Is H2H the most basic girl group to ever come out of SM?

Quote from Tatiana1820

no bro i'm not joking. i followed sm ggs very closely since snsd and i don't think im exagerating.

winter was always charming and cute. even during the period when she had to adjust to the girl crush concept (because she wasn't used to it, and their concept change was very sudden).

but i find jiwoo 'boring' even off the stage. you know what, she is a rookie, and pretty young so she has time to improve. but i still don't know if she can sing or not tho... maybe you can tell me more about it.

i just feel like this is the most underwhelming sm gg ever. i remember the insane hype aespa had at their debut...

for rv, they were critisied because there was a lot of stuff going on with fx and snsd at that time and people felt that rv was debuted too suddenly. anyway.

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I’m not saying your wrong it’s your opinion I just said I never thought I’ll see the day where people use what they dragged aespa for almost half their career to now praise them in comparison to the new gg

I’m sure in 5-10 years time it’ll be the same for sm ngg and H2H

Quote from foreveraespaaa

Technically none of SM gg have done well at debut apart from SES ITNW became iconic later into GG career but it wasn’t a smash hit at debut!

So yes, none of their gg debuted with hits at their debut era usually after their 1st or 2nd comeback do they gain public interest!

I’m actually surprised H2H are steadily rising and Knetz are liking them already! If you compare this to aespa debut Knetz didn’t come around until Next Level! Aespa already had BM and Forever by then and were still being hated/labelled SM’s first flop gg!

Remember Black Mamba getting mass downvotes and called underwhelming and nugu at least H2H are charting and Knetz actually like their music at debut

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They may not have been "smash hits," but their debuts still did fine and created enough noise to carry them forward. Hardly anyone ever has a big debut. I still think there's a difference between failing to garner a ton of attention from the GP initially and having people aware of you but simply uninterested. I'm seeing more of the latter with H2H.

Quote from foreveraespaaa

Never thought I’ll see the day! People are praising Winter’s stage presence as the standard

For the longest time aespa was dragged for their SP Winter got it the worse it was very bad from debut to at least Savage/Girls era! Glad people are noticing how much aespa’s improved!

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And it goes deeper! RV were also dragged for their no stage presence (minus Seulgi) for years! Only when aespa debut did people use them as the new SP standard

It went from Irene has no SP to Irene has more SP than all of aespa . It’s come full circle

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I've never understood the accusation that RV lacks stage presence. I just don't see it, even in their early years. Sure, they weren't seasoned vets from day one, but they were also never comparable to early Aespa. Aespa genuinely lacked any semblance of stage presence and looked like they had graduated from training too soon. Thankfully they've improved significantly since then.

Quote from Popper-of-Ks

I've never understood the accusation that RV lacks stage presence. I just don't see it, even in their early years. Sure, they weren't seasoned vets from day one, but they were also never comparable to early Aespa. Aespa genuinely lacked any semblance of stage presence and looked like they had graduated from training too soon. Thankfully they've improved significantly since then.

I didn’t think any of them lacked SP to begin with! It was just something antis used to hate on!

Aespa’s situation was unique since they debuted during a pandemic with no live audiences as everyone was on lockdown

I’m sure performing 3/4 times to an empty audience gets boring! They did improve once lockdown had lifted and they were able to interact with fans! I think they mentioned it didn’t feel like they had debut because they were doing the same thing predebut (without a crowd) and it finally felt like they debut once they had an audience

Quote from Taemin-Identity

Regarding the TT. It grew on me, but it is still worst SM group debut song, I have ever heard. So this was a big let down.

really? happiness is the worst SM group debut song imo, i listened to it a few times and pretend to forgot that it existed.

Quote from seraphim25

really? happiness is the worst SM group debut song imo, i listened to it a few times and pretend to forgot that it existed.

Happiness verses are bad but pre chorus, chorus and bridge parts are extremely good imo.

Quote from SooYoung

Ok i'm not going to sit here and look at people rewriting history

• People were criticizing red velvet teaser since the first debut they did calling it lazy and cheap because they were standing in front of a simple background, saying the styling they had was bad and the flowers added looking cheap and bad on picture

• We are clearly not going to act like red velvet was praise visually, they were literrally mocked by kpop fans because of their visuals with tons of people saying " they look so much like each other that SM had to dye their hair different color so we can recognize them" or during be natural jokes like " now that they all have black hair i can't recognize any of them"

Only wendy start to gain some hype for her visual and it only once the mv was drop and it was thanks to the " shine on me part"

• Let's not even talk about their music people were saying that SM was trying to create a gg focus on rap because of all the rap part in hapiness and were calling half of the group not very talented besides wendy once again because of the shine on me part who highlight her vocal but that was all

• Their debut MV was critizice and dislike by tons of people for its "psychedelic" aesthetic and looking like a mess and theb got criticize even more because of the whole controversy about some of the part reminding people 9/11

So no you all can't stop acting like red velvet had a good reception at debut to find a good occasion to criticize H2H

you are all acting like they get a good reception cuz most of you were not even following rv since the debut and probably start to get interest in rv when they start to gain momentum with ICC

And now that it's been years because of melancholy you act like rv had a good reception from the start

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This all sounds like someone projecting their own hate to construct a false narrative. Someone is definitely trying to rewrite history here, but it's not me.

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People were criticizing red velvet teaser since the first debut they did calling it lazy and cheap because they were standing in front of a simple background, saying the styling they had was bad and the flowers added looking cheap and bad on picture

People find petty excuses to criticize all sorts of things. What's your point?

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We are clearly not going to act like red velvet was praise visually, they were literrally mocked by kpop fans because of their visuals with tons of people saying " they look so much like each other that SM had to dye their hair different color so we can recognize them" or during be natural jokes like " now that they all have black hair i can't recognize any of them"

What we're not going to do is pretend Red Velvet weren't praised for their visuals from the very beginning, because that would be a big, fat lie. Were there people jokingly commenting that Irene & Seulgi looked alike in their teaser photos? Yes, but that's SM's fault for styling them that way, and it was by no means a common sentiment that continued after that.

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Only wendy start to gain some hype for her visual and it only once the mv was drop and it was thanks to the " shine on me part"

She gained hype for her visual through... her vocal solo? Now you're making no sense whatsoever. People were praising her singing because of that part, as they should.

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Let's not even talk about their music people were saying that SM was trying to create a gg focus on rap because of all the rap part in hapiness and were calling half of the group not very talented besides wendy once again because of the shine on me part who highlight her vocal but that was all

Literally no one was saying any of this.

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Their debut MV was critizice and dislike by tons of people for its "psychedelic" aesthetic and looking like a mess and theb got criticize even more because of the whole controversy about some of the part reminding people 9/11

The reaction to the Happiness MV was not overwhelmingly negative, aside from the controversial content, which got edited out relatively quickly.

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you are all acting like they get a good reception cuz most of you were not even following rv since the debut and probably start to get interest in rv when they start to gain momentum with ICC

And now that it's been years because of melancholy you act like rv had a good reception from the start

I was there. I've been following Kpop since before RV even debuted. This is how I know you're full of it.

I'm not sure what "melancholy" has to do with anything. If you mean't nostalgia, that has nothing to do with it either. I'm not seeing their debut through rose-colored glasses, I think you're seeing it through the lense of your own negative bias. I'm guessing because your own favorite group found themselves in serious turmoil shortly after, and you were afraid SM was replacing them.

they definitely have the least amount of hype out of any SM from recent memory, I mean this is an SM gg we’re talking about! that title alone should carry some weight but unfortunately they’ve been nothing but unremarkable out of the gate

Quote from bagelbaguette

according to the sm stans here, every sm gg was poorly received at debut and this one was arguably better received so i'll take their word for it

Quote from Popper-of-Ks

SNSD were honestly pretty "basic" when they debuted. Perhaps that's what they're going for here. I don't think it will pay off though. Times have changed, and the consumers have very different expectations.

They're lying.

When did SM become known for "craziness?" They've traditionally been one of the more reserved companies.

I was gonna answer when I saw these posts as a K-pop fan who has been around since 2nd gen times - but I see a number of replies by foreveraespaaa and SooYoung , so I guess they already covered most of the counterarguments.

From what I've seen most of the SM groups had a slower start following debut compared with other Big 3 (now Big 4) groups, easy examples are Wonder Girls, 2NE1, Blackpink, Itzy etc compared with SM groups like EXO, SNSD, Red Velvet and such who started slow (compared with other Big 3 groups, not compared with non-Big 3 groups that didn't have the backing and clout that the Big 3 have).

SM groups also had more controversy, scandals and bashing going on around and after their debut compared with other Big 3 groups - SNSD for example had the dubious honor to receive the first and biggest black ocean within the 1st year after their debut, NCT had members like Taeyong being bashed to oblivion even pre-debut for years until finally SM deemed it time to clear up many of the misunderstandings. And RV and Aespa had their own controversies going on.

Looking back, I think it was because for years there were a lot more people who really, intensely hated SM, more so than the number of people who hated YG or JYP, and that agressive dislike spilt over onto the groups that SM debuted (aside from several mistakes SM made).

But that's more in the past now, I guess. From what I see, the more recent SM groups don't have the same bad fortune that previous SM gens suffered with their debut.

Quote from Popper-of-Ks

I've never understood the accusation that RV lacks stage presence.

A lot of fans think stage presence = dancing ability so thats prolly why.

Quote from CaraFIMIE

A lot of fans think stage presence = dancing ability so thats prolly why.

Even then it doesn't make much sense. The entire group aren't amazing dancers, but they still average out pretty high. If anything their choreo is simplistic compared to what most of them are capable of.

Quote from Popper-of-Ks

Even then it doesn't make much sense. The entire group aren't amazing dancers, but they still average out pretty high. If anything their choreo is simplistic compared to what most of them are capable of.

Yeah, I generally don't understand those sorts of arguments but its whatever.

Imo, most SM ggs are actually pretty good dancers. Its just that SM artists are generally vocal-oriented so they would stick to less complex choreos to improve the live experience. But ofc thats useless now that they arent even allowed to sing live very often.

Quote from FoReveries

SM groups also had more controversy, scandals and bashing going on around and after their debut compared with other Big 3 groups - SNSD for example had the dubious honor to receive the first and biggest black ocean within the 1st year after their debut,

Snsd were targeted brutally because of the black ocean situation! How they managed to turn it around is crazy work so proud of them

Quote from Popper-of-Ks

Even then it doesn't make much sense. The entire group aren't amazing dancers, but they still average out pretty high. If anything their choreo is simplistic compared to what most of them are capable of.

Quote from CaraFIMIE

Yeah, I generally don't understand those sorts of arguments but its whatever.

Imo, most SM ggs are actually pretty good dancers. Its just that SM artists are generally vocal-oriented so they would stick to less complex choreos to improve the live experience. But ofc thats useless now that they arent even allowed to sing live very often.

I don't think there's that much to understand about it, it's just one of those (fake news) narratives that a number of K-pop fans love to repeat and parrot in circle jerk echo chambers, in the hopes that their claims and narratives will make the majority of K-pop fans believe and propagate them without criticism or deeper investigation => hey, if it works in politics and mainstream media propaganda, then why not in K-pop, right?

It's like those other K-pop narratives of the past: like how massive numbers of netizens and K-pop fans believed and parroted how SM groups like SNSD, Super Junior and other SM groups were 'talentless visuals' - until vocal technique analysis became popular and K-pop fans as a group became slowly aware that SM vocals and vocalists were actually impressive, let alone their other talents.

Or how T-ARA were bullies (they weren't).

Or how this or that idol visual was actually ugly and had undergone PS based on endlessly showing 1 specific unflattering teen picture as 'proof' - while purposely ignoring all those idols' other child and teen pictures that showed they were already very pretty as a child and highschool kid far before debut.

As for 'stage presence', the term is as vague and subjective as vocal color and the definition of 'it girl', people can make of it whatever they like and prefer. So if they dislike a group's performance (or group), of course they can claim that group lacks 'stage presence'.

Although in RV's case, I think it's obvious a number of K-pop fans (who were fans of other top gg's or who hated SM) parroted the claim that RV had no stage presence bc they wanted to shade RV.