Do we have any play listing at all??

    Quote from Dreamer95

    Yeah, like the NJ and Ive sunbaenim, right?

    NJ/Ive debut with the less playlisting then Twice and don’t release on a Friday at 1pm for western charting purposes. Despite this, both have higher peaks than Twice before playlisting even kicks in for them. :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    TTT playlist reach day 1 was 19.5m and day 2 40m.


    Ditto’s on day 1 was 9m and on its second day 10m.


    Ditto on its second day which was its first full day of tracking jumped up to 19th on global Spotify with 3.3m streams. Twice’s peak streams was its debut day with 1.8m streams, nearly half of New Jeans despite nearly 4 times the playlisting.


    But yes, tell me more about how Twice’s music is initially as or more popular than NewJeans or even Ive therefore should get similar playlisting :pepe-narrow-eyes:

    Not a single truth has been found in this essay

    Quote from Armedryu

    No, some companies have shit marketing departments that's why

    I just showed you the massive numbers NewJeans pull without even getting near the playlisting Twice do on debut. Nearly double their streams. Some companies Just put out better songs :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    The demand for NewJeans and to a smaller extent Ive is clear and only behind BP for girl groups.

    If they achieve a high stream rate of 2m-3m per day on Spotify, they will be added to many playlists. Let's wait for MLSR debut streams.

    Quote from Beesknees

    I just showed you the massive numbers NewJeans pull without even getting near the playlisting Twice do on debut. Nearly double their streams. Some companies Just put out better songs :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    The demand for NewJeans and to a smaller extent Ive is clear and only behind BP for girl groups.

    So are you going to pretend I say bad things about New Jeans and not how shit your takes are on "only popular groups can have their songs on playlist"

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    Quote from Armedryu

    So are you going to pretend I say bad things about New Jeans and not how shit your takes are on "only popular groups can have their songs on playlist"

    You’re misunderstanding a very simple concept. Unless you come from a big label with influence, which JYPE aren’t, you need a certain level of success to either justify the spend or have your streams high enough that it can’t be ignored through demand.


    Can you pay for playlists? Yes. Is there any evidence that even with playlisting Twice’s songs have taken off? No. Therefore as a business would you pay for Twice to get on the biggest playlists? No. Do their songs get enough general support to the extent they can’t be ignored? No :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    Twice’s new release had 18.4m playlist reach on day 1, Itzy’s English pre-release had 1.8m. They have clearly been testing the water with Twice’s playlisting but it currently hasn’t been bearing fruit ;judgingpepe:

    Quote from Beesknees

    You’re misunderstanding a very simple concept. Unless you come from a big label with influence, which JYPE aren’t, you need a certain level of success to either justify the spend or have your streams high enough that it can’t be ignored through demand.


    Can you pay for playlists? Yes. Is there any evidence that even with playlisting Twice’s songs have taken off? No. Therefore as a business would you pay for Twice to get on the biggest playlists? No. Do their songs get enough general support to the extent they can’t be ignored? No :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    Twice’s new release had 18.4m playlist reach on day 1, Itzy’s English pre-release had 1.8m. They have clearly been testing the water with Twice’s playlisting but it currently hasn’t been bearing fruit ;judgingpepe:

    I am not going to read all of that, I get into kpop for visuals

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    ThinkAbouTzu, Tuwuice:pleading::pleading::pleading:

    Quote from Beesknees

    And I can’t tell tell if you’re too inept to look up numbers or incapable of understanding them :pepe-narrow-eyes:

    My dude, if I just typed a number instead of a letter in this reply, you wouldn't notice it. Your brain capacity wouldn't allow you to. I've heard a lot of ridiculous nonsense on this forum and I've argued a lot. However the reason why I chose initially not to engage in this debate is because there isn't even a merit to whatever you're saying.


    You're referring to Songstats, a 3rd party platfrom and you're using that one number of overall playlist reach, which is the sum of the followers each of those playlists have, to make your point. You wanna talk about real numbers, tell me this:


    1. How many people actually stream those playlists, not just follow to them?


    2. What is the stream boost each of those playlists can provide on average to a newly added song?


    3. And more importantly, how what percentage of that "playlist reach" already follows Twice and NJ?


    If you bothered to check bottom right corner of that 3rd party app that you're so "professionally" using for your comparison, you'd see what kind of playlists are these artists on. The sheer amount of Twice playlists are Kpop playlists, there is absolutely 0 benefit these playlists can provide to artists like Twice, BTS, Blackpink because these are the groups that are actually carrying those playlists with their bigger follower base and helping them grow, while smaller groups are benefitting from them.


    As for NJ they are not only benefitting from the Kpop playlists (yet) with their tiny 1.5 million followers, they are also on playlists such as Hot Hits.


    Now I already answered question #3 for you, feel free to address the first two with your deep insight. But if you can't, then be silenced.

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    This is the reply of someone that has no idea how Spotify statistics work :pepe-cross:


    How are you finding out from anywhere how much someone streams a playlist? Naturally, likes equals reach as when you like a Spotify playlist you automatically follow it. That is the main statistic used for judging level of playlisting and the most popular playlists are naturally the ones with the most likes/followers. Do you think something other than TTH is the most streamed playlist? Honestly what is the logic there, you don’t think the most followed playlists are the most streamed lmao


    Your point 3 is irrelevant. If NewJeans are pulling bigger streams than Twice with less followers and less playlisting what does that tell you exactly ;judgingpepe: You’re trying to make NJ a group with some artificial push but nothing indicates that. Kpop playlists do benefit Twice because they are no longer the top dog in which everyone anticipates their release or even knows they are releasing. Do you think the people listening to NJ aren’t kpop fans? That’s literally most of their listening base. :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    NJ were on the biggest playlists a few weeks after Ditto released and was already pulling insane numbers for a kpop group, that is literally a proven fact. Twice were on more playlists than NJ from release and got nowhere near their numbers. That is also a fact. Even their new release is more than a million off :drinktears:

    Quote from Beesknees

    How are you finding out from anywhere how much someone streams a playlist? Naturally, likes equals reach as when you like a Spotify playlist you automatically follow it. That is the main statistic used for judging level of playlisting and the most popular playlists are naturally the ones with the most likes/followers. Do you think something other than TTH is the most streamed playlist? Honestly what is the logic there, you don’t think the most followed playlists are the most streamed lmao

    Lmfao what? The perfect example to refute your nonsense here would be SM's Youtube channel. They have 30 million subscribers, and Got The Beat has like 5 million views in 6 days. The older the playlist is, the more likely that more than half of the followers ain't even active anymore. Let me even give you a non Kpop example. Pewdiedie has 111 million subs, yet his average views right now are 2-3 million, less than some accounts with 10 times less subs. So yes, the followers don't mean shit. If Pewdiedie made a video about Twice you'd be saying they have 111 million reach, but in fact the actual reach would be couple of millions.

    Quote from Beesknees

    If NewJeans are pulling bigger streams than Twice with less followers and less playlisting what does that tell you exactly ;judgingpepe:

    *More playlisting


    Quote from Beesknees

    You’re trying to make NJ a group with some artificial push but nothing indicates that.

    Lmfao dude, NewJeans are epitome of artificial push. It ain't even a secret.


    Quote from Beesknees

    Kpop playlists do benefit Twice because they are no longer the top dog in which everyone anticipates their release or even knows they are releasing. Do you think the people listening to NJ aren’t kpop fans? That’s literally most of their listening base. :pepe-narrow-eyes:

    Now this is just a hater take that further ruins your credibility and highlights your ill intention.


    Quote from Beesknees

    NJ were on the biggest playlists a few weeks after Ditto released and was already pulling insane numbers for a kpop group, that is literally a proven fact. Twice were on more playlists than NJ from release and got nowhere near their numbers. That is also a fact. Even their new release is more than a million off :drinktears:

    You're just paraphrasing something you've repeated 3 times already, this doesn't contain anything new. We already got that you believe that Twice had bigger reach, I already refuted it. Repeating it won't make it true.

    So on what basis are you concluding the playlists Twice are getting on with more followers than on release are old and inactive, whilst NewJeans songs on debut are getting put on kpop lists which are more “active”? Your thinking has zero weight behind it when the only backing is because you said so ;judgingpepe:


    They don’t have more playlisting in the first few days in which NewJeans streams are still way higher. NewJeans get put on top 50 playlists for example which have good reach, because they hit the top 50 in major music countries with limited playlists in the first place so it’s a knock-on effect that gets seen later


    What I’m saying isn’t wrong, even Twice fans complain that their songs don’t get promo and people don’t know when they’re releasing. Yet you think there is no incremental benefit to Twice getting put on kpop playlists, as if it’s not kpop fans that pushed NewJeans to the insane numbers they have :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    You refuted with zero sources and your opinion yet think you’ve done something here :pepe-cross: We’ll just take your word for it that the initial playlisting Twice get are for old and inactive playlists whilst NewJeans get on all the active ones with less followers. That must be the reason. :pepe-cringe:

    Quote from Beesknees

    So on what basis are you concluding the playlists Twice are getting on with more followers than on release are old and inactive, whilst NewJeans songs on debut are getting put on kpop lists which are more “active”? Your thinking has zero weight behind it when the only backing is because you said so ;judgingpepe:

    I never said or "concluded" anything. You're the one making factual claims like "Twice has bigger reach", based on a data that you can't analyze and I am merely challenging them. Ready provide insight into your "Playlist Reach" yet?

    Quote from Beesknees

    They don’t have more playlisting in the first few days in which NewJeans streams are still way higher. NewJeans get put on top 50 playlists for example which have good reach, because they hit the top 50 in major music countries with limited playlists in the first place so it’s a knock-on effect that gets seen later

    Again, referencing a 3rd party website and their weird definition of "Playlist Reach". We already went through it.


    Quote from Beesknees

    What I’m saying isn’t wrong, even Twice fans complain that their songs don’t get promo and people don’t know when they’re releasing. Yet you think there is no incremental benefit to Twice getting put on kpop playlists, as if it’s not kpop fans that pushed NewJeans to the insane numbers they have :pepe-narrow-eyes:

    Again, where are you stats proving that it is the Kpop playlists that play the huge role in streaming boost? So far I've never witnessed major impact from these playlists on any song. As a Dreamcatcher stan I've been following their data too and since they are a smaller group and have less followers and streams than others, Kpop On with its claimed 4 million reach should've been a huge boost for them, right? Well....not really....

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    Wow, a 4.5 million huge playlist which Twice is so lucky to be playlisted on boosted Dreamcatcher with 45k new listeners, 1/100 of of the so called reach, so impressive :pepe-magnify:



    Quote from Beesknees

    You refuted with zero sources and your opinion yet think you’ve done something here :pepe-cross:

    I am not here to "provide sources", I am here to challenge yours. And so far you've failed to prove the legitimacy of your 3rd party data.

    Quote from Beesknees

    We’ll just take your word for it that the initial playlisting Twice get are for old and inactive playlists whilst NewJeans get on all the active ones with less followers.

    First of all, I never made such a definitive claim, I merely stated that it is a posibillity and we can only know the difference with actual breakdown of your so called "Playlist Reach", which you're unable to provide. So it is literally my word vs your word. You didn't provide any credible insight.

    Because the commonly used and accepted metric for Spotify playlist reach is the number of followers that a playlist has. Just like how getting on TTH has pushed their reach to past 100m on the 3rd party website and it has people’s knickers in a twist. You’re not disputing a 3rd party website as you keep trying to say, you’re disputing the commonly used measure for reach. How did you expect people to answer your thread if not through the mention of playlist reach :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    Twice early on in their release have bigger reach, unless you think there’s a lack of completeness of the data at which point there’s nothing to say Twice aren’t also understated.


    Your point would insinuate NewJeans are on release getting added to some either unknown playlist by the website that’s driving their streams (which you can’t prove as it’s most definitely not true) or the playlists they get added to on release (which are the same kpop ones Twice get added to) are only effective for them for whatever reason.


    Do you know why the latter would be true?Because a song on a playlist doesn’t mean people won’t skip it or that they’ll keep replaying it, adding to their own playlist. The song still needs to resonate which is where groups like Dreamcatcher and Twice will fall down on :pepe-narrow-eyes:


    TTH has near 33m followers, not all those artists are getting millions of new listeners within a few days of getting on it. You need to be consistently on it, high up on it and your songs needs to keep getting listens ;judgingpepe:

    I know nothing about playlists but I love learning new things so thanks explaining it, even if it was due to an argument.


    I actually checked out that playlist thanks to you and the names made me choke and realise why everyone is claiming Hybe paid for it but unless they have done the same for LSF, TXT, EN-, Seventeen and BTS (incl their solo's), I don't see the logic unless they want to argue/admit they think that Hybe values and trusts a 5 month old group more than all the above and think they have the fandom, music and reach to capitalise on being on said playlist more than the above which is an ....interesting perspective.


    Especially considering if they think/know they can do it for NWJN's with ditto and its apparently so easy to pay to get a song charting worldwide and even entering the notoriously hard to enter billboard and UK charts, get new records for PAK's, break insane streaming records and do it all with the first CB, why didn't they do the same for all the above? and more to the point, LSF just had a CB and they didn't do it for them, TXT and 17's BSS are having CB's soon along with Jimin's debut so are they gonna do it for them to? and if not, does this mean they think Hybe values NWJN's more than TXT, Jimin and Seventeen? or are they going to put it down to Ador paying for it, and if so somehow Hybe won't ask Ador for that connection that can make them so much money? I don't buy it.

    Quote from Beesknees

    Because the commonly used and accepted metric for Spotify playlist reach is the number of followers that a playlist has. Just like how getting on TTH has pushed their reach to past 100m on the 3rd party website and it has people’s knickers in a twist. You’re not disputing a 3rd party website as you keep trying to say, you’re disputing the commonly used measure for reach. How did you expect people to answer your thread if not through the mention of playlist reach :pepe-narrow-eyes:

    "Commonly used" is not a differential you think it is. Brand Reputation is also commonly used, however as practice shows it is nothing but BS. Again, thanks for confirming that they just summing the follower count of each playlist, without taking into account and subtracting the concurrent or repeating followers.

    Quote from Beesknees

    Your point would insinuate NewJeans are on release getting added to some either unknown playlist by the website that’s driving their streams (which you can’t prove as it’s most definitely not true) or the playlists they get added to on release (which are the same kpop ones Twice get added to) are only effective for them for whatever reason.

    Dude, they've been added to bunch of non Kpop playlists. They are pushing 20 million MLs, the only groups who were previously able to do that were also the groups that were added to non Kpop playlists, interestingly. While non of the groups who stay in Kpop playlists only are able to crack even 10 million. You're desperately trying to avoid seeing the obvious, it is getting funny at this point.

    Quote from Beesknees

    Do you know why the latter would be true?Because a song on a playlist doesn’t mean people won’t skip it or that they’ll keep replaying it, adding to their own playlist. The song still needs to resonate which is where groups like Dreamcatcher and Twice will fall down on :pepe-narrow-eyes:

    Dude, nobody ever argued about that, like stop talking to a wall and winning an imaginary debate, instead talk to me and address my points.

    Quote from Beesknees

    TTH has near 33m followers, not all those artists are getting millions of new listeners within a few days of getting on it. You need to be consistently on it, high up on it and your songs needs to keep getting listens ;judgingpepe:

    Now imagine how hard is it for artists who aren't even on that playlists. Dude, you are this close from finally getting it.

    Quote from onwards

    Especially considering if they think/know they can do it for NWJN's with ditto and its apparently so easy to pay to get a song charting worldwide and even entering the notoriously hard to enter billboard and UK charts, get new records for PAK's, break insane streaming records and do it all with the first CB, why didn't they do the same for all the above?

    Because companies don't treat their artists the same? You might as well ask why doesn't Fromis_9 get the same MV budget and the same level of push that NJ gets. Hybe made it clear NJ is their top priority and top contender to be their next BTS. Just look at all those articles.

    Quote from Dreamer95

    "Commonly used" is not a differential you think it is. Brand Reputation is also commonly used, however as practice shows it is nothing but BS. Again, thanks for confirming that they just summing the follower count of each playlist, without taking into account and subtracting the concurrent or repeating followers.

    Dude, they've been added to bunch of non Kpop playlists. They are pushing 20 million MLs, the only groups who were previously able to do that were also the groups that were added to non Kpop playlists, interestingly. While non of the groups who stay in Kpop playlists only are able to crack even 10 million. You're desperately trying to avoid seeing the obvious, it is getting funny at this point.

    Dude, nobody ever argued about that, like stop talking to a wall and winning an imaginary debate, instead talk to me and address my points.

    Now imagine how hard is it for artists who aren't even on that playlists. Dude, you are this close from finally getting it.

    Again, you’ve missed the point. The fact that it’s a constant measure across Twice and NJ means you believe NewJeans on release (the key part of the point being made) are on playlists with much less followers than Twice yet get nearly double their streams because their playlists are more active with nothing to back that up.


    The rest of your post also ignores this fairly obvious point that was being made. ;judgingpepe:


    NewJeans hit top 20 on Spotify Global on their first full day of tracking, they were not on TTH or any of those big playlists at that point. They hit those massive numbers without big playlisting. That initial success has a knock-on effect and then puts them onto a bunch more playlists such as Top 50 Hits for multiple countries which further increases their reach. TTH is the cherry on top they got put on weeks after Ditto came out. They actually hit top 10 on Spotify Global before being put on TTH.


    NewJeans getting put on the big playlists is not surprising when their songs were doing so well.


    You’re honestly not close to getting it. :pepe-narrow-eyes:

    Can understand Ditto being added to TTH cuz it really did well even initially but what do you think about Attention being added to TTH? Cmiiw but with Attention, don’t think they got that much streams to be added to TTH.

    Quote from lanarene

    Can understand Ditto being added to TTH cuz it really did well even initially but what do you think about Attention being added to TTH? Cmiiw but with Attention, don’t think they got that much streams to be added to TTH.

    Attention was a push, but what it clearly shows is how playlisting is not the be all end all. Hybe Boy is outperforming it in nearly every metric as people prefer the song and their monthly listeners have exploded this time around as people resonate with Ditto.

    Quote from lanarene

    Can understand Ditto being added to TTH cuz it really did well even initially but what do you think about Attention being added to TTH? Cmiiw but with Attention, don’t think they got that much streams to be added to TTH.

    Even more evidence that playlisting alone can't do jack. Hype boy oblitares attention even without playlisting.

    Quote from Beesknees

    Again, you’ve missed the point. The fact that it’s a constant measure across Twice and NJ means you believe NewJeans on release (the key part of the point being made) are on playlists with much less followers than Twice yet get nearly double their streams because their playlists are more active with nothing to back that up.


    The rest of your post also ignores this fairly obvious point that was being made. ;judgingpepe:

    No, that's not the fucking "key part" of my point and that's not even close to what I said. Yes, I did briefly say that playlists like K On are more beneficial for NJ than Twice, because obviously the big share of any Kpop playlist userbase is already familiar with Twice. However I never attributed NJ streaming numbers to Kpop playlists, instead my entire point from the beginning is about the non Kpop playlists that boost NJ's audience. That's literally the bread and butter of my argument, that's what I keep repeating on every occasion, are you fucking completely r slured cause I have no other explanation for you still not getting it.


    Again, for the "Special" ones:


    1) Kpop playlists are completely useless for Twice, anyone on that playlist is already familiar with Twice

    2) Kpop playlists are not completely useless for NJ since they are rookies, however their impact is not the biggest one

    3) The western oriented playlists, specifically one with 30 million users are the source of the biggest boost for NJ (and literally anyone else) and Twice would benefit from that boost as well


    Honestly, if you still act like a 4 years old with mental issues after I chewed it all from you, I am not gonna bother with you anymore.


    Quote from Beesknees

    NewJeans hit top 20 on Spotify Global on their first full day of tracking, they were not on TTH or any of those big playlists at that point. They hit those massive numbers without big playlisting. That initial success has a knock-on effect and then puts them onto a bunch more playlists such as Top 50 Hits for multiple countries which further increases their reach. TTH is the cherry on top they got put on weeks after Ditto came out. They actually hit top 10 on Spotify Global before being put on TTH.

    Yet another point that refers to the specific data, the legitimacy of which is being brought into question. Dude, have you ever participated in a debate? Like you can't refer to the same data that I am question without first addressing the questions about the same data. There 100% was playlisting and payola involved in that very first day which you seem to believe is 100% organic. You can't possibly be that level of delulu to be claiming that NJ outdid everyone but BTS cause they are just that huge. Like be real.

    Christ on a bike :pepe-cross:

    I never said you or anyone attributed their streams to kpop playlists. My point was your argument literally, like literally holds no weight because the imaginary playlists NewJeans are supposedly on at debut you haven’t been able to prove…at all.


    What are these non-kpop playlist they’re on at release that gets them the streams that no-one else seems to know about, including 3rd party websites set up for that sole reason? ;judgingpepe:


    Your point 3 makes no sense in this argument when people are aware of the largest playlists so would know if NewJeans were on them on release, what are you possibly missing here? Yes TTH helps them and would help Twice, but they were already pulling top 20 global streams before Ditto was on it and that is a huge knock-on effect to playlisting.


    They didn’t outdo everyone but BTS. BTS and BP get 7-8m streams on debut for songs, NewJeans first full day was what, 3.2m? So less than half. Stray Kids and Twice can hit 2m. So why is the most talked about new kpop group in years hitting 3m so outrageous for you that there’s invisible payola going on to inflate streams :pepewhat:

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