When someone tells me BTS have “westernised”

Quote from ohpuhlease

I think many people were complaining about PTD being sung in an English language and not Korean while never criticising them for releasing Japanese music. Might be that?

Yeah I've discussed this before on here, quite recently too about the why the reactions are different, although it wasn't related to fetishisation.

You can still fetishise Asians if they sing in a non-Asian language, I don't think that has stopped anyone before.

Didn't stop Oli

They could sing a Spanish song, and it wouldn't decrease the "fetishisation level" they're under. I think people would go harder for them singing in Spanish than in Japanese, and by people I mean I-fans (possibly western fans that she is referencing?) There are I-fans that speak Spanish too, obviously, but their language isn't as dominant globally as English and so it wouldn't be seen as counter hegemonic.

Tbh Asians singing and speaking English with an Asian accent can be like a kink for some people.

Quote from musicqueen

She did explain it tho? If you go on twitter (and some people on akp too actually), there is a huge discourse about the 3 songs in English. NOT because of how it sounds but solely because of English. And people are saying exactly what she said, they are singing in English and losing their Korean identity blah blah.

If the problem was with bts singing in a different language, the same energy would be seen for film out but it was not. People were literally praising it left and right. So the problem is clearly them singing in English. And it points to the deeper problem of Asian fetisization. But you can only see the problem if you want to so🤷‍♀️

That's not an explanation.

The issues with English are also related to the concept of hegemony and other comments the members have made themselves prior to 2020 about English music (which are related to identity and authenticity) but it seems most people get over that if they like the individual song that they release.

I think they'd still be fetishised if they sang in a non Asian language.

If they decided to release a Spanish single, everyone would be hyped.

They were hyped at the idea Jhope might be singing in Spanish in CNS before it dropped.

The unfamiliarity of that language that is key, and also how dominant, how well represented the language is in music.

(Foreign (being foreign to the listener) language songs are a double edged sword at the end of the day. Not being able to understand the lyrics and pronunciation straight away can negatively or positively impact your listening experience.)

In interviews when they speak in English, people find them especially cute, so it isn't that any association with English language is rejected by I fans.

They can still be fetishised based on their accents when they speak English and their looks.

Speaking or singing in English doesn't just take away their korean-ness.

Kind of offtopic, but visual representations are so much more impactful than words. Someone could write whole long essays, but these here summarize the situation very concisely. Kind of like graphs vs numbers.

And yes. Its not even about westernization or not. If BTS would stop growing, changing and developing, I would not stan them. Its sad for musicians to be stuck in a box where the public or fans have put them in and becoming a parody of themselves. I'm glad theyre making the music they want and which reflects where they are right now as people and what they want to convey.

Quote from musicqueen

Basically summarizes everything I want to say

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Oh she spills...

Quote from Queeeenie

I think they'd still be fetishised if they sang in a non Asian language.

If they decided to release a Spanish single, everyone would be hyped.

Hmm, so you mean to say that if they sang in any non-english language they wouldn't get as much backlash if any. Why is it so? I want to hear your opinion on this.

Cause if it was about representation in media and charts I think most people would prefer to have their culture/nation represented by their own acts rather than a Korean group singing in different languages.

So why do you think only the English language gets this much backlash?

Quote from musicqueen

Hmm, so you mean to say that if they sang in any non-english language they wouldn't get as much backlash if any. Why is it so? I want to hear your opinion on this.

Cause if it was about representation in media and charts I think most people would prefer to have their culture/nation represented by their own acts rather than a Korean group singing in different languages.

So why do you think only the English language gets this much backlash?

It's because it's part of the hegemonic culture, and I'm speaking in global terms here. Other languages and cultures are countering that. As I said, this would not really matter, as we can see by the numbers

racked up by their English songs, provided they liked the individual song.

At the end of the day, people complain but will still listen to English songs the most.

There is a focus on the ones who have concerns, for some reason.

I think there's an element of unfamiliarity in those other languages (if they don't speak it) that people find freeing for English speaking I-fans.

Something a fan said here about pop music particularly reminded me of this feeling.

There are some songs I listen to that I wouldn't like as much if I understood the lyrics as I'm hearing them. So the lyrics of English songs, for English speakers, would need to suit their taste in order for them to enjoy the song, whereas they wouldn't if it was in a language they didn't understand? It's an extra thing to think about.

It does seem that the lady was commenting on tweets from English speaking I-fans, perhaps Americans, but I could be wrong. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference anyway since people can read and learn lyrics for foreign songs Idk. Not everyone does that.

Btw I think the people who weren't happy hearing about PtD being in English felt that way because they had disliked either Dyna or Butter or both, and PtD was likely to be similar given that Columbia/Ron Perry was involved in all of them, and there was unlikely to be rap, or substantial rap.

It is not the same as their Japanese discography where they had lots of songs with significant rap verses.

It is also just not the same because a lot of non Japanese armys don't pay too much attention to their Japanese discography in the first place, given the promotion of it is limited.

Knowing that English songs will be promoted more than or as much as their Korean songs basically puts them at the same level of interest, at the forefront.

BTS' English songs are associated with certain themes now, the way their Korean and Japanese ones are.

It's not just the language on it's own, there is a context behind it.

I suppose there is a contradiction here. Armys do get excited when they speak other languages in concerts and interviews. We are used to hearing them speak in English and singing some phrases and words in English in their Korean and Japanese songs.

I know I would be pumped to hear them sing a song in my language. The difference would be ig that we know it would be a one time thing and unlikely to be promoted.

Quote from musicqueen

She did explain it tho? If you go on twitter (and some people on akp too actually), there is a huge discourse about the 3 songs in English. NOT because of how it sounds but solely because of English. And people are saying exactly what she said, they are singing in English and losing their Korean identity blah blah.

If the problem was with bts singing in a different language, the same energy would be seen for film out but it was not. People were literally praising it left and right. So the problem is clearly them singing in English. And it points to the deeper problem of Asian fetisization. But you can only see the problem if you want to so🤷‍♀️

Or English is their first language and they got into K-pop because it was different than their native language and they enjoyed that? Like to say that because people don't want to hear K-pop groups sing in English is because of Asian fetishization is a BOLD and very, very general claim. Many people have concerns about groups trying to appeal to the West. It's not even just about BTS either. I don't mind English songs but to generalize everyone in that way isn't right.

I wonder where people's energy go when they release Japanese songs. I guess BTS are catering to Japan.

Quote from musicqueen

Basically summarizes everything I want to say

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CLEARED

Quote from pikachuki

not being as prominent on k-media.

They stopped being on K-Media back in 2017 though, the fact they were on 3 shows this year already is already a little crazy

Well the origins of Kpop as a genre itself is Western,

And Western itself is an amalgamation of multiple genres from across the globe.

The West is the largest organized music market open to outsiders,

India and China while large in population, are either too diverse, too unorganized, too culturally or don't spend enough on music, to be an attractive market.

BTS has clearly indicated in many ways, that they are trying to break into the Western market - Dynamite, Butter and PTD are clearly designed to the Western market - not just in English language lyrics, but in themes and music etc.

Media campaigns, fan campaigns to buy all are made towards that reason.

Yes, Korean fans might feel conflicted about this. In one sense proud of BTS taking on the largest dominant market and in another sense disappointed that why should BTS pander to that market with such effort.

Is it not belittling that Western recognition is sought to establish what they know already as fantastic music etc.

No easy answers to that.

What is excused for business is not excused for politics or culture. Nobody complains when Samsung does things for other markets, but culture is too close to one's identity, that there are always concerns when it is seen as diluting or flirting with others.

But one can take a longer view of history.

In music, there are always times when one regional music goes global - ABBA for example, that did not end up making Sweden the dominant force in Music, yet even today Sweden has established a reputation for great music production behind the scenes, that many across the globe use their expertise.

Many other examples, Latin Pop, Afro.

But eventually the Swedish music, Latin music or Afro did not suffer because some group at a point went global.

They gave and took influences and continued on.

That is the nature of culture.

So emotional involvement in one group, should be tempered with such rational analysis. Still majority of BTS repertoire is Korean and even if they succeed to be a mainstay in Western music, they can't afford to ignore their base in Korea.

It is strange that the similar amount of noise is not made about Justin Bieber charting in top 10 in Korean charts, but BTS scrutinized for singing in English?

In any case, Music now is a global assembly line product like phones. The label maybe Samsung or BTS, but the components, parts, process, patents etc. are spread out in a global network. So it is impractical to be fixated upon cultural ownership anyway.

We may soon have AR Rahman scoring music for Taylor Swift English lyrics to be sung by Heize with rap by Doja Cat, produced by Emilio Estefan - the label could be a French music label.

So is it then a Heize Kpop song or what?

Well, for me, BTS is just BTS regardless of what language they sing in

Honestly, BTS music style has always changed, some I love, some I don't and that's okay. Why are people trying to control what they should do vs. not do? Particularly to the people who don't contribute to their financial growth, some of you are speaking too loud.