The lack of value of idols in the industry and how fans contribute

I dont really have a response to your main point but as to the JYP member unknown album buying thing, this isnt that surprising. JYPE has a brand image especially when it comes to girl groups. JYPE has never released a girl group that wasn't at some point a huge success. Wonder Girls, Miss A, Twice, Itzy, Niziu. They have a brand image especially when it comes to girlgroups just like Apple or other huge companies. People expect JYP girl groups to be a big hit. So they are quite popular right off the bat because of this expectation. I think the fact that they can get so many sales from an unreleased group is a reason they would value their groups because it shows that people have a certain expectation of them. If they dont deliver then that expectation will go down and they eventually will not be able to do this kind of tactic. This is all marketing and brand image in my opinion not really dealing with the value of the artists.

Quote from stan12345

A company isn't going to consistently stock a short shelf life product if it can't be replaced easily enough, especially if the company has near zero revenue diversification (see JYPE)

But this was my point though. The shelf life is a good example to show how the idol system does not give much respect to the idols.

I’m talking about you using the example that people have already bought the albums of the gg before they even debut. I’ll chalk that as off as company stans and promo.

Quote from stan12345

Was going to post about this in another thread but thought I'd just make a new thread.

Stanning brands (i.e. different labels) in kpop isn't an unknown thing and it can lead to groups having a lot of support/fans before debut. This isn't too surprising if groups have a TV show/have had members teased for years. But seeing the new tactic JYPE have undertaken really puts into perspective why the value and lifespan of idols on average is so low and subsequently why its damaging. Not just at a kpop level but even with regards to the public in SK, idols are near the bottom of the ladder against actors, variety stars, non-kpop soloists/groups etc.

They're not massively respected outside of a few with the public as so many groups get churned out so often that there's a limited identity to them outside of an odd viral song/dance.

The sales of the unreleased gg at JYPE is an example of why idols are devalued within kpop and I'll use JYPE in my example as they take full advantage of that with this new tactic. Why would any large company value their idols (on average) when they can put a no-name/member group out with nothing announced and sell 60k off the bat? If JYPE can sell 60k for a group no-one knows nothing about think about what the other bigger companies could do.

Day6 for example have spent 6 years building a fanbase with a lot of work/releases to sell 100k for the first time this year. You then get a new girl group that people know nothing about other than them being from JYPE who already sell more than half of that, without a debut. You don't know the size of the group, the concept, the members etc.

If you're JYPE, when it comes to negotiating Day6/ the members renewals, where does that leave the group in terms of bargaining power? The pure supply of idols into the industry already makes it a low value position. So by now selling completely unknown groups how disposable does that make idols look? it doesn't matter if they sing the kind of music you like, if they're good performers etc.

Not even Day6 but lets say Twice don't fully renew but some want to stay on as soloists. Not every Twice member as a soloist is selling 100k or is going to be a hit with the public so their stock is already down. The company then also has the knowledge that instead of giving 2/3 members nice deals (which they'd be more than entitled to go for), they can just put out a girl group in 6 months time and replace the revenue those 3 members would bring in. That new girl group is also 7 years worth of income who you can give a pittance to as they have near zero negotiating power as rookies.

There's already limited loyalty between companies and their idols and fans supporting projects such as this Blind Package just accentuates that.

I know it's just business but that doesn't detract from the fact that it's bad for idols in general that fans support such endeavors. Kpop fans complain about the short lifespan of idols, the 7 year curse, why idols leave to pursue solo careers etc without realising they are a big contributor towards that.

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I thought the soloists didnt stand a chance against idols in terms of album sales?

Hmm... I'm trying to understand your perspective, but I'm finding it difficult. If I understand you correctly, the objection is that "fans buying a unknown group's album even before they know the group" reveals the company's relative bargaining power to be stronger than that of the veteran idols. But, for any big or established company, hasn't that relative power imbalance always been there? Stuff like the Blind Package didn't create the situation, it simply revealed with clearer numbers what has always been present.

It might be different for idols from a smaller agency - say, something like MAMAMOO and RBW or GFriend and Source Music (before they got bought over by HYBE). But once you have an established institutional reputation, the relative power balance always tilts in favor of the company. No artist is indispensable. Especially when you have revenue streams coming in to the company from multiple sources.

The analogy I can think of is, say, aspiring actors or directors in Hollywood versus a big-name studio brand like the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Plenty of MCU fans would go to watch any MCU movie even if they have no previous exposure to the actors or the comic characters' IP, because they trust the company brand and the studio's executives and system's ability to produce quality products. (Guardians of the Galaxy was a good example of this.)

However, there is a prerequisite for this situation to work. The company's brand has to be especially solid enough for the public to take any product it releases as worthy of trust. (See the DCEU for the opposite example of what happens if your products and company reputation is bad.) The question is, of course, how many K-pop companies can establish that kind of brand loyalty? I would argue there are relatively few. As a JYPE exceptionalist, I could argue that JYPE is one of those few that could, because of the years and years of built-up trust in its' girl groups (100% success rate in girl groups is unparalleled in the industry). They probably couldn't do it for boy groups. SM Ent could do it for boy groups, but may face difficulties with girl groups. As for the other companies, I'm not too sure. So, I would argue that this kind of marketing strategy being workable is still limited to only a few special cases, not indicative of the industry as a whole.

However, let's come back to the relative value of veteran idols versus companies in their bargaining power. I think it might be worthwhile to consider what goes into determining the bargaining power at the negotiation table. And for this, I'm using generalities for all idols, not just JYPE ones.

For veteran idols:

+ Ability to generate revenue through sales of music

+ Ability to generate revenue through sales of merchandise

+ Ability to generate revenue through touring / concerts / events

+ Ability to generate revenue through sponsorships / advertisements

+ Ability to generate revenue through other skills (e.g. songwriting, hosting, acting, etc.)

+ Ability to generate reputation through awards and music show wins

+ Ability to generate reputation through other newsworthy events (charitable donations, etc.)

+ Increased performance ability due to experience. (Lower risk of failure)

- Lowered appeal due to age / military service

- Higher desire for other life choices besides career (e.g. marriage, etc.)

- Increased fatigue from idol life

- High supply of new / rookie idols (industry-wide condition due to expansion of K-pop)

For management companies:

+ Ability to create promotional events / materials for artist

+ Ability to supply songs for artist to perform

+ Ability to use networks to gain publicity for artist (e.g. TV show appearances, etc.)

+ Various benefits from company facilities (e.g. cafeteria, housing, studios, etc.)

+ Reputation from managing other successful idols

+ / - Support for artist's creative freedom and direction (this one depends on company culture and policy, as well as artist's desire for creative expression.)

+ / - Income distribution and other benefits / contractual obligations in first contract.

+/ - "Pedigree" of being trained by company (differs by company, as to what the company's training methods is known for amongst the industry.)

+ / - Treatment of other artists under their company.

What the Blind Package simply did was reveal that JYPE's "Reputation from managing other successful idols" and "Pedigree of being trained by company" is extremely high. That strengthens the company's bargaining power, but the other question you have to ask is: what about the other factors? (For example, the "ability to supply songs for artist to perform" has relatively little benefit for artists like Day6 or Stray Kids, but a very important question for groups like Blackpink's future negotiation with YG Ent, for example.)

You seem to want to argue that fans should not be supporting such initiatives, as it strengthens the company's relative bargaining power. But that relative bargaining power is partly based on the company's reputation for managing other successful idols. The success of those other idols also increases their bargaining power at the table. So that produces a deadlock. You can't NOT wish for idols to be successful. (Or rather, you CAN... but that's what we call akgae behaviour, and only works under conditions of a 'scarcity' promotional strategy... which is the one thing that JYP Entertainment artists don't suffer from, at least.)

I suppose what you CAN do is wish for veteran idols to move to a smaller, less-established agency, where they would hold greater bargaining power. Since the idols' ability to generate revenue should be greater than the company's ability to generate promotions / songs, and the company does not necessarily have an established reputation for managing other groups yet. So they would have to focus all their efforts on treating the artists' well enough to make up for their other insufficiencies. That's the natural path for veteran artists in the industry to take. But the question is, would that propel the artist to greater heights than being part of the Big 3 / 4? Probably not. But the corresponding freedom / treatment / relative peacefulness might make it worthwhile for the artists who are seeking a different work-life balance.

Quote from stan12345

The point of the thread is what buying a nameless group signals to companies and how that subsequently impacts the value of idols.

It won’t impact their value in anyway. It’s just hype. Their value as idols will be judged when they officially debut and they don’t make much impression

Quote from stan12345

Twice or whoever as a replacement, you can roll out two to replace lost income as getting fans is as easy as rolling out nameless groups

U think jyp's plan to success is pumping out more groups in the coming years? They aren't the only one with this plan. Hybe also has many groups planned. How many will debut is a different matter.

Quote from stan12345

You've missed the point. The easier/cheaper a product is to replace the less value it has, that's just a fact. The industry is too fast paced if you think they'll wait to see the eventual value of said new group when renewals are happening every other year.

They are still going to officially debut, people will listen to them due to the hype generated. And they will be judged whether their debut was successful or bland by the CONSUMERS. That’s what I meant by they will be judged and valued by the listeners as every artiste is. It’s not the company that gives value to them or you think the company will keep promoting a group no one wants to listen to??

Quote from dizzcity

But their combined sales from merchandise, royalties and other fees reached 105.44 trillion won in the same period.

That is a mistake in the article. It should be billion.

Note that the sentence immediately following the 105.44 trillion figure states: "YG alone earned 76.91 billion won in royalties and brand-related sales". If YG had sales of 76.91 billion, there's no way that SM+JYP+YG would have combined sales of 105.44 trillion.

Quote from wsoet

That is a mistake in the article. It should be billion.

Note that the sentence immediately following the 105.44 trillion figure states: "YG alone earned 76.91 billion won in royalties and brand-related sales". If YG had sales of 76.91 billion, there's no way that SM+JYP+YG would have combined sales of 105.44 trillion.

But that seems odd too. If it's 105.44 billion won, then YG's 76.91 billion makes up 72.9% of all K-pop merchandise sales among the Big 3. Which I highly doubt, considering SM and JYP's humongous merchandising machines. Nevertheless, since the billion figure seems to be more reasonable than the trillion figure (considering that they said elsewhere in the article that K-pop merchandise sales reached 150 billion won in the previous year), I'll take it on faith that the article was mistaken.

Quote from dizzcity

But that seems odd too. If it's 105.44 billion won, then YG's 76.91 billion makes up 72.9% of all K-pop merchandise sales among the Big 3. Which I highly doubt, considering SM and JYP's humongous merchandising machines. Nevertheless, since the billion figure seems to be more reasonable than the trillion figure (considering that they said elsewhere in the article that K-pop merchandise sales reached 150 billion won in the previous year), I'll take it on faith that the article was mistaken.

Yeah 72.9% does seem high, but then again, the article also states that the figure includes sales from YG's "fashion and cosmetics subsidiaries", which goes beyond what we think of as usual K-pop merchandise.

In addition, the article states that "the total sales of the South Korean music industry reached 2.87 trillion won in the first half of last year". So 2.87 trillion won encompasses all types of sales for all companies; thus, 105.44 trillion won for just Big Three merchandise sales doesn't make sense.

insightful

Quote from stan12345

Was going to post about this in another thread but thought I'd just make a new thread.

Stanning brands (i.e. different labels) in kpop isn't an unknown thing and it can lead to groups having a lot of support/fans before debut. This isn't too surprising if groups have a TV show/have had members teased for years. But seeing the new tactic JYPE have undertaken really puts into perspective why the value and lifespan of idols on average is so low and subsequently why its damaging. Not just at a kpop level but even with regards to the public in SK, idols are near the bottom of the ladder against actors, variety stars, non-kpop soloists/groups etc.

They're not massively respected outside of a few with the public as so many groups get churned out so often that there's a limited identity to them outside of an odd viral song/dance.

The sales of the unreleased gg at JYPE is an example of why idols are devalued within kpop and I'll use JYPE in my example as they take full advantage of that with this new tactic. Why would any large company value their idols (on average) when they can put a no-name/member group out with nothing announced and sell 60k off the bat? If JYPE can sell 60k for a group no-one knows nothing about think about what the other bigger companies could do.

Day6 for example have spent 6 years building a fanbase with a lot of work/releases to sell 100k for the first time this year. You then get a new girl group that people know nothing about other than them being from JYPE who already sell more than half of that, without a debut. You don't know the size of the group, the concept, the members etc.

If you're JYPE, when it comes to negotiating Day6/ the members renewals, where does that leave the group in terms of bargaining power? The pure supply of idols into the industry already makes it a low value position. So by now selling completely unknown groups how disposable does that make idols look? it doesn't matter if they sing the kind of music you like, if they're good performers etc.

Not even Day6 but lets say Twice don't fully renew but some want to stay on as soloists. Not every Twice member as a soloist is selling 100k or is going to be a hit with the public so their stock is already down. The company then also has the knowledge that instead of giving 2/3 members nice deals (which they'd be more than entitled to go for), they can just put out a girl group in 6 months time and replace the revenue those 3 members would bring in. That new girl group is also 7 years worth of income who you can give a pittance to as they have near zero negotiating power as rookies.

There's already limited loyalty between companies and their idols and fans supporting projects such as this Blind Package just accentuates that.

I know it's just business but that doesn't detract from the fact that it's bad for idols in general that fans support such endeavors. Kpop fans complain about the short lifespan of idols, the 7 year curse, why idols leave to pursue solo careers etc without realising they are a big contributor towards that.

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alternatively, think about how much damange an idol can do rather than how much value they can bring?

preparing, forming, producing content for, and marketing a group is expensive.

us$5 million + 2 years is a rough approximation for a new jype group.

one unprofessional idol can torch those investments in a day, along with future revenues.

(so ~us$400 million for twice.)

bigger firms have brand loyalty (like car makers, etc.).

but that also means they have more goodwill to lose, both with fans and investors.

for example, jype's market value is ~us$1.3bn now.

jihyo can probably wipe out us$100 million from jype's valuation if she really wanted to.

good idols have tremendous value just by not nuking an enterprise.

wait what!! But there's only 2 bigger companies than JYP only SM and YG...!!!