NCT127 as the best Boy Group

    Ayyy...I agree with so much you've said here, Chounim, but EXO remains first for me. This isn't just because they were my first group, but I still feel that EXO remains superior. You know I love and go to war for NCT vocals but the Holy Trinity is still so above and beyond. I also think as you go through the layers of vocals that the sub vocalists in EXO (i.e. those that are not mains or leads) are much stronger than the Neos. I feel like in terms of vocals, EXO remains superior, as well as overall dance charisma. I think NCT 127 has more difficult and intricate choreo and I actually think they are better dancers [especially when you get in the weeds and compare the weakest dancers in each group] BUT as a group when they are dancing from a charisma perspective, I think the advantage is EXO. I love NCT choreo here, but there's something really extra impactful in EXO choreo to my eye. Visuals and variety I think they are equals, while rap definitely goes to NCT.


    I love seeing this discussion tho. :froghype:


    I also agree that Sticker is their best album. I loved Neo Zone but sometimes the shifts in tone could be jarring and some songs that didn't quite feel they fit in the vibe - I feel that Sticker is more cohesive and also paced better within the album.

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    Quote from the101

    Ayyy...I agree with so much you've said here, Chounim, but EXO remains first for me. This isn't just because they were my first group, but I still feel that EXO remains superior. You know I love and go to war for NCT vocals but the Holy Trinity is still so above and beyond. I also think as you go through the layers of vocals that the sub vocalists in EXO (i.e. those that are not mains or leads) are much stronger than the Neos. I feel like in terms of vocals, EXO remains superior, as well as overall dance charisma. I think NCT 127 has more difficult and intricate choreo and I actually think they are better dancers [especially when you get in the weeds and compare the weakest dancers in each group] BUT as a group when they are dancing from a charisma perspective, I think the advantage is EXO. I love NCT choreo here, but there's something really extra impactful in EXO choreo to my eye. Visuals and variety I think they are equals, while rap definitely goes to NCT.


    I love seeing this discussion tho. :froghype:


    I also agree that Sticker is their best album. I loved Neo Zone but sometimes the shifts in tone could be jarring and some songs that didn't quite feel they fit in the vibe - I feel that Sticker is more cohesive and also paced better within the album.

    The only vocal holy trinity oh kpop boy groups is KRY :mooning:


    EXO's mains are obviously stronger than NCT's but I don't agree that their leads and subvocalists are also better. In fact I find NCT's leads and subvocalists are much more interesting and ear-catching.


    Anyway, this is obviously subjective. I consider myself to be a casual listener of EXO but I was never really interested in them enough to stan even though I have known them since before debut, so it's only natural that I'd think NCT is better.

    Quote from DMV2DMZ

    SME is really good at training their people to hold a note. The best of the BIG-3 when it comes to singing.


    I don't think SME has showcased that in a way that has been d0pe for NCT. They have a few, but not enough to make me talk about the tracks like some of the other guy groups on the SM roster. I really would. I think it's "doable" too for NCT, but it seems as if it's not a priority to show all of NCTs "colors" at a "magnum opus" level. Their choreo could be d0per too, but if 👉💰 is the first and only goal, they are going to keep doing what they do and how they have been doing it.


    When it comes to "Sticker" as a song, I think the failure was how NCT's writing team approached the track. In my opinion, the instrumental is designed to highlight the rap bars and cadences by not being so strong that it takes focus and shine away from whatever is being said. Trust, this happens often. Some solid sing-rapping would have actually been cool too because it shows off how rap cadence is like "rhythmic season salt".

    Oh I completely disagree with almost everything you've said here. I think they have really gone in harder and more aggressively with "showboat" tracks to show off NCT's vocal firepower across the last few albums and EPs than they ever did in earlier NCT releases. Songs like "No Longer," "Day Dream," "Make Your Day" range from hardcore fireworks shows to stripped back vocal flexes. Make Your Day has a counterpart track in Magic Carpet Ride on this album, but the fireworks are on display on pretty much every song here, even the faster paced ones - like the chorus of Sticker. I also think there is a very conscious decision across their discography to choose songs different to their seniors, so that NCT can carve their own specific style.


    If money was their only goal, they would have long ago swapped their boundary-pushing, hip hop forward style to play it safe with a series of "Touch" type releases and warm fuzzy boyfriend styling. (And I love "Touch" tbh.) I have always appreciated that despite the extreme reaction NCT 127 gets with almost every title track, they have continued to push forward with bold title tracks. (Ironically, the last one that was not bold, "Superhuman" got its own push for being not different enough. Ay. I love "Superhuman" personally and think its retro MJ-style funk is fantastic and my fave 127 song, but man, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't).


    I also disagree on Sticker. I don't think it's a failure at all. Sticker reminds me a lot of the Timbaland-Neptunes style production of the late 90s and early 00s, which was meant to be unexpected and often jarringly so and took the listener on an emotional ride up and down through the song. And yet at the same time, to me, Sticker is meant to be slightly hypnotic, from the teasing flute to the cadence of the singers and rappers - it is intentionally slurry to glide along with the rhythms rather than pulling you out with rapid-fire staccato bars. Taeyong, in particular, is choosing some different approaches to his usual delivery, leaning harder into a sing-song tone here than his usual fast, slightly slurred style. Similarly, Mark is softer here than he could be - on purpose. I think this is also why there's a greater emphasis here on the lesser used rappers like Jaehyun and Johnny. (When many of us think of several 127 or SuperM songs, the first thing that comes to mind is a Taeyong or Mark rap and I think that's the opposite of what they're trying to accomplish here - it's not meant to stand out from the larger groove here.) I think my expectation would be really strong and propulsive raps leading into some punchy firepower on the chorus but instead the raps, vocals and beat glide along to set this slinky vibe. Having Taeil and Doyoung wailing hard in the chorus lifts this from just being a groove that rides the beat to take us up and down emotionally throughout the song.


    It also feels like the flute is more fused into the song than it is in other hip hop songs like "Mask Off" or "Portland" where the flute was more of a seasoning. The flute on those two tracks is probably more impactful and jarring in contrast to what's happening with the bars but I think that approach is inherently different than NCT's approach, particularly when NCT still have some power vocals in their pocket. A better comparison here might be "Get Your Freak On," which I have been thinking about since I first heard "Sticker". However, I think again there are differences - while I love my Neo rappers, they ain't Missy. (As much as I love the idea of Taeyong and Mark just spitting bars over that hypnotic Sticker beat.) And again, I think you're missing the opportunity to maximize on your amazing vocalists.

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    Quote from chounim

    The only vocal holy trinity oh kpop boy groups is KRY :mooning:


    EXO's mains are obviously stronger than NCT's but I don't agree that their leads and subvocalists are also better. In fact I find NCT's leads and subvocalists are much more interesting and ear-catching.


    Anyway, this is obviously subjective. I consider myself to be a casual listener of EXO but I was never really interested in them enough to stan even though I have known them since before debut, so it's only natural that I'd think NCT is better.

    I enjoy the discussion, because it did make me think really hard about the statement instead of just having a knee-jerk reaction. :borahae:

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    Quote from chounim

    Except they have been doing this for many years where they have been flops and non profitable. NCT was practically the slowest SM boy group to catch on and they never tried to change their style to become more friendly and less polarising. They're literally the opposite of the sell-out insinuation you're making.


    I'm not insinuating they are sellouts or trying to be sellouts. What say do they have when it comes to any of the main unit's track production? They go where their team lead's them and do what their team tells them to do. I'm saying their team could lead the guys better in putting forward more d0pe stuff if they mind the details well. D0pe is not about being more friendly or less polarising at all. It's about achieving a level of craftmanship or artistry and laying those cards out; it is what is it even in the Pop genre. Anybody with an ear will recognize and expound on it; "show and prove". Game recogs game.

    Quote from the101

    (Below with responses)

    Oh I completely disagree with almost everything you've said here. I think they have really gone in harder and more aggressively with "showboat" tracks to show off NCT's vocal firepower across the last few albums and EPs than they ever did in earlier NCT releases. Songs like "No Longer," "Day Dream," "Make Your Day" range from hardcore fireworks shows to stripped back vocal flexes. Make Your Day has a counterpart track in Magic Carpet Ride on this album, but the fireworks are on display on pretty much every song here, even the faster paced ones - like the chorus of Sticker. I also think there is a very conscious decision across their discography to choose songs different to their seniors, so that NCT can carve their own specific style.


    (1)R: I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me. "Make Your Day" feels more like a legit NCT vocals only track compared to "At Home" (the 90's influence feels forced for NCT). SME needs to make sure this side gets repped properly, so even if people think their experimentalization isn't done with enough style, there's decent and visible videos (these don't have to be MVs) like "Make Your Day" that can show off SME's institutional merit in singing.


    If money was their only goal, they would have long ago swapped their boundary-pushing, hip hop forward style to play it safe with a series of "Touch" type releases and warm fuzzy boyfriend styling. (And I love "Touch" tbh.) I have always appreciated that despite the extreme reaction NCT 127 gets with almost every title track, they have continued to push forward with bold title tracks. (Ironically, the last one that was not bold, "Superhuman" got its own push for being not different enough. Ay. I love "Superhuman" personally and think its retro MJ-style funk is fantastic and my fave 127 song, but man, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't).


    (2)R: I'm still unsure if music is a goal or just a tool to something else with how most tracks are handled by their team. My thing is this; if SME really want this group to be bold, help them to better become d0pe; SME need to be on top of their details. At least they would be making a hell of a statement. Especially if you are talking "Hip-Hop or Hip-Pop forward". They can have d0pe producers to make tracks for them, but if SME doesn't know what to do or who is best to put on those tracks, it's going to kill the vibe.


    I also disagree on Sticker. I don't think it's a failure at all. Sticker reminds me a lot of the Timbaland-Neptunes style production of the late 90s and early 00s, which was meant to be unexpected and often jarringly so and took the listener on an emotional ride up and down through the song. And yet at the same time, to me, Sticker is meant to be slightly hypnotic, from the teasing flute to the cadence of the singers and rappers - it is intentionally slurry to glide along with the rhythms rather than pulling you out with rapid-fire staccato bars. Taeyong, in particular, is choosing some different approaches to his usual delivery, leaning harder into a sing-song tone here than his usual fast, slightly slurred style. Similarly, Mark is softer here than he could be - on purpose. I think this is also why there's a greater emphasis here on the lesser used rappers like Jaehyun and Johnny. (When many of us think of several 127 or SuperM songs, the first thing that comes to mind is a Taeyong or Mark rap and I think that's the opposite of what they're trying to accomplish here - it's not meant to stand out from the larger groove here.) I think my expectation would be really strong and propulsive raps leading into some punchy firepower on the chorus but instead the raps, vocals and beat glide along to set this slinky vibe. Having Taeil and Doyoung wailing hard in the chorus lifts this from just being a groove that rides the beat to take us up and down emotionally throughout the song.


    (3)R: How can you mention Timbaland and not mention "Indian Flute"? More of a match in function to "Sticker"; not so much "knock" but a certain level of beat predictability in order to frame the focus around what's be said and how it's being said. I know about "weird" or "unconventionally cool" but still approaching a track in a way that comes out d0pe. The super producers mentioned are from a part of my area. My issue isn't the production, it's SME's approach. If it's really about the art, they would understand you shouldn't approach almost even uptempo song in the same couple ways. Where's the artistry in that? With SME knowing they are institutionally weak at training their talent in rapping and creating rap cadences. All these year and STILL not consistently connecting them with the right resources to actually become d0pe? That's the fail. That's setting them up to underperform more often than being on point.

    Why put the most popular rappers (doesn't always equal to to being the most skilled) on this track when it's SME rappers like YangYang and Sungchan who have a better feel for cadence and can bring out the best flavor in simple beats like this? That's part of what I'm referencing when it comes to showcasing the dimensions of the NCT guys properly (see R1). Why does SME send the same Avengers to do jobs that certain other Avengers are more efficient and effective at? Doesn't make sense if they want the song to be as lit as possible.


    It also feels like the flute is more fused into the song than it is in other hip hop songs like "Mask Off" or "Portland" where the flute was more of a seasoning. The flute on those two tracks is probably more impactful and jarring in contrast to what's happening with the bars but I think that approach is inherently different than NCT's approach, particularly when NCT still have some power vocals in their pocket. A better comparison here might be "Get Your Freak On," which I have been thinking about since I first heard "Sticker". However, I think again there are differences - while I love my Neo rappers, they ain't Missy. (As much as I love the idea of Taeyong and Mark just spitting bars over that hypnotic Sticker beat.) And again, I think you're missing the opportunity to maximize on your amazing vocalists.


    (4)R: I think SME really overlooked evaluating the "value add" of approaching parts of this song with sing-rapping. Lots of smaller companies do it comptently. It was already done in NCT U's "Birthday (Make A Wish)" in a vibey way by my guy Jaehyun and even in "Seventh Sense" (at 1:11). It shouldn't be hard for SME to do it again with some different cadences and be an extended vibe.


    Actually, my point is also proven and illustrated in the "Mask Off" Remix with Kendrick Lamar (below at 1:56) [explicit]. Future is the number one example of a long-time running "mumble rapper" (10:00 reference vid) [explicit] though. I don't expect NCT to be crazy lyrical, but it's SME who has to level up their popular rap guys to be better at flowing, switch ups and cadence. These kinds of songs are THE playground to do these sort of unexpected but satisfying things with skill. Do you think a track like "Sticker" could actually be about the same or possibly better with a more effective approach like this?

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    If you want to talk "left of center" Pop artists with Hip-Hop influences, no point of overlooking Missy's "Get Your Freak On Remix" with Nelly Furtado. Nelly Furtado isn't a rapper either but she knows how to approach a beat! Examples: "Big Hoops (Bigger The Better)", "No Hay Igual", and "I Will Make U Cry". Also, she's been bold with the musical influences in her catalog to be Pop. No real excuse for SME to eventually make something d0pe for this unit while still being experimental, eclectic, quirky or whatever have you. It all about learning how to do it with style.

    I dont have much to say about the rest of your comments but just to clarify -

    1) This is an NCT 127 track not NCT U. It's a fixed group - so they would not be selecting rappers from other units.

    2) Mark is a much better rapper than yang yang objectively.... (now if my subjective opinion was to come into it - I'd say while taeyong takes more risks with his flow and therefore sometimes misses - he's still better than yang yang (imo).

    Quote from DMV2DMZ

    EDITED: just tucking your responses in spoilers to keep this from being so large.


    Hmm. I think NCT nails that 90s vibe very well on From Home - the 90s vibe has long run through their tracks. Like songs like Summer 127 and City 127 have that feel of some 90s Troop style r&b (Spread My Wings was my mom's jam too).


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    What exactly do you think is "enough style" on the experimentation? I keep seeing you describe it as not dope enough or not enough art - can you give me some examples within kpop or the larger musical landscape?


    Like this is a gorgeous and dreamy song to me that doesn't need a visual because it paints the landscape in my mind with the production + outstanding vocals:

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    Similarly, Fly Away with Me loops me through an emotional journey that ebbs and flows (I picked the live version here just because it's more emotionally poignant to me in the vocals)


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    I misspoke earlier when I said Magic Carpet Ride was the sequel to Make Your Day, when it's really Rainy Night.


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    I think I'm beginning to understand, looking at your examples. You are looking for a simpler, more consistent beat looping through the instrumental, like Magic Flute or Make a Wish are all much more direct and straight-forward instrumentals. This is also the same in your comments on Dem Jointz tracks where your preference leans to the less idiosyncratic tracks and beats (Ya Ya Ya and Obsession. Both are great songs, but musically, the construction is simpler and less discordant as Kick It or Sticker. There's a rabbit hole there that both songs are designed to show off one of EXO's greatest strength, their vocals, while NCT's songs are built to show off their greatest strength, which is diversity/all-aroundness - i.e. vocals AND rap AND a range of styles in both, which I think is what Chounim was saying in her original post when she and I were discussing NCT and EXO.)


    I think you may be mixed up on NCT units.


    YangYang and Sungchan aren't in NCT 127 and this is an NCT 127 album? Do you mean to say that you'd rather see Sticker as an NCT U track instead of a 127 track, which features these members? I mean, they send the same Avengers because that's who's in the group. NCT 127 is Taeil, Johnny, Taeyong, Yuta, Doyoung, Jaehyun, Jungwoo, Mark and Haechan.


    I can see this point..


    Eh. I'm divided. I think again some of these elements you're referencing don't flow enough with the hypnotic vibe and lilt that is meant to happen to make the chorus snap more. In the examples you're using, the rap is meant to be the focus. I don't think the rap is meant to be the focus on Sticker, but rather an accent piece to the larger piece. Some seasoning in the sauce as it were. Again, there are a number of 127 or SuperM tracks where the rap is great and memorable but it is literally all you think about with the song or the first thing. This is different than a song like Mad City where rap IS the focus and Jaehyun is just there to add the seasoning.


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    Again, I think the gist here is that you want a simpler song structure and better flow. The challenge I have here though is the example you use "Make A Wish" is like the antithesis of great flow. It's a great song and a bop, but it stutters and misses some steps to me when some of the weaker rappers are on the track and killing the vibe a little bit (Lucas and Shotaro, I'm looking at you. I actually think Jaemin does a pretty decent job here although I'm not usually a fan of his rap.)


    Just one final note, you keep talking about art. This is SM. They're not about art, and certainly not in the group work - they want to achieve a specific sound that marries with the brand they've created, as well as creating a point of distinction from the other groups and sounds. It is very clear NCT 127 has a specific sound in both the tt and b-sides, just like their elders do. Now in their solo work or SoundCloud work, I think we'll start to see more shades of what they want to do as artists, and then down the line, how they want to bring that back to the group work, just as we've seen with older SM groups.

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    Edited once, last by the101 ().

    Part 1!

    Quote from kpopnewbie32

    I dont have much to say about the rest of your comments but just to clarify -

    1) This is an NCT 127 track not NCT U. It's a fixed group - so they would not be selecting rappers from other units.

    2) Mark is a much better rapper than yang yang objectively.... (now if my subjective opinion was to come into it - I'd say while taeyong takes more risks with his flow and therefore sometimes misses - he's still better than yang yang (imo).

    2) I think that could be proven, either way, by putting all the rappers on a track. If the three guys who rap most often are SME's "best", then there's a heck of a lot more work that needs to done. There already is.

    Part 2!

    Quote from DMV2DMZ

    Part 1!

    2) I think that could be proven, either way, by putting all the rappers on a track. If the three guys who rap most often are SME's "best", then there's a heck of a lot more work that needs to done. There already is.

    They did.

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    First rapper: Mark

    2nd: Taeyong

    3rd: Jeno

    4th: YangYang

    5th: Sungchan

    6th: Hendery

    7th: Mark's back again

    8th: Johnny

    9th: Taeyong's back again


    I think it's obvious that Mark, Taeyong, YangYang and Sungchan are yards ahead of the others. (There are several other rappers from NCT who are not even on this track. They are not stronger so it's fair.) From there it's a matter of your taste in styles to me. I certainly have several I think are better but it is dependent on your style preference - if you like a more propulsive or more languorous, more straightforward or more stylistic rap style.


    Looking across other SM groups, I'd say with confidence these are the best rappers and I suppose again, it's all about preference. None of these dudes are Kendrick Lamar. But then this is kpop, so that's not my expectation, particularly when there is a thriving and healthy k-hiphop scene. Context is everything - within kpop these are very strong rappers, IMO, and the bar is continually rising.


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    Looking at this performance from last year's MAMA, I can see the levels of quality have risen in bg in kpop so that it's not just one person or one group with solid rap skills (I think Monsta X's pair Joohoney and IM are better than the Neos here and some of my faves from a rap perspective - I just don't usually care for the Monsta X songs themselves).


    Now this is an incredibly valid point (re: throwbacks) - it's never bothered me because I grew up on that style of music and love it, but it's valid here. Can't cosign on Spread My Wings tho - I don't emotionally connect on a heart level at all to that song. It's just a feel good happy jam. That's it - which is similar to me about Summer 127 and City 127. (Summer 127 in particular always reminds me of that song just amped up). I bop my head when they come on but they aren't some profound musical experience.



    I really like that Dawn Richard track! Since this is kpop, I don't expect Bjork. I don't think those Itzy instrumentals are very interesting and some already sound a bit dated to me. Again, this could be a taste preference..but thanks it's interesting to hear your perspective. Just a few of the NCT instrumentals I think are interesting:

    Cherry Bomb Instrumental

    Punch Instrumental

    Sticker Instrumental

    My Van Instrumental (overall this track was a very interesting one and different than the usual approach.)


    I disagree about them feeling empty - but again, I suppose that's mostly subjective. I can't listen to Mad City and not feel the heart there or not think that performance (esp. live) isn't lit. I don't think anyone thinks SM rappers are on the same level as SM singers. I think most think they have tremendously improved in this area (they have) and have some diamonds in the rough (they do) and I think it hold promise in coaching future artists that it's an area they're actually thinking about potential skill in rather than just using it as the place for people who aren't great singers. Although I get the impression you think very little of Taeyong's rapping, he was the one coaching Sungchan (who you do seem to like on his rapping). There was actually an interesting behind the scenes video on this.

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    Quote from DMV2DMZ

    Part 2!


    I don't think Mask Off is hotter than what Kendrick Lamar was doing in the remix. I do go back to my original point that the bars aren't meant to stand out on this specific track, but rather to loop into the sound and ambiance. I don't think rap bars are supposed to hype a song if that's not what they're designed to do for that song. For example, this looping style is about the rap and the lyrics, sure, (and because I don't speak Korean, I'm reliant on translations and may not appreciate clever word play that is happening in NCT songs) but they're choosing a specific vibe here so the bars flow with the music rather than jumping out from it.


    (Sidebar: what happened to Nelly tho?)


    Hmm. I hear what you're saying but I don't think all raps have to have an electric and crazy hype - some styles are going to be more laidback, just as some rappers have a more laidback approach. But I also understand that this is kpop and so I'm only going to get 2-3 predominantly rap tracks on each release. I think Jaehyun is tremendously underappreciated (as both a vocalist and a dancer, I think he is excellent. I don't think rap is his skill set although they use his deeper tone well on the tracks), however it's always interesting to me that you highlight him as the one with the vibe (considering how most people underappreciate him).


    Man, this is kpop - it's all about the dollar. There's a reason each company "builds" and designs a group a specific way. That's not a SME thing - that's a kpop thing. That's not to say that art can't happen and that's not to say that the artists themselves don't consider their work art or aren't striving to make art (from the songwriters to the producers to the artists). And really that's not just a kpop thing - there are lots of folks making big money in the music industry who aren't about the art. It's just very strange to me to see a gripe about people in kpop of all genres and making art. They want to make a great song and they want that to sell. Sometimes they want to make an interesting or creative song - and sometimes that's for larger reasons (differentiation, growth, expansion, on brand) - but at the end of the day, it's always about the dollar in some way.


    There are a lot of people outside the fandom - including music critics - who respect and enjoy the music, but this whole argument I think will just be a circular one between us.


    You don't think NCT is "d0pe" or "cool" and that it's only about "fandom sales." That's cool. I disagree and I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on that. All kpop groups are driven primarily by their fandom, and honestly at this point, many musical genres are driven by their fandoms. If you look across the top selling tours in the US last year, it's not the people with the hits on the radio - it's groups that built their fandom (Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, etc). They don't call it a fandom but that's exactly what it is - a loyal base of consumers who purchase the music and tours. For NCT, the fanbase or fandom is growing - the fact that they were selling out at Target - hell, even selling at Target in the first place -shows there is a growing interest in their music. They will never be mainstream (most kpop artists won't), and that's fine, again there are groups making a hell of a lot of money off albums and tours that don't see the Hot 100.


    I'll continue to enjoy the interesting and addictive work they're putting out - maybe down the line they'll put out another one you love!

    ..............................................................................................................perfume

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