I need to rant about some idiot !

Here's my take.

The whole kpop debt thing is messed up. When youre under 18, you simply don't know anything about responsibility, finances, consequences, etc. Arguably, most 18 year old don't even know.

When you're not an adult, the company has the responsibility of protecting them physically, mentally, and financially. Just like how a lot of lawyers you don't pay unless you actually win the case, I feel this should be the case with kpop companies taking on trainees, if the group flops, it's not just because of the trainees, it's also because of the company and their team, producers, advertising, they shouldn't have to be responsible for it any debt.

Quote from fdblink

Here's my take.

The whole kpop debt thing is messed up. When youre under 18, you simply don't know anything about responsibility, finances, consequences, etc. Arguably, most 18 year old don't even know.

When you're not an adult, the company has the responsibility of protecting them physically, mentally, and financially. Just like how a lot of lawyers you don't pay unless you actually win the case, I feel this should be the case with kpop companies taking on trainees, if the group flops, it's not just because of the trainees, it's also because of the company and their team, producers, advertising, they shouldn't have to be responsible for it any debt.

for once I would disagree with you my friend

it's the parents who should bear the majority of responsibility for their own children and not the company

I agree that there should be more transparency in terms of the debt like roughly how much it is and the contract should prescribe methods of repayment/cancellation/cost etc etc and the transparency aspect is something that I would strongly advocate for but someone has to be responsible for the costs of the housing/training/food/utilities etc etc

the way I think of it is like elite sports or something that one can attend - someone has to bear the costs and it's certainly not the sports training facility (save for scholarships and those things)

a kpop training contract cannot be signed by a minor without their parents approval right? like other contracts with minors???

Quote from selfmate

for once I would disagree with you my friend

it's the parents who should bear the majority of responsibility for their own children and not the company

I agree that there should be more transparency in terms of the debt like roughly how much it is and the contract should prescribe methods of repayment/cancellation/cost etc etc and the transparency aspect is something that I would strongly advocate for but someone has to be responsible for the costs of the housing/training/food/utilities etc etc

the way I think of it is like elite sports or something that one can attend - someone has to bear the costs and it's certainly not the sports training facility (save for scholarships and those things)

a kpop training contract cannot be signed by a minor without their parents approval right? like other contracts with minors???

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Well, we usually disagree on stuff

I can see your point and I think it also comes down to how much debt and the cost of training is and whether there is predatory pricing, especially because this isn't like an impulse purchase, you have to dedicate years of your childs life into something that may not work out. Kpop is such a huge business in S.Korea that it's considered a future option for some. I think I would compare this to the student debt crisis we have in America. Cost of education keeps rising but it is commonly believed that you need a college education to be successful but students will take on the debt because they may see this as the only option.

I'm hoping there isn't a lot of false promises from smaller companies. I hear stories of 500k USD in trainee debt. Biden cancelled billions in student debt from illegitimate schools and false promises and I hope that isn't the case here because realistically, none of the big 4 companies's trainees have to worry about debt, they're pretty much guaranteed with success which means we are talking about nugu companies when it comes to the topic of trainee debt.

Quote from fdblink

Well, we usually disagree on stuff

I can see your point and I think it also comes down to how much debt and the cost of training is and whether there is predatory pricing, especially because this isn't like an impulse purchase, you have to dedicate years of your childs life into something that may not work out. Kpop is such a huge business in S.Korea that it's considered a future option for some. I think I would compare this to the student debt crisis we have in America. Cost of education keeps rising but it is commonly believed that you need a college education to be successful but students will take on the debt because they may see this as the only option.

I'm hoping there isn't a lot of false promises from smaller companies. I hear stories of 500k USD in trainee debt. Biden cancelled billions in student debt from illegitimate schools and false promises and I hope that isn't the case here because realistically, none of the big 4 companies's trainees have to worry about debt, they're pretty much guaranteed with success which means we are talking about nugu companies when it comes to the topic of trainee debt.

musically we just about differ in everything but other things not so much lol

paragraph 1: i completely agree which is why transparency is very important and making an informed decision about whether one wants to get into kpop or not...even a look training 5 out 7 days will cost xyz roughly so assuming a min of 2-3 years training that will add up to abc costs - I think that's a realistic way of being transparent and each month/quarter/semiannually whatever a kpop company should furnish up to date debt levels both as a trainee and if the trainee debuts

like reading about chuu and BBC not furnishing her statements or her incoming is ridiculous on the part of the company

they do it to deliberately screw over the idol

paragraph 2 which is why transparency should be the default status - one should know what one is getting into and at each step of the way big4/medium sized or nugu...

Quote from selfmate

musically we just about differ in everything but other things not so much lol

paragraph 1: i completely agree which is why transparency is very important and making an informed decision about whether one wants to get into kpop or not...even a look training 5 out 7 days will cost xyz roughly so assuming a min of 2-3 years training that will add up to abc costs - I think that's a realistic way of being transparent and each month/quarter/semiannually whatever a kpop company should furnish up to date debt levels both as a trainee and if the trainee debuts

like reading about chuu and BBC not furnishing her statements or her incoming is ridiculous on the part of the company

they do it to deliberately screw over the idol

paragraph 2 which is why transparency should be the default status - one should know what one is getting into and at each step of the way big4/medium sized or nugu...

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I agree on transparency, the parents need all the information possible to be able to make informed decisions.

But I still think companies still have some level of responsibility. Just like a universities should have the professor and staff who are qualified in providing you the best education possible to maximize your chance of success afterwards, I think music companies should also do everything they can to make sure you succeed, I'm seeing too many nugu groups who have one comeback and never comeback again, even groups who disband shortly after debuting and you never hear from them again.

At least with school education, even with a really crappy school, you're guaranteed a degree after, while it doesn't guarantee you a job (tho some schools promise that) your degree still serves as some sort of qualification or statement to others that you at the very least have this amount of knowledge on the field you studied in. But with trainees, you're training in one company is almost useless in another so if it doesn't work out for you, you're kinda screwed and in debt.

I suppose it'll just come down to the details and agreement in their contract but I'm a firm believer on a contingency clause. In the end, the victim here are the trainees because the parent's made their decision for them and the debt falls on to the trainee after.

Frankly, I don't like the idea of 10-16 year olds being put into debt by these companies. Also, this debt is often unreasonable and the calculation lacks transparency.

I am not sure what would be a better way but I would look at option to pay as they go either through a parent or trainees taking up part-time jobs. Or an agreement that has higher percentage from profit for the company in the initial years while still paying idols a livable wage and once the debt is paid, the percentage drops to a reasonable rate. Also, there should be complete transparency about how the debt amount was calculated and absolutely no repayment requirement if the group fails due to no fault of the members.

Quote from fdblink

I agree on transparency, the parents need all the information possible to be able to make informed decisions.

But I still think companies still have some level of responsibility. Just like a universities should have the professor and staff who are qualified in providing you the best education possible to maximize your chance of success afterwards, I think music companies should also do everything they can to make sure you succeed, I'm seeing too many nugu groups who have one comeback and never comeback again, even groups who disband shortly after debuting and you never hear from them again.

At least with school education, even with a really crappy school, you're guaranteed a degree after, while it doesn't guarantee you a job (tho some schools promise that) your degree still serves as some sort of qualification or statement to others that you at the very least have this amount of knowledge on the field you studied in. But with trainees, you're training in one company is almost useless in another so if it doesn't work out for you, you're kinda screwed and in debt.

I suppose it'll just come down to the details and agreement in their contract but I'm a firm believer on a contingency clause. In the end, the victim here are the trainees because the parent's made their decision for them and the debt falls on to the trainee after.

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paragraph 2 - again i would say document it like a business plan - getting back to transparency and whatnot...sure no one knows how a group will turn out successful/viral/one member/no members etc etc but a rough goal as to what the company has for their idols and like you mention a contingency plan like if after 3/4/5 etc cb the group hasn't succeeded then there's a plan to disband and who bares the costs etc etc

paragraph 3 - that's the risk right? same as most other non-educational activities??? like studying for ballet or a sport or even a musical instrument....like if doesn't work out and you don't get a job as a (for example) piano player then that's your skill set no? so in this case I would say it's a risk reward scenario that if you want to chase your dreams of being a kpop artist one has to bear the consequences of failure...monetary or otherwise

paragraph 4 - I wonder if there ever has been an idol who has come out and said I really didn't want to do this in the beginning but I was pressured into it by my parents (or something like that) - most of the times it's the idols themselves who want to be an idol no? but then again I'm sure that there's lots of trainees who didn't debut who we never hear from...

Quote from Noemi

Frankly, I don't like the idea of 10-16 year olds being put into debt by these companies. Also, this debt is often unreasonable and the calculation lacks transparency.

I am not sure what would be a better way but I would look at option to pay as they go either through a parent or trainees taking up part-time jobs. Or an agreement that has higher percentage from profit for the company in the initial years while still paying idols a livable wage and once the debt is paid, the percentage drops to a reasonable rate. Also, there should be complete transparency about how the debt amount was calculated and absolutely no repayment requirement if the group fails due to no fault of the members.

I would agree 100% on the transparency aspect my friend

the debt part well like i said above

someone has to bear the risk and costs - nothing is free in this world...

Quote from selfmate

I would agree 100% on the transparency aspect my friend

the debt part well like i said above

someone has to bear the risk and costs - nothing is free in this world...

Sure but again, if the debut is 100% controlled by the company including how you look, how you behave, your debut song and dance etc., the risk should be borne by the company.

Quote from Noemi

Sure but again, if the debut is 100% controlled by the company including how you look, how you behave, your debut song and dance etc., the risk should be borne by the company.

interesting....those with the means and access to the production bear the risk of the consequences...fair point

so what risk do the idols bear then?

Tbh , becoming a kpop idol is a big risk for kids and parents.....

that's why i said , think twice before becoming a k-idol

In second gen there were a lot of stories about idols literally homeless as trainees due to debt/unaccepting parents and those were the ones who succeeded in the end. I'm sure there are 10x more that you never hear about not from large companies that will struggle for the rest of their lives to make it out of that debt. I'm not a fan of kids so young having to deal with this type of thing but at least we're seeing a lot less of it now in 4th gen

Quote from selfmate

interesting....those with the means and access to the production bear the risk of the consequences...fair point

so what risk do the idols bear then?

Sacrificing their youth and sometimes health. No debut even after years of training (happens to majority) and eventual failure, leaving only few options for their future.

Quote from Noemi

Sacrificing their youth and sometimes health. No debut even after years of training (happens to majority) and eventual failure, leaving only few options for their future.

so no risk at all or should the company and idol come to some kind of (prearranged arrangement aka contract lol)

well if they don't debut then there should be some sort of contingency which should be well documented in the contract (ie. either the debt is wiped or some kind of cost mitigation) but shouldn't that be a factor for such persons to consider before they even take on the risk of being a kpop idol that literally more fail than succeed?

Quote from selfmate

so no risk at all or should the company and idol come to some kind of (prearranged arrangement aka contract lol)

well if they don't debut then there should be some sort of contingency which should be well documented in the contract (ie. either the debt is wiped or some kind of cost mitigation) but shouldn't that be a factor for such persons to consider before they even take on the risk of being a kpop idol that literally more fail than succeed?

Kids are roped into training as young as pre-teen. I don't think they even understand exactly what they are getting into. And I am not sure how much parents are involved when someone becomes a trainee because I have definitely heard stories where kids became trainees/idols against their parents' wishes. Overall, kpop is an industry that benefits off of idealistic kids while having little consideration for their wellbeing. And for me, I see a contrast with Thai entertainment industry, where companies work around their artist's schedules at school/university. It's highly likely that if you pick a young celebrity at random, he has or is working towards a bachelors or masters that he can fall back on if he fails. I even know of two up and company idol actors that are studying medicine. If those companies can support young actors in completing their education, why not kpop? That's why I 100% hold the company responsible because trainees/failed idols are left worse off than when they joined. They can do this better but they don't because it's about company, not the kid.

And lol I went on a rant I think. A bit unrelated too perhaps.