[let's discuss] Idols : Victim or Actor of the industry ?

  • AllKill VIP

    WARNING :



    Now that's it done let's discuss about something


    The place of Idols in the industry !!!


    Are they only Victims of this industry or are they actively participating in this industry ?


    These past few years we've seen the numbers of legal battle between idols and kpop labels increase.

    And recently the cases of NJ and Exo made people think a lot more about the situation of idols in the kpop industry


    Most of us consider Idols as victims of the industry.

    They have to face labels that weight billion of dollars and battle in court

    Against companies that don't care about their health, their mental health etc...


    But if we take a step back, look at the industry and take 5 minutes


    Can we really consider idols as only Victims ?


    Or are they maybe some kind of maoschist that they take part in a perverted industry on their own will ?



    Kpop wasn't as spead in the world and companies were able to bury their secret well in the past

    But with the switch in mentality from the public and with the different generations


    More and more idols have talk about the mistreatment that they faced when they were idols

    Trainee comes out to talk about the physical abuse and mental harassement they have to faced during their trainee days

    Company forcing them to do concept they are not okay with

    Etc...


    If in the past it was hard to get access to these informations and testimony, now we live in a world where everything is accessible

    So these practice in the entertainement industry aren't secret anymore


    So Why kpop trainee soon to be idols continue to sign these contracts while knowing the dark face of the industry and the behind the scene of this perverted industry ?


    It's too me like if tomorrow you meet someone you fell in love with

    You're "you" from the future came to warn you and tell you that the person you met is violent and will beat you if you date him

    Would you date him ?


    And i get it that they become idols to achieve their dreams of singing and dancing on stage

    But knowing all these dirty secret wouldn't just be better to debut as indy group or indy singer and avoid to face this mistreatment from big labels ?


    So that's my question


    Can we really consider Idol as simple naive victim of an industry ?


    Or idol position is actually a lot more complex than it seems and they are actually true actor of this industry and are actively participating and with their own will letting this system last ?

  • Go to Best Answer
  • AllKill VIP

    This thread was made to make us think and debate about something else than "who's the most successfull" etc....

    To be different from the usual thread we see on the forum

    SO stay civilized, respect other people opinion

    People who will be aggressive when quoting other people, looking down on other people opinion, etc ...


    WIll be directly reported to Mods !!!!


    Let's see if we can discuss about serious subject, and not only about kpop groups as civilize human !!!

    I think, at the very least, if they were a minor when they debuted, then they're more likely to be victims than not. They're inexperienced and naive, and could be surrounded by manipulative adults.


    And regardless of age, I'll always sympathize with an idol who says they've been abused and/or taken advantage of. The industry has a way of enticing people with big dreams and passions, many of them willing to risk it all. They may have responsibility in their decision to sign terrible contracts, but I still feel for them.

    I wouldn't call idols masochist, but i do think they know or should know they are signing an unfair contract, so if they do it anyways You need to prepare yourself in what might be happening, ofc that doesn't make it ok for idols to be mistreated or worse


    If an idol is mistreated they should speak up because that's not ok but you also need to understand how exausting and difficult becoming an idol is like the long working hours, the fake persona without flaws you have to present to the public, the beauty standars, i feel most idols know that will be part of their life


    And don't get me started on how hypocrital kpop fans are where they defend their faves blindly against any critisism trying to get the moral high ground just to criticize other idols for the same reasons their faves were criticized

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from kahei

    And regardless of age, I'll always sympathize with an idol who says they've been abused and/or taken advantage of


    Quote from TwiceKaren

    If an idol is mistreated they should speak up because that's not ok

    Ofc i need to make it clear that this thread isn't here to say exonerate company of their responsability


    But more to talk about the very interesting and curious position idols are in


    Cuz idols are victim of the industry, Yes


    But usually a victim is someone in a passive situation that suffered from something against their own will


    But idols are active victim that put themselves in these situation with their own will


    So i think the spot idol are in, is really interesting

    The logic on this is questionable for a number of reasons:


    You realize you can very easily flip this on any basically any career with a history of exploitation ie every industry? The exploited are never going to be responsible for their exploitation imo. The idea of "you knew what you signed up for, it's your fault so deal with it" is never going to work because there's ALWAYS going to be someone desperate enough to do the job. I've never heard of any industry dying out because of workers rights abuses. So long as there is room to exploit, a company will find someone to exploit whether it be the poor, the young, the already exploited young, foreigners, disabled etc.


    Has everyone not noticed how really young and poor idols stopped being debuted by Big 3 right around the same time the industry started tightly regulating contracts and then by 4th gen idols suddenly started debuting younger than ever?


    Idols —at least most that I've seen— can't be considered as participants or upholding standards when they're the only reason the industry ever changes to begin with. Change happens from within at the ground level, regulations are often written in the blood and suffering of the workers.


    You could look at all those instances and see a dangerous industry, or you could look at the after effects and see a much safer, regulated industry, which is absolutely true. Things are undoubtedly better they used to be. By no means are things perfect but it's understandable why people would feel the confidence to enter such an industry and write off past events as outliers or resolved.


    And side note: small labels have a horrendous track record with abuses, that's definitely not a safe option lmao

    Taking a risk by betting on yourself and investing in your dream is not something idols should be criticized for. The path to success in the Korean industry has been paved and managed by the companies; companies that idols have to contract themselves to for even a remote chance at becoming successful.


    I'm never, not ever, going to blame extremely young kids who either get actively recruited by labels or actively audition for them.


    I also find the logic of shifting blame to idols to be distasteful and illogical.


    If someone has a dream of being a firefighter, and loses their life in a fire, nobody goes "Well that's what they signed up for and they knew the risks, so some of the blame is on them."


    To use a less dramatic example, if an athlete goes pro in a contact sport and tears an ACL, we likewise don't go "Well that's always a risk in sports so the athlete has to take on some of the blame for exposing themselves to injury."


    If we use American Football for an easy example, EVERYONE at this point knows the short-term and long-term health risks that come with football, from concussions and eventually CTE that has led to tragic endings for multiple pro athletes, even suicide.


    Imagine if the league made ZERO efforts to protect their players or change rules to remove some of the brutality of the game, including implementing strict concussion protocols, and their reasons were "Well these athletes should understand the risk, and that they're getting the opportunity for life-changing fame and fortune in exchange for their potential safety, so we're not making any changes."


    I know what sparked this thread, and see what conversation you're trying to start, obviously, but it's a little tone deaf to me.


    The more blame we shift to idols, the less accountable the companies are being held.


    No thanks.

    ... :pepe-just-smile:


    Thunder stolen.


    :pepe-shame:

    I too am a victim of my company


    But I guess I choose it.


    At least I didn't sign some contract promising to be bonded for 7 years, can't say the same for people who chose to


    I guess I can leave anytime I want.


    Then again I'm currently happy being a victim


    :pepe_akorns::pepe_akorns:

  • AllKill VIP

    See you're just proving that some of you doesn't even take 2 minute to think and answer on the moment


    Cuz the thread is directly talking and limited to people who sign the contract


    From what i know it's not underage kids that sign their contract

    But their legal representant, so their parents


    So in this case it's the parents that need to be blame for lacking at their parents duty to protect their kids


    But this will be adressed in another thread

    You have done nothing to repudiate the crux of the message you just responded to.


    It's not that deep.


    If any blame is to be assigned for the abusive and exploitative practices and environments in the K-Pop industry, the ones who get the least amount of blame, if any, are the idols, most whom are CHILDREN when they first sign with a company.

    That’s unfair to say, and this applies to many industries . Look at the American film and music industry. Many know the dark side of both industries but many still pursue it because it’s a dream of theirs or they think they can make it.


    The above of course relates to Kpop. I assume most endure stuff in the industry because lifespan of an idol is short and want to fight for their dream . Many also feel there’s a reward of pursuing the career because it can open doors to acting, influencer, financial gain , fame, soloist career, variety gigs, and other benefits. So, it makes sense why idols endure the industry because they feel they can get something out of it .


    This is not just a kpop thing and it happens in many industries. Just think about regular jobs where people endure bs because they feel they can use experience for better jobs or advance within the same company

    literally any human who is voluntarily employed is at risk of being harassed and abused at their job, this does not inherently make them victims, nor does it mean they are contributing to the abuse or foreiting their rights to be a victim by accepting the job.

  • AllKill VIP
    • Best Answer

    The obvious answer is that they could be victims and actors. Some are victims. Some not.


    Idols and/or their guardians do share are responsible for the contracts that they enter. There is no one forcing them enter a field that is known to be physically and mentally demanding, and where the standard contract favors the standard company for elements such as termination. This is well-known information. It's well known that idols are forced to go on strict diets, spend years enjoying common activities in secrecy, and that they may not ever see any money in their careers. There are literally hundreds of alternatives that they can do in their lives, and dozens of options if they want to do something involving music.


    Them entering these imbalanced contracts does not give the company the right to abuse them or absolve them of their responsibility to their idols. South Korea may want to take a closer look into the mistreatment that idols endure during their trainee days and their careers and set into place stricter penalties for companies found to be abusing them and to disincentive the abuse every happening by doing things like making it easier to report abuses, etc.

    Quote from SooYoung

    But usually a victim is someone in a passive situation that suffered from something against their own will

    Not really, it's all a matter of perspective. Someone who did something voluntarily or started a situation can still be a victim in several complex scenarios, as being a victim and an aggressor are not always mutually exclusive roles. For example, in the law standards, if one person pushes another person, but the person who got pushed responds with excessive force, then the initial aggressor is considered the victim.


    Yes, that's true, but it's not the parents' fault that the industry is so exploitive. If my child wants to be an idol, I'd personally look into the company that they are auditioning for, but there are always bad people in "good" companies anyway. I'm sure many people who trained to be idols already knew this.


    otherwise, interesting thread



    My main takeaway is that idols shouldn't be allowed to debut until they're adults, that way if they face exploitation, then their development won't be as stunted. At the rate we're going, we're going to have 6-year-olds becoming idols one day, and that's not okay.

  • AllKill VIP

    My opinion has always been the same.


    People nowadays knows how the idol industry works, and a lot of people forgets that isn't the only option in Korea. People can also become a regular musician there, it's just that you won't have a million-dollar company backing you up, it will be hard to succeed, and probably you will need the skills to do it. This comes with its advantages and disadvantages. But they are known, they are not hidden.


    Then there are the established idols. They may or may not be victims, but established idols are perpetrators of the conditions of the industry. Few idols will you see speaking out in favor of or in defense of idols who are being mistreated or abused by the industry or companies. Idols are not going to go against the industry that is feeding them. They could do so many things, but they don't want to lose 0.01% of their salary.


    If the industry wants to change, it must change from within the country itself.

    Edited once, last by poteto ().

    Like 2

    I do have something to add that i think is a bit weird, idols start as trainees, and we all know that trainees are already experiencing a lot of unfair treatment or mental stress like some trainees said companies not always make youy diet but you are in an enviorement where you feel you need to die to compete with other trainees, they already have demanding physical classes in dancing and other things and even after all that they still sign a contract for 7 years when they already got a glimpse of how hard and mentally exausting the industry is which is something i don't understand, ofc i am only talking about mental stress and how rough becoming an idol is and i am not talking about being abused or anything of the sorts, companies definitely need to do better and held accountable for abuse of any sort and idols need better protection, i just don't know how that can be achived without the kpop industry changing in other ways

    Of course a company loving SM defending user like SooYoung will make this thread.


    But one thing I know is there are many people who have the same thought process as OP in kpop.


    They believe that if people want to go for their dreams then they HAVE to accept everything in the industry. That it’s wrong to want to be idols WITHOUT being okay with all the exploitation that comes with it.


    Like that’s such a remarkably stupid take that someone took the time to write is extraordinary.

    It doesn’t matter if it’s kids or adults actually.


    A lot of contracts are VERY CLEARLY exploitative. Both children and adults will be prone to singing things if it’s for their dream it does NOT give companies the right to be exploitative.


    Your opinion hinges on the fact that people CAN be exploited if they AGREE to be exploited.


    While the truth is you shouldn’t exploit people NO MATTER what. That exploitative contracts should NEVER be given to idols regardless of their ages to sign.

    In general the problem is exagerated. Very few are acctually "abused" and it they are, it's often the minor companies that have the problems. Yes, the trainee days can be tough and it can be stressful to be an Idol, but thats the case in all worklife, even if being a famous person puts a lot of extra stress, but that a life they choose themself. But in general today, very little problems.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from Rengya-Utoma

    Yes, that's true, but it's not the parents' fault that the industry is so exploitive

    Of course


    But it's the parent's fault for putting this kids in this exploitive industry

    When they are adults and are suppose to be aware of these things


    And as a parents you should fill your duty to protect and take decision for the benefit of your kids


    To me they are as much responsible than the company


    Cuz they know that trainee gets hit, are exhausted and face psychological harassment


    I don't understand how any parents with braincells would sign a contract to put their kids in such environment


    And let's not forget that the reason why this exploitive environment still exist

    It's because adults trainee and parents are ready to put themselvers or their kids through this


    If they would say Stop to this, companies and the industry would have to change


    The reason why the industry doesn't want to change

    Is because some people even while knowing everything happening are ready to go through this with their own will

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from Varenka

    The obvious answer is that they could be victims and actors. Some are victims. Some not.


    Idols and/or their guardians do share are responsible for the contracts that they enter. There is no one forcing them enter a field that is known to be physically and mentally demanding, and where the standard contract favors the standard company for elements such as termination. This is well-known information. It's well known that idols are forced to go on strict diets, spend years enjoying common activities in secrecy, and that they may not ever see any money in their careers. There are literally hundreds of alternatives that they can do in their lives, and dozens of options if they want to do something involving music.


    Them entering these imbalanced contracts does not give the company the right to abuse them or absolve them of their responsibility to their idols. South Korea may want to take a closer look into the mistreatment that idols endure during their trainee days and their careers and set into place stricter penalties for companies found to be abusing them and to disincentive the abuse every happening by doing things like making it easier to report abuses, etc.

    :snsd10::snsd10:


    First comment that i think really understood the whole point of this thread

    Being a k-pop idol itself is a career with many issues like sleep deprivation, forced diets, constant injuries, loss of identity, lack of privacy, emotional repression, public scrutiny, loneliness, mental health problems, juridical disadvantages we know, fan parasocial issues, can't date, gender issues, trainee debt, etc.


    I think it's fair to ask for improvements to at least half of those things. Idols are dying every year and not by accident or natural causes, this shouldn't be happening.

    Quote from ISaidISaid

    They believe that if people want to go for their dreams then they HAVE to accept everything in the industry. That it’s wrong to want to be idols WITHOUT being okay with all the exploitation that comes with it.

    Idols don't have to accept everything tho, they can simply make music another way or look for a different path, i think the point OP is trying to make is that deciding to sign anyways they are adding to the issue, it's as simple as why would the company change anything when there are still thousands of willing trainees that end up signing to be idols, i also want to make sure i don't completely agree with OP's point of view i am just stating what i think he means with this thread


    If idols/trainees decided not to sign those contracts obviously companies would be forced to change things, but since there are still people signing even thought they know what kind of enviorement and unfairness they are walking towards OP is saying they are part of the problem or that's what i understood

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from TwiceKaren

    Idols don't have to accept everything tho, they can simply make music another way or look for a different path, i think the point OP is trying to make is that deciding to sign anyways they are adding to the issue, it's as simple as why would the company change anything when there are still thousands of willing trainees that end up signing to be idols, i also want to make sure i don't completely agree with OP's point of view i am just stating what i think he means with this thread


    If idols/trainees decided not to sign those contracts obviously companies would be forced to change things, but since there are still people signing even thought they know what kind of enviorement and unfairness they are walking towards OP is saying they are part of the problem or that's what i understood

    And that's exactly what i means


    Yes if idols want to pursue a music career there's tons of options that are open to them


    And if these person just want to end up in the entertainement world, i feel like working to be a tv show host or comedian like hodong etc... Is a far less strict environment and that can still be use as a stepping stone to pursue other goal to have an acting, music, tvshow, model career


    And yes i'm not in anyway saying that mistreatment is okay

    Cuz it's not

    And Companies have a lot of wrongs


    But why would companies change, and what they would gain to change


    If they know that there's millions of people around the world okay to be physically assaulted etc...based on all the testimony they saw and are still okay to sign a contract in a company


    And why would a company change


    When they know that on the other hand, there's also millions of kpop fans who are more than happy to finance this perverted environment that they love to criticize

    By buying the products these companies they advocate against, sell ?



    This system have been in place for 30 years now and nothing change

    So people need to stop acting like it should be the companies that should wake up tomorow and decided to change


    If nothing change in 30 years


    It's because there's still plenty of people out here who are ready to be use as a simple product

    And millions of fans ready to finance the industry that is mistreating and physically assaulting people that they are supposed to love

    Quote from SooYoung

    If they know that there's millions of people around the world okay to be physically assaulted etc...based on all the testimony they saw and are still okay to sign a contract in a company

    While i kind of understand the point you are trying to make i don't think people are ok to be physically assaulted or mistreated, like i agree that idols have knowladge that these things can happen but i also don't think they go into the indsutry expecting these things, it's like saying a female actor goes into acting being ok or expecting to be sexually assaulted since we know there has been cases like that and it's more common than people would like to talk about


    That's why i feel people are having trouble discussing what you want to discuss, because the topic is way more complicated than saying idols know they will be assaulted and ok with it and that's were people are going to disagree with you me included

    This thread is built on very flawed and tone-deaf logic, but I'll keep it simple: You absolutely should not be blaming idols for the shit they go through without even considering who puts them through it.


    Sure, the parent or legal representative chooses to sign the contract...okay. And? Who drafted the contract? Who is the employer? Who is the primary figure setting the basis and clauses of the contract? Who is the main reason that contract is exploitative? Who keeps that exploitative cycle going? Yeah.


    Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that you even considered any of those questions as you typed up this thread, but I implore you to think about it and why that deflates whatever point you tried to make.


    So, to take a page out of selfmate 's book, the real question should NOT be who the victim is but instead who the abuser is and why have(n't) they been held accountable yet.


    On another note,

    Quote from patrik-k

    In general the problem is exagerated. Very few are acctually "abused" and it they are, it's often the minor companies that have the problems. Yes, the trainee days can be tough and it can be stressful to be an Idol, but thats the case in all worklife, even if being a famous person puts a lot of extra stress, but that a life they choose themself. But in general today, very little problems.

    You sound incredibly ignorant, right now.


    Just shut up.

    Quote from TwiceKaren

    Idols don't have to accept everything tho, they can simply make music another way or look for a different path, i think the point OP is trying to make is that deciding to sign anyways they are adding to the issue, it's as simple as why would the company change anything when there are still thousands of willing trainees that end up signing to be idols, i also want to make sure i don't completely agree with OP's point of view i am just stating what i think he means with this thread


    If idols/trainees decided not to sign those contracts obviously companies would be forced to change things, but since there are still people signing even thought they know what kind of enviorement and unfairness they are walking towards OP is saying they are part of the problem or that's what i understood

    “They can simply make music another way” then they are not idols any more are they 💀


    What sort of a response even is this 💀💀

    No I don’t want to just make music I want to be an idol and I don’t want to be exploited just because of that.


    This is really not even a hard concept to grasp 😭😭😭

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from ISaidISaid

    No I don’t want to just make music I want to be an idol and I don’t want to be exploited just because of that.


    This is really not even a hard concept to grasp 😭😭😭

    They can just open up a corp and grind up from underground idolhood in that case.

    Quote from Varenka

    They can just open up a corp and grind up from underground idolhood in that case.

    And THAT’s the crux of the issue and that’s what I was saying at first


    Yours and OP’s argument hinges on the idea that you can be exploited as long as you sign a contract aka “agree to be exploited”. Which is fundamentally a flawed way of thinking.

    Just as an example right


    SM wants 10% of CBX profits from their solo work that they produce with their money and promote completely separate from SM


    Then SM plays a contract game where they play with the emotions of CBX and somehow coax them into signing the contract


    OP’s argument is people are stupid so they should pay the price


    But that’s actually quite the bad argument and everyone is worse off by thinking like that. Everyone is susceptible to stupidity that doesn’t mean they deserve to be exploited. It holds true for you as much as idols.


    Instead CBX or the industry can fight for a universal reform where companies can’t force idols that left them to pay for the independent activities.


    There are many such protections in place for many different fields including the idol industry. If it was up to capitalists idols will sign 20 year contracts and never leave 💀


    Reform has always been a part of the law. And the idol industry can do with a lot of reforms.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from ISaidISaid

    Yours and OP’s argument hinges on the idea that you can be exploited as long as you sign a contract aka “agree to be exploited”. Which is fundamentally a flawed way of thinking.

    Quote where I made that argument really quickly.

  • AllKill VIP
    Quote from ISaidISaid

    That’s the argument you are making with your response regardless of whether you type those words THATS THE POINT lol.

    Saying that there are other ways to idolhood that substantially reduce exploitation chances is not the same thing as saying that you're allowed to be exploited :meme-what:

    Quote from Varenka

    Saying that there are other ways to idolhood that substantially reduce exploitation chances is not the same thing as saying that you're allowed to be exploited :meme-what:

    It actually is.


    If exploitation can happen in one company it can happen in ANY company. So we need industry wide standards to make sure NO company can do certain things. The liability should not just be on the idols too keep looking till they find the perfect contract. Or work with a million lawyers to draft up the perfect contract.


    You should not be exploited. Period.

  • This thread contains 10 more posts that have been hidden for guests, please register yourself or login to continue reading.

Participate now!

Don’t have an account yet? Register yourself now and be a part of our community!

Register Yourself Login