This again...

From the rulebook 'how to know the people who love to talk PS and PS accuse idols for every possible feature are disingenuous and only want to shade', checklist tip #1 and #2:

#1 the K-pop 'fans' who love to talk PS and claim every possible feature of an idol has changed bc of PS love to discuss other idols, but not their own biases regarding PS changes

#2 the people with malicious intent will always use the same, most unflattering child/teen pics of the target idol to 'prove' their target has done PS, and will always ignore all the other child and teen pics of that idol that show that idol was already very pretty or had that feature already when they were young teens

Apply these guidelines to any PS discussion, and see how well and to what degree they stick.

Additionally, dragging a tweet with barely any views to here to trigger a discussion is already sus by itself.

Quote from Dreamer95

I really wish the former Cube CEO would take Chowon with him and debut her in Kiss Of Life

I wasn't even aware that the former Cube CEO had left Cube. Was he a JYP/LSM/YG type of figure, where he was the main figurehead of the company? When did he leave? And who's running the company now, is it someone new?

I wasn't aware that Kiss of Life had that connection to Cube, I'll look them up.

And yeah, I do think that Cube has an issue with managing their groups effectively, on top of that I think they're severely underusing Chowon: making someone else leader of Lightsum while Chowon's the oldest, making Nayoung the main vocalist of LS while she ranked lower than Chowon in PD48 and trying to make Nayoung happen as the visual/center/face of the group, even when she can't operate on the level of a Wonyoung, Jennie, Yoona/Taeyeon, Suzy or Soyeon.

Where as Chowon, who had shown to be able to operate on top tier level all by herself when she had no one helping her and everyone underestimating her, is put in the backseat and her potential neglected.

Quote from BlackpinkHouse

I just dont see it with her. She's not a cant miss talent, the way folks were hyping her up back when she was mentioned as one of the girls rigged out, i expected literal Beyonce and Michael Jackson wrapped into one idol. She's talented and has a distinctive look, but i'm not sure she would have fit in Izone's elegant/cutesy image.

Like others already mentioned, I think that's more a case of lack of imagination and you already getting familiar and attached to this version of the group, making you unable to see how IZone also could have worked with other people in the group.

Without mentioning all the obvious names, other IZone members were unlikely to fit either the elegant or the cutesy side or have the stage presence when they were still in their PD48 phase - but the company behind IZone made it work.

And Chowon has already shown with Lightsum to be able to fit the cute/elegant concept well.

It's all simply a matter of styling and practice.

Unless you think that Chowon wouldn't have fit IZone because she was the darkest skinned candidate in PD48? (Which I think honestly is 1 of the main reasons that the PDs selected Chowon to get rid of in favor of the paid-for candidates; some subconcious Korean prejudice against darker skinned people that they are or deserve less, why else go after a #6 ranker?).

But the typical Korean skin whitening has solved that issue, as you can see how light her skin is in Lightsum.

Personally, I think Chowon could have fit as well in IZone as Eunbi - both had a more sexy, girl crush aura - and fit better than a number of other IZone members.

This popped up in my youtube recommendations: apparently our vocal fairy queen Wendy performed a couple of songs live with an orchestra a couple of days ago, in the spirit of Christmas

Apparently she has done this performance at least 2 times, since I see 2 different outfits, and she sang the following songs:

- Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas

- When this Rain Stops

- My Grownup Christmas List

For those who haven't seen and listened to it yet, enjoy

and this is the same as the second performance, but taken from another angle

ReveluvTaglist

Unfortunately, Chowon has suffered from massive strokes of bad luck or misfortune.

If PD48 had been a year sooner of (G)I-dle debuted a year later, Chowon could have joined (G)I-dle, she would have fit the group and concepts like a glove and as a power maknae, with her distinctive vocals and strong stage presence, would have certainly contributed significantly to the group.

But she missed that boat.

Additionally, the corrupt PDs singled her out to make room for the bribed and paid-for candidates that were added to IZ*One, and this has massively veered her career off course onto another, and unfortunately far less successful, path.

If you see how the IZ*One members that were the likeliest to have been added due to the PD's corruption, have enjoyed either being in 2 very successful groups or have successful solo projects, then it's certainly very unfortunate that Chowon could have had this, but didn't.

This is unfortunate in multiple ways for her.

I think she has the uniqueness and talents that could have made her one of the big ones - but fate intervened, leaving most of her potential unused and neglected.

When survival shows were new and looked fresh and innovative, then of course it was a good move to hold those survival shows, since they were watched a lot and the artists and candidates that won enjoyed a great boost of popularity and success right from the start.

But groups from survival shows stand and fall with the popularity of the survival show they came from, so if the show doesn't do well, the group can't profit from the initial popularity boost and built-in fanbase size.

Tbh, I wouldn't have expected all the BP members to obtain the level of fame and popularity that they did, it's not as if they're the most extraordinary or exceptional idols compared to other idols - they're great each in their own way, but not unique in those ways.

So if it could happen to them, it could have happened to others like Tzuyu.

But on the other hand, others don't have YG. JYP's promotion/brand building capabilities are different from YG's, and however much people like to underestimate and trashtalk YG, it's YG's approach and branding choices that helped many of their groups become big globally, especially in the West.

JYP can't do it like YG has been able to.

If I had to guess, then other than YG I would expect that HYBE would be able to get some of their female artists to achieve BP levels of fame and popularity in the West.

They got exposed for the corrupt stuff they'd been pulling off for years in their survival shows, so I hope not.

If another company would start up something like PD48, that would be better.

Everyone skipping Blackjacks from 2nd gen worst fandoms are suffering from a serious case of amnesia or denial

The toxic shit that ELF and Blackjacks were constantly involving themselves with in their jealousy/envy and overprotectiveness was incomparable.

It's been worse on AKP, it's gotten better (but also quieter).

I used to find OH pretty great with diversity of opinions in the past, but yeah, after that forum disappearance for half a year it hasn't been the same since and it'll be gone for good after this month anyway.

I think for all 3 groups it will depend heavily on the song and the level of promotion

Usually a group can have an edge when they're among the most popular groups (in SK), their previous songs of their previous 1-2 comebacks were hit songs, or their company had a reputation of delivering hit songs (like YG in 2nd gen) => all these can make people check out new songs.

But those aren't the case here (anymore), so it'll purely depend on the song and promotion (and apparently, Tiktok?).

Quote from lialve

It’s a matter of opinion. Personally I don’t agree that Chowon or Kaeun would fit the group. Chowon is doing similar concept in her group, but it doesn’t hit. Karin also seems to mature for izone concept. It might be true that there were bribes, but at the same time it could be that they didn’t accept all bribes, just of the trainees they were okay with. There’s no way to really know

As an additional comment on this one: Chowon did a similar concept in her Cube group and has shown she can fit in with that sort of concepts, that's all that counts. Whether it was a success or not is not on her, that's on Cube and the song they chose.

As for the PD's rigging, no, I don't think they had a wide choice of bribes and candidates of bribing companies, I think it was just those few candidates of just those few companies.

But what was the PD's own choice was the actually valid candidates that needed to get booted.

Think about it: they didn't just simply go for the #11 and #12. They went for Kaeun and Chowon, specifically.

I think they chose them because they either thought they could get away with it because those two were more acceptable choices, or because in the PDs' opinion those fit the group the least.

Kaeun, the PD's could use the 'too old' argument, and in the show you'll notice that suddenly in 1 of the last episodes, a jury comment pops up in how Kaeun was maybe too old for cute concepts.

Chowon, she was the most dark skinned of the remaining candidates, and she had been an outlier for a long time before her epic rise.

We'll never know how things would've been if the PDs hadn't rigged things or what exactly happened in the background, of course. But some things jump out regardless, and 1 of them was the actually valid candidates these PDs opted to remove.

Babymonster have only just debuted, how can people even tell? Does Babymonster have that much pre-debut content that's available or such?

Quote from Daisy_Queen

She was famous for having a lot of work done even before her accident.

If she wants plastic surgery, power to her. She's running the same rat race everyone else is where talent isn't enough.

She looks pretty and that's the goal so good for her. Provided its her choice ofc

Incorrect. She was being accused by netizens and K-pop fans of having a lot of work done, when most of the 'proof' that was used could've been ascribed to other causes, like photoshop edits, certain make up/styling etc.

If you want to see what having a lot of work done really looks like after a couple of years, take a look at 2NE1's Bom.

I'm not saying that Wendy did or didn't have PS, or that it's wrong for any idol to do so. I'm just saying that many of the so called examples and 'evidence' used, in her case as well as with other idols, are often suspect or bluntly false or moments that could (and often should) be ascribed to other explanations than PS.

Tbh, it's starting to get a bit annoying how netizens and k-pop fans ignore every photoshop edit, weight loss/gain, style change etc and ascribe everything to PS.

What's up with k-pop fans?

They can't tell when something's sung live or simply different audio recording, they can't tell all the different causes that can influence looks and simply blame everything on PS, they can't tell what's fake news or rumors and what's facts...

That one quote says it all:

"girl shows up with a new face every 2-3 business days are we surprised"

... really?! People really believe that's how PS works?! So, make up and styling and special photoshoot edits don't exist anymore?

So, how do these people think PS works: she looks one way, then inbetween the everyday appointments does a quick PS and looks another way, only to do yet another quick PS after a few days and looks the same way as she did before again? Right...

Quote from lialve

It’s a matter of opinion. Personally I don’t agree that Chowon or Kaeun would fit the group. Chowon is doing similar concept in her group, but it doesn’t hit. Karin also seems to mature for izone concept. It might be true that there were bribes, but at the same time it could be that they didn’t accept all bribes, just of the trainees they were okay with. There’s no way to really know

Quote from lialve

I never denied it? There could’ve been more people who tried to bribe, maybe mnet didn’t accept every bribe. It’s not proof that they didn’t care about the line up imo

Yuri is the main vocal and there is a rumor that her votes were fake. Same with Chaewon who turned out to be one of the most popular.

Ofc it’s still bad that it happened and it’s good this came to light but it didn’t necessarily make the line up worse imo

It worked out in the end, in that the group had success and that the rigged members gained their own popularity.

But it worked out, not because the bribed PD's were some genius matchmakers that had found the ultimate formula and the rigged added members were the final elements to create the perfect group.

No, it worked out in spite of those PDs corruption based rigging, for which they got sentenced btw.

It also doesn't mean Izone was the ultimate best ever possible combination of people to create this group with the people available.

K-pop fans got familiar and attached to this version of Izone.

But it doesn't mean other combinations wouldn't have worked out as well, if not better.

And even if the rigging didn't necessarily make the line up worse, it doesn't mean the original set up wouldn't have made the line up work as equally good, if not better.

Wow, people resorting to deflecting and shading other groups just because they dislike OP and dislike 1 of their bias groups getting criticised even for the slightest thing => because criticism on the choreo, come on, what are we even talking about

Some people are way too sensitive.

Quote from Kouss

But i agree, i think the no music shows announcement shows insecurity from YG. Initpicked Giselle to hell during debut, but i was only allow to do that, because SM released dance practices and went to music shows, with fixed camera’s and fancams to see mistakes/differences.

Baemon isn’t even polished enough to do that, and the switching choreography???

YG was just very unprepared to debut and it’s interesting because he delayed them for so long.

I noticed this too, it's an YG habit.

As soon as YG or his people think attending a music show - or any show - wouldn't boost a group's image or could even result in a negative impact on a group's image, they simply won't let their groups attend.

Like how in the past they didn't let their groups attend a music show where they weren't sure they'd win that show - because standing on that stage while being 2nd and another group wins would make them look like 'losers'.

Quote from Disevidence

So that's fine, - make a survival group that doesn't have public voting then.

Cant have your cake and eat it too - if you want public voting, abide by the public votes. If you don't want to abide by public votes, don't have public voting.

Mnet could hare purely made P48 (or any produce) jury voted or mentor voted or expert voted only if they wanted to.

Also this.

I disagree.

The members that got canned weren't any worse in the talent department than the ones who got added due to the PDs accepting bribes => let's not gaslight the issue here, it wasn't some rational decision of the people involved in the selecting process that were completely objective in rigging the ranking out of some noble motivation to have the best group possible. No, they got offered bribes by some companies to let their candidates join, regardles whether there were better, more suited and more talented candidates for the group or not.

It was bribery and corruption, nothing else.

As for the members that got canned: Gaeun had solid After School experience and had shown how talented she was, and the same applied to Chowon, who was considered a dark horse ace because of her surprising stellar talents, like her distinctive vocals as well as her stage presence.

Whether they'd have fit into the group would have simply been a matter of styling: it's not as if Lightsum haven't done Izone type concepts.

Well, they did it in 2nd gen, and somehow it worked: Super Junior, DBSK (TVXQ), The Grace, SNSD, f(x) and SHINee, 3 boy groups and 3 girl groups, all debuted in the span of 5 years and practically all of them had successful careers.

HYBE are doing the same in the current gen, debuting a lot of groups within a short time span.

Quote from YamaChwan

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Only national hit girl group songs reach this level of Melon likes. I just checked and only Hype Boy (282k likes) and Love Dive (245k likes) have made it into this group since this tweet.

It DEFINITELY should've won SOTY

Not sure if Red Flavor could've won SOTY with competition as IU around. But Red Flavor certainly created a buzz in SK among the general public, and it delivered them the title 'Summer Queens' in SK.