Gender and kpop/fandom

Women's musical interests are always objectified to sexual desires, while men do not have their interests objectified

On every side women lose.

GGs with men in their companies who have complete control over them. And the difficulties they face.

BGs who are taboo because they appeal to the female gaze and ew that’s gay. Only brainless fangirls will support them. Again the irony.

"Women aren't allowed to want things the way men want the same things"- TS

someone show Teshub this thread the next time he posts SJW shit and then switches up and says "your oppa" all condescendingly to fangirls

Quote from MissBehave

Female interests in general aren't taken seriously. I thought it was a really good point how a lot of female interests are seen as something women should "grow out of" whereas you don't see the same kind of rhetoric around sports fandoms for example.

This article made a good point that female sexual desires are often derided and seen as overcoming sense while male sexual desires are more often accepted and mainstreamed.

https://wp.nyu.edu/steinhardt-appsych_opus/gender-in-fandom/

Products that are consumed by women are always considered low quality and childish. They usually use the argument that the main attraction of this product is something beautiful or sexual. Not that women don't have sexual interests over these products, in fact they can and should not be judged for this as men who have sexual interests over most of the things they consume but people don't care

I am a man and I am fully aware of my privileges when no one has offended my interests as they did my female friends who also like boygroups.

This is way too deep for kpop

Quote from Armedryu

This is way too deep for kpop

No, it's not

Quote from quarkie

Sports - defend it until you die mentality and obsession with players/teams - Awesome

Where I live, adult males literally kill each other in mass fights after soccer games to "defend their faves". Every other month you get news about something like this.

Still, fangirls get dragged for enjoying whatever they enjoy, even if no one is killed in the process.

Quote from Ves

I want to make it clear that this thread is not about making all men seem like garbage. That's as problematic as what spurred this thread. No, the problem is IMO the societal and cultural values that have instilled this belief in ALL of us and many have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Unfortunately, power corrupts, so select people will try to keep this going well into the next generation and beyond. It's up to the rest of us to denounce and fight that progression - and the first step is through opening people's eyes.

Exactly, some men act as if they've been posed as villains and it's just a matter of recognizing an issue and respecting women's tastes.

Quote from alexS

It's so easy to put humans against each other.

Easiest way to control them.

Be it sexism, be it racism, be it whatever.

Honestly? If you wanna blame somebody? Blame those old farts that hold the reins of power.

Women? Getting the low end of the deal? The old farts.

Men? Getting attacked by women? The old farts.

Don't even get me started on racism.

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those old farts that hold the reins of power are all white men

Great articles, and something that should be addressed more often. I hope people don't take this as an attack on them if they displayed this behavior but as an opportunity to recognize where they themselves have partaken in this way of thinking themselves (I have too) and learn and grow from it

Growing up in a misogynistic culture, sexism is deeply rooted in many aspects of our thinking in many ways we wouldn't even expect and it's all just about taking responsibility and unlearning it

Quote from Armedryu

This is way too deep for kpop

It's not about kpop, it's about how actions within the kpop community (and elsewhere) reflect on how we view women. If you don't have the capacity or want to understand why women are upset right now, stay out of it

Quote from alexS

It's so easy to put humans against each other.

Easiest way to control them.

Be it sexism, be it racism, be it whatever.

Honestly? If you wanna blame somebody? Blame those old farts that hold the reins of power.

Women? Getting the low end of the deal? The old farts.

Men? Getting attacked by women? The old farts.

Don't even get me started on racism.

Display More

I think you've completely misunderstood what the women in here are saying right now. They're not attacking men (at least OP wasn't and the other posts I've read), they're talking about how we as culture disvalue women and thus their interests and view it/them as lesser

Sometimes we need to take responsibility for the culture we help contribute to and change our ways (I'm guilty of whats being discussed right now actually). Being told you're wrong is not always an attack, it's an opportunity to change

I hate to see feminism once again be misinterpreted as men vs women

Quote from alexS

ah no, I was just saying that it is intended in order to make sure that men and women don't band together.

Eh, it's a dream of mine when humans finally become one.

But I am sure that will never happen as long as I'm alive.

Yeah, but I also disagree with just blaming it on the old and rich in power. Yes, they're responsible for a lot of things but not everything. When something is on a cultural level like this, it's also on us everyday people to make changes. It's the everyday people who perpetuate this way of thinking and keep it running, what we need to do is educate ourselves and others and change that. The exact situation that just caused this thread to be made wasn't by a billionaire, it was by a normal forum-using kpop fan

Blaming it on the powerful is easy but it won't change anything or help women in any shape or form because 1) the powerful don't care and 2) this is on every individual's way of thinking, the rich and powerful don't control our thoughts

We can only band together and change the world if we ourselves are actually trying and changing on an individual level

Quote from MissBehave

Men and women should be able to come together under feminism. Feminism was never about getting power over men or flipping spots. It's about everyone being equal.

feminism also helps men, not least because it breaks many stereotypes of toxic masculinity

Okay, sorry. I didnt even read lmao

Quote from Ves

I want to make it clear that this thread is not about making all men seem like garbage. That's as problematic as what spurred this thread. No, the problem is IMO the societal and cultural values that have instilled this belief in ALL of us and many have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Unfortunately, power corrupts, so select people will try to keep this going well into the next generation and beyond. It's up to the rest of us to denounce and fight that progression - and the first step is through opening people's eyes.

Not all men energy.

If you feel the need to say that first line we have already lost

Agreed. I have experienced this a lot. Every interest that is popularised by girls/women are made fun of all the time.

Quote from Litto

Women's musical interests are always objectified to sexual desires, while men do not have their interests objectified

I am not sure about this, Male Kpop fans are often assumed to be perverts or weird, and Men liking Female Singers/Performers in general is almost always assumed to be because of their Sexual Desires

I think this is as much about Hetero-normativity and applies beyond Music to all forms of Entertainment

Here are some assumptions I think most people have;

Male fan of Male Tennis = "he likes Tennis"

Male fan of Female Tennis = "he watches because he thinks they are hot"

Female Fan of Male Tennis = "she is just trying to impress boys by acting like she is into sports"

Female fan of Female Tennis = "she is all about Women empowerment, probably a Feminist"

Male fan of a "Masculine" Male Singer = "he is a Fan of that Artists Music"

Male fan of a "Feminine" Male Singer = "he is Gay"

Male fan of Female Singer = "he thinks she is hot, or he is Gay no middle ground"

Female fan of Male Singer = "crazy girls obsessing over a handsome boy"

Female Fan of Female Singer = "she likes her Music"

I felt I had to split the "Male fan of Male Singer" into 2 categories because there does appear to be a stark difference in perception based on who the Singer is and the Mainstream perception of that artist, and I put quotation marks around Masculine and Feminine for obvious reasons.

Quote from Ves

I just don't want it to go down that road again where it becomes male vs female.

Good men will not take offense to “men are garbage” 100% of all men who do so are bigoted. Pandering to them is a waste of time. And actually defeats the entire purpose of having such discussions.

Quote from Ves

I don't think it does. I'm not apologizing, I'm trying to shoot it down before we come to that and waste time on it. I hear you, so let's not waste time on this.

For me responses like yours undermine the discussion as well as those other useless empty vessels who should just be ignored so that’s why I want to explicitly call it out.

I encourage people to generalize and write about men in the collective. It weeds out the bigots in the quickest way possible.

The entire point of such debates is to make those type of men feel uncomfortable and called out. Because they are the actual problem. When you give an out like “not all men” it’s not nearly as effective.