, because toxic positivity is enforced in most discussions and direct conversations about idols kills are verboten.
People going "the company is at fault" are simply playing in the sandbox made by people such as yourself, who have stripped any truth or objectivity out of any conversation, and made any place a forum for where blatant, completely ridiculous hyperbole is passed off as "appreciation and opinion" and pushing back on anything of that ilk is labeled "hating".
So no, I have no problem with people going after the labels like that. You are just seemingly upset they've used that loophole to get around the toxic positivity of kpop.
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Something along the lines of "their music sucks, they can't sing, production is awful, and they have no talent. Oh btw no shade to the girls, it's the companies fault lulz".
Except that's the same very excuse fans use too.
Music flopped? Companies fault. Promotions not make much noise? Companies fault. Singer didn't get the lines you wanted? Companies fault.
This is a strange post, as it's like "don't blame the companies" at people who criticize when both sides engage in the exact same behaviour - in fact I think fans would welcome the ire aimed at the companies rather then the members of the group.
If I think the music is bad, why on earth would anyone blame the group? They didn't compose or write the song.
Very odd post. Very incoherent.
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Marketing/Strategy
Music/Concept
Talent
I'll address talent as i appear to be the only voter.
Talent is big. Talent can be the gamechanger. Talent, particularly vocal talent, can really elevate and open up the soundscapes and potential songs that a group can use. Having confident vocals means they don't demure from encore stages, from uni festivals - its a level of confidence on the stage that translates very well.
Some of the most talented stage performers (CL, Soyeon) create and lead legendary performances that elevate their group. CL is well known, but take Soyeon - her group was having a bit of a sophomore slump, and through sheer talent and ideas - they bring creative, interesting stages, her opening rap was legendary in talent, and Idle overcome their sophomore slump and gained a huge fanbase. That was sheer talent, no 2 ways about it.
Look at vocally talented groups, such as Nmixx and Aespa. I'm not fans of theirs, but it really opens the door on what songs they can be given and can perform. It allows for the producers and the marketing team to not be hamstrung on certain events, certain concepts, because they have the full latitude to go after any song they want. Nmixx may have been impacted but poor songs upon debut, and there are other factors why they aren't a top group per se, but they won't ever be caught unawares if the right song falls to them.
Meanwhile, some (will not be named) groups with far less talent, particularly vocal talent, have to be hamstrung into certain ways of singing, certain lines for their members, or singing well outside their natural range, which causes performance issues, it impacts how good the song CAN sound etc. They have to work around these limitations, heavily processed vocals, eschewing live opportunities, and other factors which can cause backlash.
Talent is also longevity. After the hoopla of the fresh faced new group and the visuals they have becomes commonplace over time, talent is the x-factor in being able to stay relevant in the public eye. I don't think it's any coincidence that out of the longer lasting groups in the current landscape, general popularity wise, groups that reached 6,7,8 years at the top despite not having the best visual or the best label - they were very talented.
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I mean you are wildly incorrect about what Musical Identity is, but let's talk about your post anyway.
LSF's concepts are, in the end, extremely empty. It's all very, in trying to be generous to them, "pop psychology" stuff. It's what you'd find at the checkout store or hocked by some self-help influencer.
Their lyrics are surface level, and there's no underlying actions to support them. What's LSF's comeback? Oh it's going to be some incomprehensible lyrics with the illusion of depth, and we'll dress them in trendy street clothes. Next comeback? Oh it'll be some faux depth lyrics with... hey you guess it, trendy street clothes.
They are a marketing focus group led kpop group. Watch me as I reveal their amazing strategy
- Take stock of what's currently popular in Tiktok or on Spotify
- Get their mostly male 30-40 year old producers to rework purchased songs from swedish song mercenaries
- Throw in some absolutely indeterminable garbage lyrics that suggests there's some deep philosophy in play.
- Here are some of the dumbass lyrics from their latest release, the 1st track, and was on their promo material -
QuoteDisplay MoreThe flame engulfed the silence, splitting apart the dark
The fire grew larger chasing after the illusion of the unreachable sun
In the end, it devoured itself and scatterеd to ashes
A paradoxical existencе
A vanishing point of blue light in finite time
The fire awakens again from the ashes as a kindling
The ember, with its resilient heat, melts the coarse grains to translucenc
Lots of words, very little substance. It fails a poetry, it fails as anything evocative, it's just someone who's chat gpting some verbose sentences together to try to make something.
LSF's entire identity is just emperor's no clothes sort of stuff. People treat it seriously, for example your post, when in reality they've got no identity whatsoever. Try to stop deluding yourself.
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Put this post in the "recency bias" entry in a textbook.
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Red Velvet and Lovelyz debuted from SM(at that time Woolim was part of SM), Twice from JYP, CLC from Cube, Sonamoo from TS(still had some power back then), April from DSP(which still had some power remaining back then), D-IA from Kwangsoo's company (which also had some power remaining), 7 which I could remember immediately.
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I’m talking about real singers not about manufactured kpop groups.
Well the rest of us are.
Of course actual singers are different (to an extent). Western Singers are populated with singer songwriters who write their own stuff.
But we do have actual demo recordings of songs written for people like Rihanna, and even then it's not far from the Kpop experience.
But we're talking about Kpop. If we weren't then your rapper examples would be even MORE egregious then they are. If you want to talk about non kpop rap then buddy you are so far off I don't even know WHERE to start.
So please, stick to the subject matter. We're talking about kpop, kpop singers and kpop talent. So my examples above are accurate.
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I bet singer can learn to rap and write faster and does it better compared to rapper learning singing.
In both cases the result will be same. The stock standard singer trying to learn how to rap and write rap is always going to have very poor to basic raps, the same way the rapper (if they don't sing already) will be trying to sing. You just have no way to gauge quality in rap so you think terrible raps are fine and therefore accept mediocrity.
A rapper can get into the booth tomorrow and start singing. Will it be any good? Probably not. It'll be the exact same for a singer trying to rap, and/or write one. The outcome is identical in both cases.
You guys have no idea how talented and skilled the best rappers are in how they rap and write. They operate on levels far above most people.
Actually, in most cases singing means exactly that. Ever watched any of the "Recording behinds" from basically and major group these days? The vocal director and/or producer will often very meticulously instruct them how to sing the line, how to pronounce the words, the timbre and the effects they want to have on the line.
Yes the singer has to reproduce them, and sometimes they get told to sing it their own way, but most times it's actually very much the producer going "I want it to sound like this" and the singer replicates that.
They aren't out there with a lyric sheet and just doing whatever timbre and melody pops into their head. They're given a guide vocal with a melody, they have a producer/vocal director on the other side of the booth telling them how to sing it, how to pronounce it, how to vocalise it. That's, particularly for kpop,is what the singer does.
