The reason most SM artists don't do well internationally

    Is because they lack charisma on stage. notice how the most popular groups internationally are ones that are known for their performance skills.

    I remember during the 2nd generation, even though the groups had mostly basic choreographies they still had charisma and looked like they enjoyed themselves on stage which automatically makes people enjoy the performances more, this also coincided with SM groups being at the top both domestically and internationally. Up until bigbang blew up with Fantastic Baby, tvxq and suju had the biggest touring power and snsd goes without saying.

    But then things went down hill sometime during the 3rd generation. exo had all the necessary technical skills but their performances were hit or miss, rv were so dull on stage, nct has some charismatic members but only dream look like they truly enjoy performing while the other units make it look like a chore, and now aespa are practically the least charismatic group in SM's history.


    what went wrong exactly? Is it an increased focus on perfection that killed their idols' individuality and passion?

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    1. they should stop with that kwangya, lore concept bullshit and ridiculous lyricses

    2. make them write their music or invest in some real good rappers, cus rappers have passion and charisma on stage

    Some people do too much on sm's international popularity. It's very normal. No kpop group except bts and blackpink does well irrespective of what hybe stans and jyp stans want to say

    I’m not sure it’s the reason for SM artists not being popular internationally but agree that their stage presence is on a downhill slope


    TVXQ ot5 and Shinee are the two SM boy groups with the best stage presence.


    Suju and Exo are pretty good. Suju gets the job done and EXO are a hit or miss. Exo also have Kai which helps a lot.


    NCT has multiple good members but they also have multiple mediocre ones and they lack group chemistry. Dream has the best chemistry but lacks 127’s charisma. Dream still look like rookies on stage despite being active for 6 years (it’s gotten a little better since Mark returned).


    No SM girl group except SNSD have good stage presence. Fx, RV and Aespa are all meh.

    SM intends to bring the American GP the most authentic Kpop experience and that entails crazy music. They have no interest in catering to people's taste and simply letting people come to them but its not going anywhere. Like SM pls reach into your America reject song bag put some Rnb on and get your groups a semi decent hit lmao!

    US is not the same as international. SM acts are as/more popular than the majority of groups across other parts of the world and particularly in Asia.


    The only groups that are significantly more popular than SM groups in the US are those who's music is more similar to western music.


    Only BTS and Blackpink can really claim to be head and shoulders above the rest in US popularity.

    Their music is countrified

    This is all bs. And I tell you the secret why.


    The same (type of) people that are shitting now on groups like SM groups because they don't have the same results as BTS are the exact same (type of) people that were shitting on groups like SM groups 10 years ago.


    K-pop groups dancing robotically? Having no stage presence? Having no talent?

    Girl, don't make me laugh. Every single argument was used to SM groups and other groups, but especially SM groups, by fans of other groups than the ones getting bashed.


    K-pop fans laughed when vocal analysts refused to hear out Super Junior singers, because why would you want to listen to singers as weak and talentless as Super Junior?

    SNSD were constantly called talentless and 'visuals only' that couldn't dance, couldn't sing, and that had zero stage presence.

    SM groups as SNSD, SHINee and Super Junior were constantly mocked as talentless and having no stage presence, and entire hordes of fans believed it.

    Just like some other groups were constantly accused of being robotic that weren't 2NE1 or Big Bang (YG stans were the loudest back then of claiming only their bias group and other YG groups had stage presence and real artists).



    So yeah, this whole stick of 'SM groups now having no stage presence', it's just current kpop fans using the same old tricks others were using 10+ years ago. It wasn't true then, it isn't true now.

    It's just people shading groups they dislike or feel jealous and threatened by.


    There's nothing wrong with the talent or stage presence of SM groups now, just like there was nothing wrong with the talent and stage presence of SNSD and Super Junior, when they were both being accused even when it was an obvious lie and SNSD were at the top of their game and the most internationally popular girl group.


    Sometimes a company is very successful with how a group is received, and sometimes less so.

    It's not for nothing that no other groups from HYBE nor YG are as successful as BTS or BP.

    Is just cuz of the music. I don’t think international fans are loving sm sound as much as other company’s music.


    Dont try to connect it to their stage presence or charisma and whatever

    sm lets their groups release music that mostly kpop fans would like and not people who aren't so much into kpop or aren't used to it. In fact nct is what made stay away from kpop until I found out there's more groups that don't make music like them, not just bts. And many aespa stans have been kpop fans for a pretty long time and just to stan 2nd gen groups. That's why their popularity in western countries is less, their music is too 'different'. Some of them are also marketed as manufactured which doesn't help. Not to forget, bad english lyrics that many sm songs have

    Quote from Seared Casserole of Venison (806)

    2. make them write their music or invest in some real good rappers, cus rappers have passion and charisma on stage

    Can't say I agree with that since the NCT rappers (even the bad ones) have several writing credits, especially Mark who even has producing credits.

    Also, TXT and Enhypen don't have real rappers either (Enhypen don't even write their lyrics at all) but they're much more popular in the west.



    Besides of the current bad music sm is releasing and the stupidity of kwangya, the reason their artists don't do well in the west simply boils down to their groups looking too "idol like". Western fans like to stan faux edgy idols who pretend to reject the idol label and have "not like the other boys/girls" personas. Most sm idols are too polished, boring and controlled for their taste.

    The argument of stage presence is invalid because everyone has a different definition of stage presence. You have people who will think one group has great stage presence while others will think they're cringy try hards and people who will think another group is dull on stage while others will think they're restrained and elegant.

    And it's not about the rappers because the NCT rappers (including the bad ones) have several writing credits, especially Mark.

    Also, TXT and Enhypen don't have real rappers either (Enhypen don't even write their lyrics or music at all) but they're much more popular in the west.


    Besides of the current bad music sm is releasing and the stupidity of kwangya, the reason their artists don't do that well in the west and never did simply boils down to their groups being too "idol like". Western fans like to stan faux edgy idols who pretend to reject the idol label and have "not like the other boys/girls" personas. Most sm idols are too polished, boring and controlled for their taste.

    i don´t care what young people say


    i still hate the nct (copy form japanese sistem) multitude of members group. HATE IT


    they might sale a lot but nobody who is important on western industry f**king cares. They go to paid programs, like bts and Blackpink (talkshows , you know) ...but do you see any cellebrity ever talking about them? no, only their fans pay 8 times for those albums


    and Aespa...please, they do the moves on stage. With a face that they are going to <X any moment.


    also lets say sm do care a lot about national fandom, and the attitude of their idols is shaped for that. the think they are hip enough to be a great international group, well exo was, kind of, but they only hit really hard on asia

    stop with the lies and BS


    sm artist literally can chart in bb200 and bb global like others.

    Quote from Seared Creamy Duck (320)

    stop with the lies and BS


    sm artist literally can chart in bb200 and bb global like others.

    And freefall miserably. Also on bb "global" chart countries like japan and south are weighted way more than most markets because of revenue so they get hardcarried by them. It's internationally still but hardly global

    Depends on what you mean by 'international'.


    If you mean outside of SK, most SM groups are huge in different parts of Asia, so they are huge internationally in that respect.


    If you mean to the west, SM has never seemed interested in pushing their groups west until NCT and Super M. Even when groups travelled in America prior to these groups they did the bare bones of promo/interviews etc.


    SM has always been more focused on the Asian charts/fans and never seemed to care about the western market.

    Company stan detected :laughs:

    Quote from Breaded Honey Turkey (977)

    Some people do too much on sm's international popularity. It's very normal. No kpop group except bts and blackpink does well irrespective of what hybe stans and jyp stans want to say

    Quote from Fire-Grilled Casserole of Duck (187)

    US is not the same as international. SM acts are as/more popular than the majority of groups across other parts of the world and particularly in Asia.


    The only groups that are significantly more popular than SM groups in the US are those who's music is more similar to western music.


    Only BTS and Blackpink can really claim to be head and shoulders above the rest in US popularity.

    True.

    But like said, not even HYBE stans and YG stans will admit that all other K-pop groups are doing equally bad compared with BTS and BP.

    i can think of two main things: sm groups image is usually too polished in a way, like they do feel like the peak of perfectly-idol-like manufactured image and their songs usually feel too kpoppish too with a few exceptions like rv's bad boy, psycho or exo's love shot.

    stage presence is not an objective thing though?

    Without SM to complain about in some way, could anons survive?


    Discuss.

    All SM artists do well internationally even when they are not aiming at international appeal in their promotions (other than Japan and a few more countries close to their own).


    As said earlier, the US is not the world.

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    All SM artists do well internationally even when they are not aiming at international appeal in their promotions (other than Japan and a few more countries close to their own).


    As said earlier, the US is not the world.

    it has the biggest music market in the world though, so don't dismiss it?

    When SM does make an attempt at the U.S. market, it's done all wrong too. Either because the music is wrong, or it's just the wrong idea. The concept of SuperM isn't bad, but the music is terrible even by kpop standards. Aespa's thanksgiving performance was not only bad, it didn't fit the actual holiday at all.


    So at least as far as the American market goes, SM doesn't seem like they have any idea about how to approach it at all. None of their groups even have a sound that would appeal outside the kpop niche, and the bad spotify streams are just reflecting that.

    Soomanie oppa living in some people's mind rent free

    It’s not just the West. I will consider Japan too since it’s 2nd biggest music industry. They are behind Hybe & JYP or even YG in Japan. Hybe BGs( BTS, SVT, Enhypen, Txt) are top 4 in Japan , even TRS is more popular than NCT in Japan. It’s only EXO who is somehow popular. For GG, it’s Twice, BP & Itzy. Though, I think SM artists biggest market apart from SK is China but that’s it for top 10 music industry. Though it’s true that BTS & BP are miles away from the rest, Hybe & JYP are the one dominating US BB. All Hybe BGs entered BB ( top 20 above) while SKZ just earned top stop & Twice also charted in BB.


    I agree SM music is too “ localize” for my taste. They are doing well in China coz they usually have Chinese members & coz their looks suit Chinese taste.

    The thing that I find funny is all their groups are supposed to be big in China and make up 50 to 60 percent of their sales in China, but like none of them do particularly well digitally there.


    Like never chart high on anything but the Kpop charts like everyon else and never getting any digital certifications. Strange.

    red velvet is doing well internationally. Their Spotify numbers are really good

    Man, the circle never ends.

    In the Once-Blinks fanwars not that long ago Blinks were dissing Once and TWICE for being a 'local group', and how JYPE groups dont have an international sound and was too cute etc etc.

    And now that Blinks are in hibernation and TWICE are doing well in the US, it's time for other groups to get accused of being local and not having an international sound.

    And on and on it goes.

    Quote from Oven-Grilled Apple & Lavender Boar (812)

    When SM does make an attempt at the U.S. market, it's done all wrong too. Either because the music is wrong, or it's just the wrong idea. The concept of SuperM isn't bad, but the music is terrible even by kpop standards. Aespa's thanksgiving performance was not only bad, it didn't fit the actual holiday at all.


    So at least as far as the American market goes, SM doesn't seem like they have any idea about how to approach it at all. None of their groups even have a sound that would appeal outside the kpop niche, and the bad spotify streams are just reflecting that.

    It goes to show how much a proper, well thought out push can make a difference for groups to advance in the West.

    SuperM had the right idea, but the song just wasn't it, something like Superhuman or Boss would've been better.


    Also, proper partners help a lot. JYPE got involved with a major player Republic that knows the American market, add to that more mature sounding TWICE songs and poof, TWICE can't be accused of just being a local group anymore.


    I disagree with that no SM groups have a sound that appeals outside the kpop niche, I can think of several EXO and Red Velvet that have solid international appeal, Like Psycho and Bad Boy and Love Shot, and you can see in their 200-300M streams in Spotify.

    Aespa Next Level has 119M and Savage has 85M streams.

    ITZY ITM has 107M and LOCO has 107M streams.


    Ok. Why do people think that with such small gaps Aespa suck internationally while ITZY rule internationally?

    they thrive in a fandom driven sales and listeners. ever wonder why streams are so low.

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